Let's Talk About Hell

[Der Alte]

The insistance on hell makes the effect of the crucifixion a very cruel event for billions. Think about it.

Before Jesus came, the wages of sin was death. The unrepentant man died (along with the rest of humanity).

Now, think about this my hell insisting friend. You say, from the unrepentant man's perspective, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross changed his fate from death to an eternity of torment. This was the effect of the cross?

And for those who claim extermination, I say the same. If Jesus never came, the unrepentant man would die and stay dead. Now that Christ came, the annihilists say the effect of the cross is for this guy to be resurrected so he can suffer and then be exterminated. Jesus came for vengence?

Come on guys. It's the doctrine of hell that is revolting. It mocks the incredible effect of the cross.

I see your arguments but I don't see any scriptural evidence for them. See my two posts, 2 pages back, Here! and Here!, twenty eight passages, in the order they occur in the NT, Jesus speaking about the fate of the unrighteous. If you think a place where the unrighteous are punished eternally is revolting then don't read the words of Jesus. And please don't insult our intelligence by trying to claim everything is figurative.

 

[Stryder06]

The insistance on hell makes the effect of the crucifixion a very cruel event for billions. Think about it.

Before Jesus came, the wages of sin was death. The unrepentant man died (along with the rest of humanity).

Now, think about this my hell insisting friend. You say, from the unrepentant man's perspective, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross changed his fate from death to an eternity of torment. This was the effect of the cross?

And for those who claim extermination, I say the same. If Jesus never came, the unrepentant man would die and stay dead. Now that Christ came, the annihilists say the effect of the cross is for this guy to be resurrected so he can suffer and then be exterminated. Jesus came for vengence?

Come on guys. It's the doctrine of hell that is revolting. It mocks the incredible effect of the cross.

Tell me, how can the criminal decide what is and is not a fair punishment? How can the finite question the infinite? If God says He will destroy the wicked who are we to say "Well that's not what he really means" simply because we see it as to harsh a punishment.

The cross of Christ made it possible for all men to be saved. But some men will elect to be lost saying "We will not have this man to reign over us!" It's a sad truth but truth nonetheless. Through Adam came death. That was it, sign, sealed, delivered. Christ however brought life as a gift. And just like any gift, it has to be accepted. If you don't accept the gift then you don't own the gift.

He will not be eternal. It will destroy the devil and his angels and those who gave their allegiance to him.

 

[mwood30]

I see your arguments but I don't see any scriptural evidence for them. See my two posts, 2 pages back, Here! and Here!, twenty eight passages, in the order they occur in the NT, Jesus speaking about the fate of the unrighteous. If you think a place where the unrighteous are punished eternally is revolting then don't read the words of Jesus. And please don't insult our intelligence by trying to claim everything is figurative.

I was responding to your post which was a single sentence without scriptural evidence.

I believe there is purgatory for all unrepentant souls. This is the effect of the cross.

In the first century, Gehenna was the word for purgatory, not hell. See my post above on "Their Worm Will Not Be Quenched." I have posted biblical support for my views.

 

[Stryder06]

Jesus says people get out after they pay the last penny. And you ask, "Where does the bible teach there will be a third resurrection?"

Aside from the incorrect number - it would be two, not three - the verse about getting out after you pay the last penny is a start.

So correct me if I'm wrong. You believe that the getting out after they paid the last penny is speaking about the second resurrection?

Just trying to be straight here so I can give a proper response. Oh, and do you ever plan to address those three verses I gave you, or were you lying to me when you said you'd answer them if I answered your question first?

 

[mwood30]

I see your arguments but I don't see any scriptural evidence for them. See my two posts, 2 pages back, Here! and Here!, twenty eight passages, in the order they occur in the NT, Jesus speaking about the fate of the unrighteous. If you think a place where the unrighteous are punished eternally is revolting then don't read the words of Jesus. And please don't insult our intelligence by trying to claim everything is figurative.

And by the way, I'm happy to explore passages one by one. Pick your best one and I'll gladly respond.

Posts with dozens of passages and dozens of points are very helpful in forums. Show me the strongest passage in the Bible you think contradicts Jesus' statement that people get out after they pay the last penny. And I'll gladly show you the Bible doesn't contradict Jesus' statement.

 

[Tangible]

There are clearly many biblical passages which speak of hell as death, as destruction. There are clearly many other biblical passages that speak of hell as being eternal, and speak of suffering for eternity. How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictory images?

We normally think of these death and destruction in a telic sense, of having an endpoint, because that is how we experience them on earth. Dying stops at the point of death. Destruction stops at the point in which something is destroyed.

When speaking of eternity, however, these things must be seen as atelic, of not having an endpoint or a point of completion. Eternal death is not dying and then being dead. Eternal death is an eternity of dying. Being eternally destroyed will not ever be completed, but will be an eternity of the process of being destroyed.

 

[Stryder06]

There are clearly many biblical passages which speak of hell as death, as destruction. There are clearly many other biblical passages that speak of hell as being eternal, and speak of suffering for eternity. How do we reconcile these seemingly contradictory images?

We normally think of these death and destruction in a telic sense, of having an endpoint, because that is how we experience them on earth. Dying stops at the point of death. Destruction stops at the point in which something is destroyed.

When speaking of eternity, however, these things must be seen as atelic, of not having an endpoint or a point of completion. Eternal death is not dying and then being dead. Eternal death is an eternity of dying. Being eternally destroyed will not ever be completed, but will be an eternity of the process of being destroyed.

If that were the case though, then sin would be in existence for all of eternity would it not?

 

[Der Alte]

And by the way, I'm happy to explore passages one by one. Pick your best one and I'll gladly respond.

Posts with dozens of passages and dozens of points are very helpful in forums. Show me the strongest passage in the Bible you think contradicts Jesus' statement that people get out after they pay the last penny. And I'll gladly show you the Bible doesn't contradict Jesus' statement.

Sorry amigo! I have done a systematic study of all the verses spoken by Jesus which address the fate of the unrighteous and you want to play the "my proof text beats your verse." game. Your proof text Matt 5:24-26 has nothing to do with the fate of the wicked after death, but dealing with people in this world. Anybody can prove almost any view by cherry picking certain verses and blowing off other verses as figurative, etc. Take as much time as you like, I have been here for about 10 years and will be around for a while longer.

 

[Der Alte]

I was responding to your post which was a single sentence without scriptural evidence.

I believe there is purgatory for all unrepentant souls. This is the effect of the cross.

In the first century, Gehenna was the word for purgatory, not hell. See my post above on "Their Worm Will Not Be Quenched." I have posted biblical support for my views.

You are mistaken I had not replied to you before. If you want me to review a previous post please extend me the courtesy of linking to it as I did. Here is a part of a longer article on Gehenna from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing that in fact the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed Gehenna to be the equivalent of hell.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

 

[mwood30]

Sorry amigo! I have done a systematic study of all the verses spoken by Jesus which address the fate of the unrighteous and you want to play the "my proof text beats your verse." game. Your proof text Matt 5:24-26 has nothing to do with the fate of the wicked after death, but dealing with people in this world. Anybody can prove almost any view by cherry picking certain verses and blowing off other verses as figurative, etc. Take as much time as you like, I have been here for about 10 years and will be around for a while longer.

I'm not asking you to play a game, I'm simply asking you to have a dialogue. Now, regarding your claim that " Matt 5:24-26 has nothing to do with the fate of the wicked after death." Let's begin our dialogue by seeing if you are right or not.

Let me share the context with you:

"but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore - Matthew 5:22,23a
​

Please notice the word 'therefore'. The word 'therefore' shows the upcoming parable is illuminating the topic at hand - hell (Gehenna in Koine).

So, with the context in mind, let me paraphrase the passage:

1. Be right with your neighbor you will go to hell.

2. Therefore, if you have something against your brother, make it right with him you'll be thrown into prison (the metaphor).

3. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you pay the last penny.

The context of "getting out after you pay the last penny" is truly within a metaphor about Gehenna (hell). Really.

And if you mischaracterized the verse I referenced, isn't it within the realm of possibility your mischaracterizing the ones you believe contradict this metaphor about hell?

 

[mwood30]

So correct me if I'm wrong. You believe that the getting out after they paid the last penny is speaking about the second resurrection?

Just trying to be straight here so I can give a proper response. Oh, and do you ever plan to address those three verses I gave you, or were you lying to me when you said you'd answer them if I answered your question first?

Sorry if I overlooked three verses of yours. And sorry you had to assume I might be lying about something. I do chat in the forums in between workloads, so if I miss something, a kind reminder would be more helpful.

In any case, please remind me of the three verses, and if you do so, I will look for your post next and respond to it.

 

[mwood30]

You are mistaken I had not replied to you before. If you want me to review a previous post please extend me the courtesy of linking to it as I did. Here is a part of a longer article on Gehenna from the Jewish Encyclopedia showing that in fact the Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed Gehenna to be the equivalent of hell.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
​

by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA

​

I trust you understand how to interpret any source you quote from?

The Jewish Encyclopedia documents the meanings of words as they evolved throughout the centuries. As with all languages, words change. Not too long ago "sophisticated" meant "corrupt" and now it is seen as a compliment of standing today.

The question is, what did Gehenna mean at the time Jesus used it.

The Rabbinic school of thought that drove the popular meaning of the word in the first century was the School of Hillel. In fact, Paul studied under Gamliel, the grandson of Hillel. And the word meant at that time a place of temporary punishment. Really.

You can quote how the word changed over time. But I'm personally more interested in the message Jesus delivered when speaking to his first century Koine Greek audience.

 

[Stryder06]

Sorry if I overlooked three verses of yours. And sorry you had to assume I might be lying about something. I do chat in the forums in between workloads, so if I miss something, a kind reminder would be more helpful.

In any case, please remind me of the three verses, and if you do so, I will look for your post next and respond to it.

It's post 37.

 

[mwood30]

It's post 37.

The three verses in your post #37:

Malachi 4:1
Isaiah 1:28
Revelation 20:9
​

They all have to do with the unrighteous being destroyed, consumed, and being no longer. So I responded in post #39:

I'll bite, after you answer some questions for me: Was Sodom destroyed? Was Sodom consumed? Was Sodom around later?
​

Then you replied in Post #41

Sodom was destroyed
Sodom was consumed
Sodom was not around later.
Now, how do you reconcile what you believe Isa is saying in light of the texts I presented to you.
​

Then I replied in Post #43

"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.
Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

"'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. Ezekiel 16:49-55 NIV

Yes, Sodom was destroyed. Yes, Sodom was consumed. Yes, Sodom is around no longer. And yes, Sodom will be fully restored. Praise God.
​

And then you accused me rather rudely of not responding to the three verses I responded to in your post #105

Oh, and do you ever plan to address those three verses I gave you, or were you lying to me when you said you'd answer them if I answered your question first?
​

Seriously dude, before you try to imply someone lied, check up first. Just a suggestion.

 

[Stryder06]

The three verses in your post #37:

Malachi 4:1
Isaiah 1:28
Revelation 20:9
​

They all have to do with the unrighteous being destroyed, consumed, and being no longer. So I responded in post #39:

I'll bite, after you answer some questions for me: Was Sodom destroyed? Was Sodom consumed? Was Sodom around later?
​

Then you replied in Post #41

Sodom was destroyed
Sodom was consumed
Sodom was not around later.
Now, how do you reconcile what you believe Isa is saying in light of the texts I presented to you.
​

Then I replied in Post #43

"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.
Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

"'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. Ezekiel 16:49-55 NIV

Yes, Sodom was destroyed. Yes, Sodom was consumed. Yes, Sodom is around no longer. And yes, Sodom will be fully restored. Praise God.
​

And then you accused me rather rudely of not responding to the three verses I responded to in your post #105

Oh, and do you ever plan to address those three verses I gave you, or were you lying to me when you said you'd answer them if I answered your question first?
​

Seriously dude, before you try to imply someone lied, check up first. Just a suggestion.

I will apologize for assuming you were ignoring my comment. I figured since you said "I'll bite after you answer my question" that you would directly answer the question about how those three verses fit into your idea about hell. Since a direct response was not received I thought you were simply passing by it.

Trying to use Sodom as an example doesn't fit because those verses are talking about the last day. All the wicked have not been consumed by fire and destroyed. So if you could, would you humor me with a more direct response to how those three verses fit into your idea about hell.

 

[Tangible]

If that were the case though, then sin would be in existence for all of eternity would it not?

Can you flesh that out a bit?

 

[mwood30]

I will apologize for assuming you were ignoring my comment. I figured since you said "I'll bite after you answer my question" that you would directly answer the question about how those three verses fit into your idea about hell. Since a direct response was not received I thought you were simply passing by it.

Trying to use Sodom as an example doesn't fit because those verses are talking about the last day. All the wicked have not been consumed by fire and destroyed. So if you could, would you humor me with a more direct response to how those three verses fit into your idea about hell.

Sodom is one example of destroyed, consumed, people who are no longer, who will be fully restored on the last day.

And the author of Jude said that Sodom's fate is our example of what happens to those who suffer aionios fire.

If Sodom is restored in the end, and it is the example of what happens to all the people in your verses, then this is a direct response; not an indirect one.

 

[Stryder06]

Can you flesh that out a bit?

Certainly.

Our sins have been atoned for by the blood of Christ. That atonement however, will not extend to the unrepentant sinner. Sin if you will sticks to you like a bad sore, or a tumor even. If the sinner is not destroyed than that means that sin still exists because it will still exist in the sinner.

Did that help?

 

[Stryder06]

Sodom is one example of destroyed, consumed, people who are no longer, who will be fully restored on the last day.

And the author of Jude said that Sodom's fate is our example of what happens to those who suffer aionios fire.

If Sodom is restored in the end, and it is the example of what happens to all the people in your verses, then this is a direct response; not an indirect one.

I think I'm following you now. You believe the entire fate of Sodom is an example of what will happen to people, that they will be destroyed then restored?

If that is so than that most assuredly means that you believe there will be a third resurrection. Please correct me if you do not believe that, and if so, then when will this restoration be?

 

[mwood30]

I think I'm following you now. You believe the entire fate of Sodom is an example of what will happen to people, that they will be destroyed then restored?

If that is so than that most assuredly means that you believe there will be a third resurrection. Please correct me if you do not believe that, and if so, then when will this restoration be?

I believe in three ages; still not grasping where the third resurrection comes in.

Let me try to diagram the two paths I believe in:

Repentant -> First Death -> Resurrected with immortal Body -> Receives the special reward of life in the age to come -> Continues on to the time when all souls are reunited with God.

Unrepentant -> First Death -> Resurrected with a mortal Body -> Punished -> Mortal Body undergoes the Second Death -> Resurrected to reunite with God in the third age.

That's it in a nutshell. I believe the bodies of those in the second death totally and completely cease to be. Just like our mortal bodies will cease to be.

In short: the Repentant suffer one mortal body. The unrepentant two - hence "the second death".

Now, you've earned my respect as being someone knowledgable. And I hope I've earned yours. So let's just dive in mano y mano. Okay?