Let's Talk About Hell

Stryder06 · May 4, 2010

I think alot of this could be cleared up if we talked about the qualifying words: destroyed and consumed.

That's what the bible says will happen to the wicked. So either the bible is right, or it's wrong.

mwood30 · May 4, 2010

LJSGM said:
Gehenna is basically a place where people are going to be destroyed (the second death) because that is what fire does, it destroys anything that is thrown into it and this death will be an everlasting punishment and destruction.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death (note it does not say torture).

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You've taken Matthew 10:28 out of context. There is absolutely no indication that God will destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Please consider Matthew 3:9:

And do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

The underlined word in Matthew 3:9 is the Koine Greek word dunatai in the original Christian Bible. And it's the same word he used in Matthew10:28. This word simply means "to have the ability to do something if one chooses to do it."

A better translation of Matthew 3:9 is

And do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God could, if he wanted to, raise up children to Abraham.

And a better translation of Matthew 10:28 is

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who could, if he wanted to, destroy both soul and body in hell.

Now I'm trusting you believe Jesus was using hyperbole when speaking to the Jews about raising stones into children; because that would be ridiculous. Yet, the early church understood Jesus was using the very same hyperbolic language when discussing Gehenna (hell) in Matthew 10:28.

There is no destruction. People get out after they pay the last penny.

Michael Wood
Author of The Jerome Conspiracy

Stryder06 · May 4, 2010

mwood30 said:
-snip-

There is no destruction. People get out after they pay the last penny.

Explain to me how this will happen? If the wages of sin is death, how can you "get out" after you've paid that wage in full?

mwood30 · May 4, 2010

Stryder06 said:
I think alot of this could be cleared up if we talked about the qualifying words: destroyed and consumed.

That's what the bible says will happen to the wicked. So either the bible is right, or it's wrong.

And the Bible says everyone gets out after they pay the last penny. And the Bible says the whole world will swear an oath unto God.

Are you back to semantics my friend?

Stryder, I've already shown you Jesus' metaphor about 'getting out after you pay the last penny' was a metaphor about Gehenna.

I've shown you Sodom was an example of total destruction and total consumption; yet total restoration.

Come on my friend. None of this means anything to you?

If you have to reach for Semantics when discussing Isaiah, and semantics when discussing Ezekiel, it seems your theology is based on semantics; not a plain and simple reading of the Bible. Maybe?

mwood30 · May 4, 2010

Stryder06 said:
Explain to me how this will happen? If the wages of sin is death, how can you "get out" after you've paid that wage in full?

I guess Jesus mispoke when he said people get out after they pay the last penny?

The wages of sin is death and the gift of God is the life of the age through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus triumphed over death for all mankind. Some will receive life before they die the first death; others will need to be punished then die the second the death before they receive life.

"I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." - Matthew 5:26 (Jesus)

mwood30 · May 4, 2010

Stryder06 said:
Explain to me how this will happen? If the wages of sin is death, how can you "get out" after you've paid that wage in full?

And I trust you realize the reason people die the first death is because of sin; ever heard of Adam and Eve?

Stryder, Christians will die because of sin. Their bodies are mortal, because of sin. Yet they are going to receive life. Right? What's so difficult about it?

Der Alte · May 4, 2010

Stryder06 said:
Commonly misunderstood text in Peter. The dead know nothing. Thus Christ couldn't speak to someone dead.

Common fallacy here, alluding to two different and out-of-context proof texts. Christ never went to hell! Hell is never called prison and prison is never called hell in scripture! The preaching that Christ did to the souls in prison was part of his earthly ministry. Notice it right there between, "heal the brokenhearted and recovering of sight to the blind"

Luk 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

This is the only place Jesus could preach to captives and set them free.

Der Alte · May 4, 2010

gadfire said:
I do not believe in a literal burning fire called hell.To believe this would be to believe that God is cruel and unmerciful.If one can reason they should be able to reason that 50 or so years of petty sins are not justification to burn someone alive in a fire forever and ever.the Hellfire God was invented by the church to control the masses I do believe.It is a good feature to use to get souls and to keep everyone in line.

If what you say is true, how and why did the Jews teach this before and during the time of Christ? This is a small part of a much longer article. The scripture references are highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA

Der Alte · May 4, 2010

Lisa*Lisa said:
These 2 articles sums it up perfectly. The Bible Truth About Hades and Hell Fire

Jesus' Teaching on Hell by Samuel G. Dawson

It all comes down to the hebrew and greek words, and the translation into english. The original words were Hades, Sheol, and Gehenna. They do not mean "HELL" like most people think.

I'm sure those two articles are quite interesting to you, and others who believe as you do, but some of us have studied this for ourselves, as you can see from the post above, and when studied systematically we find the Biblical truth that the unrighteous will be punished eternally in a place of God's choosing, whatever name you call it.

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.[/b

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].
In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Continued in next post)

Der Alte · May 4, 2010

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If the unrighteous, in hades, eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in. When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, many shall not be able, to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, Everyone shall be able to enter? When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in hades, the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now Gods unchanging word will still say, neither can they pass to us.

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, a certain man, a certain king, etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in. When does this verse change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Stryder06 · May 4, 2010

mwood30 said:
And the Bible says everyone gets out after they pay the last penny. And the Bible says the whole world will swear an oath unto God.

Are you back to semantics my friend?

Not at all. Have you studied Revelation? At the judgment, the wicked dead are raised. All of them. The righteous are already alive thus everyone who has ever lived will live again. Then all shall swear that God is God. You have to connect all the dots so that you can see the entire picture.

Stryder, I've already shown you Jesus' metaphor about 'getting out after you pay the last penny' was a metaphor about Gehenna.

I've shown you Sodom was an example of total destruction and total consumption; yet total restoration.

Come on my friend. None of this means anything to you?

If you have to reach for Semantics when discussing Isaiah, and semantics when discussing Ezekiel, it seems your theology is based on semantics; not a plain and simple reading of the Bible. Maybe?

No semantics at all. I know that everyone shall live again, as stated in my previous post, but not everyone will live eternally. Only the righteous are promised this.

mwood30 said:
I guess Jesus mispoke when he said people get out after they pay the last penny?

The wages of sin is death and the gift of God is the life of the age through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus triumphed over death for all mankind. Some will receive life before they die the first death; others will need to be punished then die the second the death before they receive life.

"I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." - Matthew 5:26 (Jesus)

Like I said, you have to connect the dots. Where does the bible teach there will be a third resurrection?

mwood30 said:
And I trust you realize the reason people die the first death is because of sin; ever heard of Adam and Eve?

Stryder, Christians will die because of sin. Their bodies are mortal, because of sin. Yet they are going to receive life. Right? What's so difficult about it?

Not everyone will die. Paul makes that clear in his letter to the Thessalonians. There will be a resurrection for the righteous, and a resurrection for the wicked. When the wicked surround the city they will be consumed. The bible does not speak of a third resurrection after that where they will get out. Death comes to those who reject Christ.

The Penitent Man · May 4, 2010

The denial of hell trivilizes the crucifixion, makes it meaningless.

It's contemptuous.

nephilimiyr · May 4, 2010

Lisa*Lisa said:
I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

I used to think this myself. I don't know, call me a sucker but I have read stories of people who have died and have gone to a place other than a heaven and I believe there is something to their stories. Interestingly not all of them talk about a pit of fire but being in a very very dark place.

With all the biblical accounts of hell I have conceded that there is a real place. It's not a state of mind like some people believe and it's not a fairy tale.

Lisa*Lisa · May 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
I used to think this myself. I don't know, call me a sucker but I have read stories of people who have died and have gone to a place other than a heaven and I believe there is something to their stories. Interestingly not all of them talk about a pit of fire but being in a very very dark place.

With all the biblical accounts of hell I have conceded that there is a real place. It's not a state of mind like some people believe and it's not a fairy tale.

Yes, I have read some of those NDE accounts too where people end up in a dark and evil place, but that place isn't a pit of fire. It's just outside of God's kingdom where the evil lives. That's what I believe Hell is. I've also read accounts of people being saved from that place after they died and called on the name of Jesus and He came and rescued them from that place.

Anywhere and everywhere outside of God's kingdom is hell. I think it's really that simple. Outside of His light is darkness.

nephilimiyr · May 4, 2010

Lisa*Lisa said:
Yes, I have read some of those NDE accounts too where people end up in a dark and evil place, but that place isn't a pit of fire. It's just outside of God's kingdom where the evil lives. That's what I believe Hell is. I've also read accounts of people being saved from that place after they died and called on the name of Jesus and He came and rescued them from that place.

Anywhere and everywhere outside of God's kingdom is hell. I think it's really that simple. Outside of His light is darkness.

Well there's definately truth in that; without God there is no goodness, there is no peace, there is no love. Jesus had said that there will be people who will recieve a great damnation so I believe that there are levels of hell, from bad to worse sort a speak.

I believe very strongly that if one doesn't confess Jesus as Lord they will not have eternal life with him. For those who have never recieved the opportunity to hear the gospel yet lived as good people I tend to believe are in this level of hell that is nothing but darkness. For those who have heard the gospel but had rejected it yet lived as good people it will be a little worse for them. For those who had not heard the gospel and lived as bad people will have it worse, and those who recieve the gospel, rejected Christ and lived as bad people will have it the worst, the flames type of hell. That is just what I think.

Frogster · May 4, 2010

nephilimiyr said:
I used to think this myself. I don't know, call me a sucker but I have read stories of people who have died and have gone to a place other than a heaven and I believe there is something to their stories. Interestingly not all of them talk about a pit of fire but being in a very very dark place.

With all the biblical accounts of hell I have conceded that there is a real place. It's not a state of mind like some people believe and it's not a fairy tale.

nephilimiyr · May 4, 2010

Frogster said:

mwood30 · May 4, 2010

Der Alter said:
If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

I wrote this for my website: TheUnhiddenBible.org. I believe it answers your question.

Their Fire Will Not Be Quenched

When Jesus walked the earth, the Jews threw their garbage into the valley just outside the city of Jerusalem. The name of this valley was Gehenna. The garbage in Gehenna burned day and night its fire never came to an end.

In addition to continual fire, the Gehenna garbage dump was constantly teaming with maggots which feasted on the constant supply of discarded animal parts. In the valley called Gehenna, just outside the city of Jerusalem, the fire never came to an end and the worm population never died.

Why this geography lesson? Because the word translated as hell in the modern Bible is the Greek word Gehenna the name of the garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem. According to modern Bibles, Jesus supposedly said:

Hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. Mark 9:47c-48 NASB

But what Jesus actually said was:

Gehenna, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. Mark 9:47c-48 Literal Greek

Why is the wording so important? Its important because there is only one place in the entire Jewish scriptures where Gehenna is mentioned. So we dont have to sift through a lot of information to figure out what the Jews believed about it. For it is mentioned only once.

Gehenna is described in the prophet Isaiahs prophecy regarding the New Heaven and New Earth. In this prophecy he describes the New Jerusalem, and he gives a prophecy about the valley outside it. He describes the valley of Gehenna. Regarding Gehenna, Isaiah prophesied:

And it shall be from new moon to new moon their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched. Isaiah 66:22-23 NASB

Most Christians are not aware that Jesus quoted from the prophet Isaiahs prophecy when he spoke of Gehenna, where their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched. And they are even less aware that Isaiahs prophecy says their worm will not die from new moon to new moon and their fire will not be quenched from new moon to new moon. Most Christians are unaware there was a specified time limit.

So what exactly is the amount of time expressed by the phrase new moon to new moon? The answer is quite simple. The early Jews measure time based on lunar cycles. The period of one lunar year was one new moon to its same new moon. The prophet Isaiah symbolized the time limit of Gehenna as one lunar year. In modern English, Isaiahs prophecy reads:

And it shall be for twelve months their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched.

So thats how the passage really reads? Absolutely. And this is why the early Jewish Rabbinic literature said:

The punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months. Shabbat 33b

And another early Jewish Rabbinic writing said:

The judgment of the unrighteous in Gehenna shall endure twelve months, for it is written, It will be from one moon until its moon. Eduyoth 2:10

The Rabbinic author above understood the reference to the lunar year, for the above author wrote at a time when the Jews still measured time based on lunar cycles. Unfortunately, modern translators are unfamiliar with the early Jewish lunar cycles and therefore do not convert the Jewish idiom into a modern English equivalent. Conversion of cultural idioms is an absolute essential of proper translation.

But proper translation certainly creates a dilemma. For the Christian believer must assume that Jesus would never contradict Isaiah. The Christian believer must assume that Jesus and Isaiah were in total agreement. Therefore the Christian believer must conclude that Jesus was speaking about the symbolic twelve months where their worm shall not die and their fire will not be quenched.

How long exactly? I guess well never know. But certainly a symbolic twelve months doesnt even begin to support the notion of a punishment that lasts for eternity.

mwood30 · May 4, 2010

Stryder06 said:
Like I said, you have to connect the dots. Where does the bible teach there will be a third resurrection?

Jesus says people get out after they pay the last penny. And you ask, "Where does the bible teach there will be a third resurrection?"

Aside from the incorrect number - it would be two, not three - the verse about getting out after you pay the last penny is a start.

mwood30 · May 4, 2010

The Penitent Man said:
The denial of hell trivilizes the crucifixion, makes it meaningless.

It's contemptuous.

The insistance on hell makes the effect of the crucifixion a very cruel event for billions. Think about it.

Before Jesus came, the wages of sin was death. The unrepentant man died (along with the rest of humanity).

Now, think about this my hell insisting friend. You say, from the unrepentant man's perspective, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross changed his fate from death to an eternity of torment. This was the effect of the cross?

And for those who claim extermination, I say the same. If Jesus never came, the unrepentant man would die and stay dead. Now that Christ came, the annihilists say the effect of the cross is for this guy to be resurrected so he can suffer and then be exterminated. Jesus came for vengence?

Come on guys. It's the doctrine of hell that is revolting. It mocks the incredible effect of the cross.

Let's Talk About Hell

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