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Let's Talk About Hell

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mwood30

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You know that every knee bowing will include the Devil and his minions right? That will occur before judgment. And I'm not sure what version of the bible says people burn forever. I know it says they will be burned up and be ashes under our feet.

What the Devil wants if for people to have a misunderstanding about hell which will in turn lead to a misunderstanding of the character of God.

No, that isn't what the Bible says. The every knee shall bow is in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that all the earth will turn to God and be saved.

"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. - Isaiah 45:22-23

In Gehenna, all the unrepentant will bow down and be saved and be plucked from the fire. God will have his way. God swore by Himself that he will make this happen. The devil loses.
 
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brinny

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I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

i believe that's part of it. One thing for sure, it is not with Abba, our Father, and it is not amongst His beloved, of whom He rejoices over with singing.

Good thread! :thumbsup:
 
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DRD4Him

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I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

I think your perspective of hell is the way it is. We can get an almost complete view of this situation while we are living. There are many hellish experiences we can go through.
 
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Lisa*Lisa

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Here is a good article I found online:

Do you believe in a Fiery Hell of Torment? Is there really a place where wicked and sinful people go to be punished after death by being burned alive forever and ever? Is this the act of an almighty God? Would he actually do something like that?
Once I had the privilege of being drawn into a conversation started by two fellow co-workers. One had gone out partying with friends the previous night and seemed to lead what might appear to some as a wild lifestyle. The other was admonishing her that she had better get her life right and stop all that partying or she would be burned in hell! Then she turned and looked at me and said, isn't that right? At first I was somewhat taken aback that she thought that I was some kind of authority on the subject since I had always tried to refrain from expressing my religious or political views and opinions (that has since changed as you can see).
Anyway, this particular person always carried with them a copy of the King James Version of the Bible, which is the standard Bible that most Christians seem to aspire to. At first I tried to skirt around the question but she insisted I respond by repeating herself. Hesitantly, I began, no, not my God who I know love and serve; he could never do anything like that. Oh my goodness, what had I done, I immediately thought as she turned and grabbed her Bible from the top of her desk (where she kept it most of the time). She quickly thumbed through it stopping to read a scripture which basically stated that God would destroy the wicked just as he had done during the time of the Israelites! There, she said proudly, looking as though she had just won the award of the day for being correct.
Here was my out! I could just smile and quietly walk away since I had no qualms with the scripture she'd just read or I could challenge her understanding of what she had just read. Me being me, I choose the latter. I have no problem with that scripture I said, what you read was the truth. At that point, she glared at me defiantly and said, but you just said that God could never do anything like that! Ok, I thought, too late to walk away now. Alright, I said, you read the scripture yourself, "He would destroy the wicked just as he had done during the time of the Israelites". Defending my position I continued, according to the dictionary, the word destroy means, "to get rid of, annihilate, and cease to exist". So, if God destroys the wicked, get rid of them, how can they be placed in a fiery hell of torment, or anyplace for that matter, when he has already destroyed them. They no longer exist! She just looked at me with utter disbelief! How dare I try to dismiss something she had believed in all her life! It is a fact, both Christians and many non-Christians believe in hell and that it is a place inhabited by demons and the wicked, after death, is punished with torment.
Definition and Origin of the word Hell
When asked to show me in her Bible where our living God says he will punish and torment sinful wicked humans, she began to read scriptures which included the use of the word hell. However, a clear and true meaning or understanding of what she read was lost in her translation of the word “hell”. The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations, however in the same verses other translations read “the grave,” the world of the dead”, etc. and not the word “hell”. In other instances, the original language words that are sometimes rendered as the word “hell” are simply transliterated or expressed with words of our alphabet but the words themselves are left un-translated. What are those words? The Hebrew word she’ohl’ and its Greek equivalent hai’des, which refer not to an individual burial place but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek word ge’en na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction.
So where did the teaching of Hellfire and Torment originate?
According to ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “neither world is pictured as a place full of horrors and is ruled with great fierceness and strength by gods and demons”. (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581). Also, found in the religion of ancient Egypt is early evidence relating to the aspect of hell. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960 containing a introduction by E.A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161). It has also been found that even Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th Century B.C.E., came to feature both a hot and cold hell. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68). Lastly, depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic Churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots. (La civilta etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, P. 389).
Although hellfire and torment seem to be deeply rooted in religious beliefs, no where can its literal existence be found as a fact of truth. In fact, Biblical scripture states just the opposite. It says that God torments no one. Jeremiah 32:35 supports this. This scripture states that the children of Judah decided to build a temple of fire in which to burn their children in sacrifice as an act of worship to God. But upon noticing what they were doing, "he became angry" and stated that this was something he had not requested them to do, "neither did it come into my heart". Even as an act of worship to him the thought of burning one alive was something God himself found incomprehensible, a detestable thing and not compatible with his personality.
No, I do not believe in a Fiery Hell of Torment. This is the biggest lie ever told on God and the real roots of this slandering and dishonoring doctrine originates with the chief slanderer of God. Satan the devil, whose name by the way means “slanderer” also called “the father of the lie” by Jesus at John 8:44. There is no such place as a Fiery Hell of Torment and to tell you the truth, most clergymen, pastors, preachers, reverends, etc also know this. But it’s the shouting of the Fire and the Hell and the Brimstone from the pulpit that packs most churches. Packed churches means full collection plates and full collection plates mean that pastor, preacher or reverend can continue to live in the manner in which he has become accustomed. The manners in which his parishioners have made him become accustomed. Expensive suits and shoes. A big expensive home, in some cases more than one. An expensive car, in some cases two or three. Going on vacations two or three times a year. Taking family and friends out to expensive dining and picking up the tab to further impress them. These are just some of the reasons why religious leaders have continued to jeopardize their own salvation so to speak, but scripture refers to them as "false prophets" and we should be on guard for them.
 
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Pythons

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No, that isn't what the Bible says. The every knee shall bow is in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that all the earth will turn to God and be saved.

"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. - Isaiah 45:22-23

In Gehenna, all the unrepentant will bow down and be saved and be plucked from the fire. God will have his way. God swore by Himself that he will make this happen. The devil loses.

In this case Stryder is right.

Matthew 8 said:
And, behold, they [ the demons ] cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Matthew 8 said:
So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine

Matthew 12 said:
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you

The devils and demons know ( as in right now ) who the Lord is & when the time comes trust me, they will bow right along with everyone else.
 
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mwood30

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In this case Stryder is right.

The devils and demons know ( as in right now ) who the Lord is & when the time comes trust me, they will bow right along with everyone else.

Excuse me? Isaiah's prophecy is about "all the ends of the earth turning to God and being saved" and "everyone swearing allegiance to God." You dismissed the prophecy out of hand and then gave scripture references that don't even relate to it.

Demons currently acknowledge Jesus is Lord - but they do not swear their allegience to him. This is what the Isaiah prophecy is about - all the ends of the earth swearing allegience to God. Sorry, Stryder is not right ... and neither are you correct.

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;...
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 45:22-23

Can you show me one verse where the devil or demons will swear their allegiance to God?
 
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Stryder06

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No, that isn't what the Bible says. The every knee shall bow is in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that all the earth will turn to God and be saved.

"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. - Isaiah 45:22-23

In Gehenna, all the unrepentant will bow down and be saved and be plucked from the fire. God will have his way. God swore by Himself that he will make this happen. The devil loses.

My brother, you have to be careful with what you say lest you make the bible contradict itself. Clearly the text I showed early says the day is coming which shall burn like an oven. We can't skip around that. Jesus said that many travel the broad road which leads to destruction. Finally in Revelation we see the wicked come up against the city of God and then we see fire rain down on them from heaven and consume them.

What you have in Isaiah is not a prophecy, it is a call from God to repentance, similar to what we see in Ezekiel 33. God is simply stating the fact that when it is all said and done His name will be vindicated. Tongues have blasphemed His name, and knees have remained unbowed in defiance. The time will come however when those same people will swear He is God and bow before Him. Some do this out of love for their God. Others do it because they are compelled to because He is God. This compulsion does not end in a change of heart, rather the wicked simply can't deny it any longer.
 
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Stryder06

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-snip-

Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;...
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 45:22-23

Can you show me one verse where the devil or demons will swear their allegiance to God?

Just out of curiosity, what version of the bible are you using?

KJV says: I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

No allegiance there. The word translated as swear is shaba. It means to take an oath. This is why you have to be careful when you read different versions of the bible.
 
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mwood30

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My brother, you have to be careful with what you say lest you make the bible contradict itself. Clearly the text I showed early says the day is coming which shall burn like an oven. We can't skip around that. Jesus said that many travel the broad road which leads to destruction. Finally in Revelation we see the wicked come up against the city of God and then we see fire rain down on them from heaven and consume them.

What you have in Isaiah is not a prophecy, it is a call from God to repentance, similar to what we see in Ezekiel 33. God is simply stating the fact that when it is all said and done His name will be vindicated. Tongues have blasphemed His name, and knees have remained unbowed in defiance. The time will come however when those same people will swear He is God and bow before Him. Some do this out of love for their God. Others do it because they are compelled to because He is God. This compulsion does not end in a change of heart, rather the wicked simply can't deny it any longer.

I appreciate your concern, but your "it's not prophecy" line is just one more attempt to dismiss the passage.

In the passage, God said that "He swears by His own self that everyone will swear allegience to him." If that's not a prophecy, I don't know what is. God swore by Himself because He couldn't find anything higher to swear by - and yet you are comfortable dismissing it out of hand? Really?

There are few places where God introduces something with "I swear by Myself this will happen." What stronger words could God have used to say something was absolutely, totally, going to happen?

You keep trying to dodge the passage in Isaiah. And I don't blame you because it disagrees with you. Even more so, a promise God swore by His very self disagrees with you. Please consider your own warning of caution.

And of course I believe people will burn in fire. That's what's going to get them to change their allegience!
 
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mwood30

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Just out of curiosity, what version of the bible are you using?

KJV says: I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

No allegiance there. The word translated as swear is shaba. It means to take an oath. This is why you have to be careful when you read different versions of the bible.

I'm very careful, and I was quoting the NASB. Let me check out the Hebrew, and I'll reply in a moment.
 
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mwood30

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Just out of curiosity, what version of the bible are you using?

KJV says: I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

No allegiance there. The word translated as swear is shaba. It means to take an oath. This is why you have to be careful when you read different versions of the bible.

You know, you are funny. I don't need to check the Hebrew, because your own post refutes you!

Let me see if I can help you understand your own post:

You say, shaba means "to take an oath."

Now, let's take your quote of the KJV, but use that definition:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.

Now, if God swears by himself that every tongue will take an oath unto Him ... isn't that everyone pledging their allegience to him?

You are funny. You are saying, "The King James doesn't say 'half a dozen', it says 'six.'" Six is half a dozen. And 'the entire world taking an oath unto God' is 'everyone pledging allegiance to God'. Right?
 
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Pythons

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Excuse me? Isaiah's prophecy is about "all the ends of the earth turning to God and being saved" and "everyone swearing allegiance to God." You dismissed the prophecy out of hand and then gave scripture references that don't even relate to it.

"Some" of all parts / people is what the Scripture speaks of..........
.....That's no different then "the whole world went after Christ". Did the whole world go after Christ?

John 12 said:
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

mwood said:
Demons currently acknowledge Jesus is Lord - but they do not swear their allegience to him.

Yes, however, there is no opportunity for Demons to swear fealty to Christ.......
.......They only can swear to the valid Judgement Christ issues.

Matthew 25:34 - Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Compared with;

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

I'm afraid not everyone get's on the "fun bus" Mwood.


mwood said:
This is what the Isaiah prophecy is about - all the ends of the earth swearing allegience to God. Sorry, Stryder is not right ... and neither are you correct.

We are just telling you what the Scripture says and it's evident........
.......That the "lost" along with the demons will NOT be plucked out of hell.

mwood said:
Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;...
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Isaiah 45:22-23

That sounds just like

Numbers 21:8 said:
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

Same concept - "some" of all parts. Not everyone LOOKED at the serpent yet EVERYONE who did, lived. So to as @ the end of time.

mwood said:
Can you show me one verse where the devil or demons will swear their allegiance to God?

It's not that they swear allegiance to God - they admit and are forced to accept God's Judgment. The fact that they "will be" in hell, by default, proves they will accept it. What are they going to do? Tell God they don't accept the judgment.

As for your 'one verse';

Mark 1:27: - And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him

Strong's #G5219 said:
to obey, be obedient to, submit to

to listen, to harken

to harken to a command

It's not a matter of "when they will" because they already "DO". They know what's going to happen better then we do. Salvation, according to the Scriptures, is not afforded to Demons - at least I've not found that teaching in the Bible I have.
 
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Stryder06

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You know, you are funny. I don't need to check the Hebrew, because your own post refutes you!

Let me see if I can help you understand your own post:

You say, shaba means "to take an oath."

Now, let's take your quote of the KJV, but use that definition:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath.

Now, if God swears by himself that every tongue will take an oath unto Him ... isn't that everyone pledging their allegience to him?

You are funny. You are saying, "The King James doesn't say 'half a dozen', it says 'six.'" Six is half a dozen. And 'the entire world taking an oath unto God' is 'everyone pledging allegiance to God'. Right?

Not at all. Where do you get allegiance from? That's the thing. Do you know what an oath is? I can swear that God is God and still not love Him. It's not the same word. That's why I was saying be careful about which version you use. It's like this, there are people in the military who have taken an oath to serve their country but who can't stand its leader.
 
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Stryder06

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I appreciate your concern, but your "it's not prophecy" line is just one more attempt to dismiss the passage.
Not at all. It's not a prophecy, its God making a flat out statement about what's gonna happen. But perhaps we're arguing over semantics.

In the passage, God said that "He swears by His own self that everyone will swear allegience to him." If that's not a prophecy, I don't know what is. God swore by Himself because He couldn't find anything higher to swear by - and yet you are comfortable dismissing it out of hand? Really?
I'm not dismissing anything. God said all will swear to Him. You keep interjecting "allegiance" when that isn't there. I know every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. But that is all that will happen. By then you allegiance will be set.

"He that is just let him be just still...he that is filthy, let him be filthy still..." God couldn't say that if everyone is clean.

There are few places where God introduces something with "I swear by Myself this will happen." What stronger words could God have used to say something was absolutely, totally, going to happen?
Like I said, its semantics. I know its going to happen.

You keep trying to dodge the passage in Isaiah. And I don't blame you because it disagrees with you. Even more so, a promise God swore by His very self disagrees with you. Please consider your own warning of caution.

Malachi 4:1
Isaiah 1:28
Revelation 20:9

There are more than those, especially in Psalms, but just out of curiosity, how do you reconcile those scriptures with your idea?

And of course I believe people will burn in fire. That's what's going to get them to change their allegience!
Would that be before or after they are consumed? Ever seen something consumed? Was it still around later?
 
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mwood30

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Not at all. Where do you get allegiance from? That's the thing. Do you know what an oath is? I can swear that God is God and still not love Him. It's not the same word. That's why I was saying be careful about which version you use. It's like this, there are people in the military who have taken an oath to serve their country but who can't stand its leader.

And people can swear allegience to their country, and hate it's leader too. Hence, it is a good synonym, no?

I knew you would respond with a semantic argument over 'taking an oath' vs. 'swearing allegience'. And you didn't disappoint.

But I believe the context betrays your semantics: "Turn to me and be saved all you ends of the earth." And its within that context that God promised everyone will swear an oath to him (I'll even use your own words.)

There is no scripture that says the devil or demons will swear an oath unto God. And this is where we started our conversation. You quoted a bunch of "out-of-context" verses regarding my post - claiming these quotes somehow refute (or even relate) to my post. And even if I accept the semantics of your argument, you've only come full circle. There are no verses that say the devil or demons will take an oath unto God; so your verses really have no bearing on (or relationship to) the matter.

I believe the context illuminates the oath the ends of the world will make: The ends of the world will turn to God and be saved. For surely as God lives, every knee will bow and every tongue will make an oath unto him.

Yes, you can try to divorce the oath from "turn to me and be saved." You can split the sentences apart. You can make a semantic split over 'taking an oath unto God' and 'swearing your allegiance to Him'. And your sentence splitting and semantic splitting may seem very meaningful to you. As for me, I believe passages speak louder than verses. And to me, the Isaiah passage illuminates why Jesus said everyone will get out after they pay the last penny in his famous metaphor about hell.
 
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mwood30

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Malachi 4:1
Isaiah 1:28
Revelation 20:9

There are more than those, especially in Psalms, but just out of curiosity, how do you reconcile those scriptures with your idea?


Would that be before or after they are consumed? Ever seen something consumed? Was it still around later?

I'll bite, after you answer some questions for me: Was Sodom destroyed? Was Sodom consumed? Was Sodom around later?
 
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Stryder06

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And people can swear allegience to their country, and hate it's leader too. Hence, it is a good synonym, no?

I knew you would respond with a semantic argument over 'taking an oath' vs. 'swearing allegience'. And you didn't disappoint.
It's not semantics. It's what it is. Swearing an oath does not automatically mean you will be loyal to someone. It means you'll do what you said you'd do.

But I believe the context betrays your semantics: "Turn to me and be saved all you ends of the earth." And its within that context that God promised everyone will swear an oath to him (I'll even use your own words.)
The context does no such thing. Again, God is asking, like He always does, for people to turn to Him.

There is no scripture that says the devil or demons will swear an oath unto God. And this is where we started our conversation. You quoted a bunch of "out-of-context" verses regarding my post - claiming these quotes somehow refute (or even relate) to my post. And even if I accept the semantics of your argument, you've only come full circle. There are no verses that say the devil or demons will take an oath unto God; so your verses really have no bearing on (or relationship to) the matter.
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Now, it makes sense to me that Paul is pretty much covering the entire spectrum here. In other words, if you're alive, you'll be bowing down to Christ. Notice that Paul says they will confess that Jesus is Lord. He makes no mention of anyone swearing allegiance.

I believe the context illuminates the oath the ends of the world will make: The ends of the world will turn to God and be saved. For surely as God lives, every knee will bow and every tongue will make an oath unto him.
I can understand why you'd like to believe that, but the fact of the matter is that Christ, in no uncertain terms, clearly talks about several individuals, along side the majority, that will be lost.

Yes, you can try to divorce the oath from "turn to me and be saved." You can split the sentences apart. You can make a semantic split over 'taking an oath unto God' and 'swearing your allegiance to Him'. And your sentence splitting and semantic splitting may seem very meaningful to you. As for me, I believe passages speak louder than verses. And to me, the Isaiah passage illuminates why Jesus said everyone will get out after they pay the last penny in his famous metaphor about hell.

If you could pay any portion of the debt you owed to God Jesus need not have died. The penalty for sin is death. That means you have to lose your life. You can't lose your life and keep it at the same time. Your reference to Jesus' parable is taken out of context. Secondly, you're flat out ignoring texts, even within Isaiah, that speak about the destruction of the wicked. You can't be destroyed and alive at the same time can you?
 
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