Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[Timothew]

Look on the other thread, I made a long post summing up some of the biblical proof for my position. It is very long, since there is so much proof in the bible, so I don't want to repeat the same thing here.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Look on the other thread, I made a long post summing up some of the biblical proof for my position. It is very long, since there is so much proof in the bible, so I don't want to repeat the same thing here.

Yes, I am going there now, so it might be a good idea to stick to that one, as it has fewer pages.

I having a bit of difficulty with the quote function on my mouse, so it is hampering my efforts. But never let it be said a mouse held up a good discussion, lol.

Be back in a few.

God bless.

 

[Timothew]

Yes, I am going there now, so it might be a good idea to stick to that one, as it has fewer pages.

I having a bit of difficulty with the quote function on my mouse, so it is hampering my efforts. But never let it be said a mouse held up a good discussion, lol.

Be back in a few.

God bless.

It's late here, so I'm going to bed. I'm playing guitar for two services tomorrow.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It's late here, so I'm going to bed. I'm playing guitar for two services tomorrow.

What? And here I am up until 2:30 responding to...

Just kidding. Have a great service, play well. Use to play myself...Heavy Metal. Have played a couple of time with a few saved friends and once in a church band (and had to buy a five-string because everything was in dropped b...what's up with that? lol). But I am not led to music anymore, at least not right now. I sometimes get the urge but nothing strong enough to get back into it.

God bless.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I answered your question, don't play games.

You did not even address the question. Pointing out the painfully obvious is not playing a game.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Look on the other thread, I made a long post summing up some of the biblical proof for my position. It is very long, since there is so much proof in the bible, so I don't want to repeat the same thing here.

I was thinking about Luke 24:39 which was mentioned a week or two ago. If Jesus had taught annihilationism then when confronted with the Disciples' fear that he might be a ghost he would have said something like, "Surely you know that ghosts don't exist, lol!" But that is not what he said, instead he said that ghosts do not have flesh and bone. That is clear evidence against Jesus having ever taught annihilationism.

 

[Timothew]

You did not even address the question. Pointing out the painfully obvious is not playing a game.

You didn't ask a question, so how could I answer it?
I don't think you are being very fair with your comments.
Let's all try to treat each other better, okay?

Here is the post that I responded to, you said I didn't answer the question. I just don't see a question.

I don't know how valid his point is, but you definitely aren't addressing it.

If one ceases to exist, a destroyed natural body (psychikos), and then much later a new spiritual body (pneumatikos) is created in a completely different context both internally and externally, what is the connection? [Greek from 1 Cor 15:44]

Your answer sounds to me more like rerunning an old program on a new faster computer rather than anything I would think of as true humanity.


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[Timothew]

I was thinking about Luke 24:39 which was mentioned a week or two ago. If Jesus had taught annihilationism then when confronted with the Disciples' fear that he might be a ghost he would have said something like, "Surely you know that ghosts don't exist, lol!" But that is not what he said, instead he said that ghosts do not have flesh and bone. That is clear evidence against Jesus having ever taught annihilationism.

How is that evidence?

 

[strangertoo]

Let the scripture perhaps try to explain again... notice that few are saved by grace in this life in the judgement in this earth at Jesus' return and the many are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14]

so you seem to be claiming that this is a final judgement in THIS earth in this life ... so why would God resurrect those many judged sinners in THIS earth and then judge countless many of them worthy of salvation in the next judgement [Rev 7:9-10] ...what has changed ?

the scripture tells us that they are freed of sin by death [Rom 6:7] and that God will baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28] ... and that at judgement day they are judged by works , not grace [Rev 20:13] ... thus the judgement is CHANGED by their works AFTER death freed them from sin to the righteous kingdom come of Jesus Christ ...

so God has allowed the death of almost all men in this earth to free them from sin by death , and used the few saved FIRST to build the kingdom SO THAT countless many will be saved later because the first few serve as kings and priests for the many later resurrected in the kingdom come

so why would you assume that God gives up , admits failure , after two stages of resurrection and judgement of who is ready for translation and who is not ??? ... just because sinners of mass religion say so... the scripture says God will do ALL His pleasure and no-one can prevent that , not even Satan... God has the will and the means through Jesus Christ to save everyone and none can stop Him , all He needs to do is persuade men PROGRESSIVELY to TRY Love and so see that it works... Love does the rest because once one stops sinning one becomes whole, happy, just, caring, sharing,peaceful, truthful, wise, ... and God can help with spirit baptism because one stops denying Him to follow sins...

so believe Jesus that everyone WILL accept him and be saved , there are no unbelievers in the end, do not be fooled by sinners , man CAN and WILL all CHANGE , Jesus promise on that, and the very reputation and role of God depends upon His not losing anyone ...having saved 99 sheep He goes back even for the last black sheep, God is Love of all, no compromise even possible ...

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

so understand that the second death also frees men from sin yet again, sin in the kingdom which Jesus snuffs out by death so that it does not corrupt the billions saved there BY WORKS [Rev 20:13, Rev 7:9-10] ... but why would you listen to sinners who know not God who say the great white throne judgement is the end of God's mercy ? The bible certainly doesn't say so , quite the OPPOSITE ...
mercy of God ENDURES [the bible says this over a hundred times] because mercy is integral to Love , is BEYOND all judgement until the final judgement of the final baptism of fire in the lake of fire BEYOND 'judgement day' :-

James 2:13 ... mercy rejoiceth against judgment...

God's redemption is progressive then, in stages... so why do you ignore that few are saved first at teh first judgement and countless many at the next judgement and all the rest saved by accepting Jesus in the end of time as Jesus PROMISES they will... according to ALL God's pleasure which simply cannot be denied Him since He creates time itself for that pleasure in being saviour of all men , specially those few who are first, but later all men:-

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. [i.e believe now]

...why do you not see that all men change belief, as you do ? God never tires , only takes those who already Love so men are progressively taken from Satan until he has no supporters left, God shows him he is no god , breaks him, then convinces him too to change to TRY Love ...for Jesus states all creatures will be saved and Satan too is created [Ezek 28]

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Hell is destroyed in the lake of fire after all are freed from hell [Rev 20:13] and a second death for all who sin in the kingdom to remove their sin once more [Rom 6:7] :-

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

men are DENIED death [so much for 'annihilation-ism']

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

[strangertoo]

Sorry Stranger.. I'm very sure you believe that. I was taught otherwise. You may argue with the authors when you meet them.

the scripture reproves this for you... there is no need for men to argue with anyone ... God teaches all who are His , and progressively that comes to be everyone -Joel 2:28 ... John 16:13, Jer 31:31-34

the role of saints as 'teachers' is NOT the same as that of God as the new covenant states clearly [Jer 31:31-34] ... Jesus made this clear too , the saints only teach the gentiles primarily to find the lost House of Israel, because most of the next generation of saints are of the House of Israel [and most saints die young, a high turnover rate] ... all saints do as teachers is to persuade folks to TRY Love instead of all sinning abuse of others ... Love, including God's spirit baptism to know all Truth [John 16:13] does the rest ... saints have no basis for arguing because God teaches them all Himself...

and God NEVER authorised any sinner to teach even about TRYING Love, because if they knew they would stop sinning [so how can they teach anything but sin and lies he believes in ? ... absolute proof is the division of all religion of sinners ... how can they hope to enter the kingdom at Jesus' return without spirit baptism to know all Truth , which would cause them to be ONE in Christ, not divided ? ]

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

There are people who insist that Jesus said "I tell you the truth today". But that implies he wasn't telling the truth on other days.

I would disagree on that implication , I can tell you the Truth of God in scripture today and it does not imply that I was not doing so yesterday, yet I may say for EMPHASIS, as the scripture often does emphasise important points, that I tell you the Truth today, as in now I am underlining the truth ...

plus it is very clear that Jesus was 'in hell' that day along with the thieves... so even if one argues that 'hell' is in paradise [which is supportable by much scripture, but contrary to strange myths that hell is physical and men suffer in it somehow , despite being unconscious and dead] , nevertheless there is no knowledge in death so no knowledge of death ...one 'awakes' seemingly instantly in resurrection from what Jesus terms simply sleep in death in 'hell' ... so 'who the hell' cares ? lol?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ... the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

There wasn't anyone close enough to hear them converse....it was the author saying that you pass from the living to the living, and that death had been defeated.

It is clear that there were folks close enough to hear , Jesus followers stayed with him and he was closely guarded by Roman guards, close enough to spear him... to say one passes from living to living is indeed the apparent first perception, but ignores the passage of time ... all sinners of this earth are 'asleep' in death for over a thousand years , many for many thousands of years , albeit they know nothing of it ...

Don't confuse justice and injustice for Love. Justice is an animal desire.

Love is just as physical as justice... and consciousness, and time, and change ...

so one might say Love is an animal desire by which we come as close to God as He requires before translating us to be of the ONE spirit of all endless being... one can only Love in life ... even Jesus has to manifest to show us Love ... God can convey the Truth of Love [which we might view as an act, but it is not , all we do is stop DENYING Love, it is within us , as Adam 'took it for us' in gaining knowledge of what is Love, what is evil]...
this is why we must actively CHOOSE to stop sinning before we receive spirit baptism as a 'free gift' [no conditions, simply that we cannot acknowledge the Truth and lies about the Truth at the same time]

 

[Soulgazer]

the scripture reproves this for you... there is no need for men to argue with anyone ... God teaches all who are His , and progressively that comes to be everyone -Joel 2:28 ... John 16:13, Jer 31:31-34

the role of saints as 'teachers' is NOT the same as that of God as the new covenant states clearly [Jer 31:31-34] ... Jesus made this clear too , the saints only teach the gentiles primarily to find the lost House of Israel, because most of the next generation of saints are of the House of Israel [and most saints die young, a high turnover rate] ... all saints do as teachers is to persuade folks to TRY Love instead of all sinning abuse of others ... Love, including God's spirit baptism to know all Truth [John 16:13] does the rest ... saints have no basis for arguing because God teaches them all Himself...

and God NEVER authorised any sinner to teach even about TRYING Love, because if they knew they would stop sinning [so how can they teach anything but sin and lies he believes in ? ... absolute proof is the division of all religion of sinners ... how can they hope to enter the kingdom at Jesus' return without spirit baptism to know all Truth , which would cause them to be ONE in Christ, not divided ? ]

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil



I would disagree on that implication , I can tell you the Truth of God in scripture today and it does not imply that I was not doing so yesterday, yet I may say for EMPHASIS, as the scripture often does emphasise important points, that I tell you the Truth today, as in now I am underlining the truth ...

plus it is very clear that Jesus was 'in hell' that day along with the thieves... so even if one argues that 'hell' is in paradise [which is supportable by much scripture, but contrary to strange myths that hell is physical and men suffer in it somehow , despite being unconscious and dead] , nevertheless there is no knowledge in death so no knowledge of death ...one 'awakes' seemingly instantly in resurrection from what Jesus terms simply sleep in death in 'hell' ... so 'who the hell' cares ? lol?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ... the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.



It is clear that there were folks close enough to hear , Jesus followers stayed with him and he was closely guarded by Roman guards, close enough to spear him... to say one passes from living to living is indeed the apparent first perception, but ignores the passage of time ... all sinners of this earth are 'asleep' in death for over a thousand years , many for many thousands of years , albeit they know nothing of it ...



Love is just as physical as justice... and consciousness, and time, and change ...

so one might say Love is an animal desire by which we come as close to God as He requires before translating us to be of the ONE spirit of all endless being... one can only Love in life ... even Jesus has to manifest to show us Love ... God can convey the Truth of Love [which we might view as an act, but it is not , all we do is stop DENYING Love, it is within us , as Adam 'took it for us' in gaining knowledge of what is Love, what is evil]...
this is why we must actively CHOOSE to stop sinning before we receive spirit baptism as a 'free gift' [no conditions, simply that we cannot acknowledge the Truth and lies about the Truth at the same time]

Sorry stranger............I don't believe in a far off judgment day. Though it is tradition, you will not die, because you have already been judged. God already knows the depths of your heart, and so do you. You will leave your body and go home, or you will die with your body, and know nothing, for there will be nothing there to know anything.
You are of coarse free to disagree.




All the men ran off and hid. I think it was Mary Madelene alone who was near the cross. Or with His mother. The Romans or the Jews would not have cared what He said, to them He was just another miscreant. A perimeter would have been set up, and people kept back. It is unlikely anyone would have been close enough to hear a conversation.


Nope. Justice is based in wisdom alone without love.
Mercy is based in wisdom and love, and negates Justice.
You should already have picked up on that!

An act is evil in and of itself. If a man puts an eye out of another man, the law of Justice says to knock out one of the first man's eyes.

Though it is Just, which is just another way of saying "repay evil with evil", it is not loving.

This is why Jesus said "I bring you a better way"...........He brought us Love. Unless you believe that the Father disagrees with the Son?

 

[strangertoo]

Nope. Justice is based in wisdom alone without love.
Mercy is based in wisdom and love, and negates Justice.

An act is evil in and of itself. If a man puts an eye out of another man, the law of Justice says to knock out one of the first man's eyes.

Though it is Just, which is just another way of saying "repay evil with evil", it is not loving.

This is why Jesus said "I bring you a better way"...........He brought us Love. Unless you believe that the Father disagrees with the Son?

I'm sorry that you missed the rest of what I said over this less important point , a red herring in this thread

Ezekiel 45:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord GOD.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Love is justice then, all the way to the end of time , so justice is far more than God's demo that almost all men cannot keep the old covenant even to save their souls from death ... as Jesus said [repeatedly in fact] the new covenant is only a BETTER way ...several men were translated under the old covenant , just not enough for God's required quota of saints from this earth before men destroy it with sin...

to me the most beautiful, elegantly Loving, aspect of God's declared masterpiece Plan for stages of redemption of mankind in a power process [as confirmed in Jesus' parables ] is the poetic justice God engineers for the lake of fire ... but understand that sinners cannot even be expected to understand this, let alone accept it's deep Truth about the glory of the triumph of the justice of Love , as-it-were the 'vindication' of God to His creation... God's 'pleasure' that the creation become ONE because the spirit is ONE ... as in the heavens [even the third], so on the earth [the second, the 'new' earth] ... as in the spirit is complete unity , so God wills it be so in the creation in the physical... and NONE can stop that, not even Satan [prodigal son of God] ,,,

Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

In order to take the wicked at the end of time, they must be caused to suffer their own evil in Loving poetic JUSTICE ... how does God achieve this ?... simply by redeeming the many who are more easily persuaded by simply WITNESS of God in spirit baptism to be TOLD the Truth by God Himself -Joel 2:28

but clearly God cannot do that until folks stop listening to Satan instead, stop sinning ... thus the very first step, the foundation :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

[hence Satan's many clever subtle 'religious' arguments that man fundamentally cannot stop sinning, and FEW following Jesus as saints now -Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14]

but the FEW are enough to build the kingdom and later be the kings and priests of Jesus kingdom when over ten billion are all released from sleep in hell and death -Rev 20:13-, freed of sin by death [Rim 6:7] not by grace, and judged by works [Rev 20:13] AFTER death frees them from sin , not judged by grace... countless many saved LATER then -Rev 7:9-10

so God deprives Satan of billions of followers by means of using a few to build and run Jesus' kingdom of Love ... run with 'rod of iron'... ANY sin brings a second death to remove sin again, but also removes all sin from the kingdom, it cannot grow as it does in this earth...

so God CONCENTRATES all evil into the lake of fire, the evil finally suffer their own evil coming back at them, caught in their own traps ... they get the point quickly , and all that is required is that they TRY Love for it to show them it always was a better way ... thus there is no limit to Jesus rule of Love, all accept him eventually because of teh final baptism of fire in the lake of fire, three baptisms , just as John the baptist pointed out, confirmed by Jesus and the saints... no-one escapes TRIAL of Love to prove one is not kidding oneself that one no longer desires to abuse others with sin for any reason/cause... God looks on the heart of desire, not what one says... Love requires cessation of all abuse, nothing less than perfection will do -Ezek 18:24

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So God will PROVE to creation that He is indeed the God of love of all men , no exception possible, no disagreement is not answered with proof that it is mistaken...

that then is JUSTICE God-style... a long way from God's demo through ancient Israel that few men can keep a written creed... God deals with the 'reality' of men's belief system... all He actually needs to do is get folks to TRY Love... Love does the rest itself... ceasing sin allows God to show us the Truth of love within us that was there all along, just denied because of life's pains caused mostly by our sins against one another... we are our own worst enemies... God has teh will and means to turn that around and guarantees through Jesus Christ that he will succeed, else He would not be God at all ... no-one can be allowed to believe falsehoods indefinitely [not least because time ends , when all men choose love freely, by persuasion that they were mistaken about desirability of sin]

 

[Soulgazer]

John missed an important point. Justice is not love, for love negates justice....unless he was using the word "just" as "faithful". Justice negated by love is called "Mercy". Justice and Mercy are polar opposites.

The men of Israel invented a "god", but the True God fulfilled the false prophesy anyway, because He is Love.


"
Again he said in another place (Is 30:19-20), "Jerusalem wept much, saying, 'Have pity on me.' He will have pity on the sound of your weeping. And when he saw, he heeded you. And the lord will give you bread of affliction and water of oppression. From now on, those who deceive will not approach you again. Your eyes will see those who are deceiving you."
Therefore it is fitting to pray to God night and day, spreading out our hands towards him as do people sailing in the middle of the sea: they pray to God with all their heart without hypocrisy. For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves. Indeed, it is in order that he might know who is worthy of salvation that God examines the inward parts and searches the bottom of the heart. For no one is worthy of salvation who still loves the place of deception.
Therefore it is written in the poet (Homer, Odyssey 1.48-1.59), "Odysseus sat on the island weeping and grieving and turning his face from the words of Calypso and from her tricks, longing to see his village and smoke coming forth from it. And had he not received help from heaven, he would not have been able to return to his village."
Again Helen <...> saying (Odyssey 4.260-261), "My heart turned itself from me. It is to my house that I want to return."
For she sighed, saying (Odyssey 4.261-4.264), "It is Aphrodite who deceived me and brought me out of my village. My only daughter I left behind me, and my good, understanding, handsome husband."
For when the soul leaves her perfect husband because of the treachery of Aphrodite, who exists here in the act of begetting, then she will suffer harm. But if she sighs and repents, she will be restored to her house.
Certainly Israel would not have been visited in the first place, to be brought out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, if it had not sighed to God and wept for the oppression of its labors.
Again it is written in the Psalms (6:6-9), "I was greatly troubled in my groaning. I will bathe my bed and my cover each night with my tears. I have become old in the midst of all my enemies. Depart from me, all you who work at lawlessness, for behold the lord has heard the cry of my weeping and the lord has heard my prayer."
If we repent, truly God will heed us, he who is long suffering and abundantly merciful, to whom is the glory for ever and ever. Amen!"~Exegesis on the soul


Everybody made up a god---but the True God didn't care....He is Love, and can be found if one but looks.

 

[strangertoo]

Sorry stranger............I don't believe in a far off judgment day. Though it is tradition, you will not die, because you have already been judged. God already knows the depths of your heart, and so do you. You will leave your body and go home, or you will die with your body, and know nothing, for there will be nothing there to know anything.
You are of coarse free to disagree.

then you would believe that few are saved now? [as Matt 7:13-14]
but deny that countless many are later saved ? [as Rev 7:9-10]

that God fails to do all His pleasure :-

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

it seems that you perhaps deny all scripture then, but cling to some later words of another tradition of men ?

but how then do you know anything of Jesus , or even know what the Christ is ?

and where does spirit baptism fit in, giving up sin in water baptism, trial to perfect Love in life, baptism of fire?

 

[Soulgazer]

then you would believe that few are saved now? [as Matt 7:13-14]
but deny that countless many are later saved ? [as Rev 7:9-10]

that God fails to do all His pleasure :-

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

it seems that you perhaps deny all scripture then, but cling to some later words of another tradition of men ?

but how then do you know anything of Jesus , or even know what the Christ is ?

and where does spirit baptism fit in, giving up sin in water baptism, trial to perfect Love in life, baptism of fire?

I don't believe that "Revelation" was inspired by the True Christ.

Christ stands in my heart, and weeps that anyone would accuse him of dispensing "Justice", for "I came that they have Life and have it abundantly"

He made in clear that He is not our judge---

[SIZE=-1]12:47[/SIZE]And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [SIZE=-1]12:48[/SIZE]He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

And the word that He spoke?

. [SIZE=-1]3:19[/SIZE]And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. [SIZE=-1]3:20[/SIZE]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. [SIZE=-1]3:21[/SIZE]But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

[SIZE=-1]5:45[/SIZE]Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope. (Obvious that the NA tribes would not have their hopes pinned on Moses, but whatever other figure....false idols all)

[SIZE=-1]8:15[/SIZE]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man

I think that this makes it amply clear.

 

[strangertoo]

Everybody made up a god---but the True God didn't care....He is Love, and can be found if one but looks.

surely divided religion is not all insincere ... billions are looking I would think , but we have absolute logical proof in division of belief that very few find God in this life ... almost all men have died sinners [so without spirit baptism to know all truth -John 16:13] ,so God has NOT baptised all flesh yet -Joel 2:28

thus it is not just a matter of looking, but of having 'ears to hear', 'eyes to see' ... which is explained by the fact that one cannot have two masters... one cannot follow God in Love and Satan in sinning for simple reason that sin is unloving abuse...

one cannot hear God until one stops denying Love ... by ceasing sinning:-

it is not that God makes conditions on the gift of the Truth of Love,it is simply that a sinner has to be in denial of Love to be able to sin...

sin is an ACTIVE CHOICE against Love... the heart of desire desires sin OR it desires Love ... whichever is chosen means active DENIAL of the other

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself...

thus the first step is to stop sinning by CHOICE so one can hear God , else one will never hear God until death frees one from sin [Rom 6:7] ... so God cannot baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28] to know all Truth [John 16:13] until after death and resurrection of all sinners from hell - as Rev 20:13

so if your tradition of men were right then only tens of thousands of men would be saved ... God would somehow FAIL in Love of almost all men and throw away billions , contrary to almost all scripture , even Solomon , but where would their spirit go ??? :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Soulgazer]

surely divided religion is not all insincere ... billions are looking I would think , but we have absolute logical proof in division of belief that very few find God in this life ... almost all men have died sinners [so without spirit baptism to know all truth -John 16:13] ,so God has NOT baptised all flesh yet -Joel 2:28

thus it is not just a matter of looking, but of having 'ears to hear', 'eyes to see' ... which is explained by the fact that one cannot have two masters... one cannot follow God in Love and Satan in sinning for simple reason that sin is unloving abuse...

one cannot hear God until one stops denying Love ... by ceasing sinning:-

it is not that God makes conditions on the gift of the Truth of Love,it is simply that a sinner has to be in denial of Love to be able to sin...

sin is an ACTIVE CHOICE against Love... the heart of desire desires sin OR it desires Love ... whichever is chosen means active DENIAL of the other

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself...

thus the first step is to stop sinning by CHOICE so one can hear God , else one will never hear God until death frees one from sin [Rom 6:7] ... so God cannot baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28] to know all Truth [John 16:13] until after death and resurrection of all sinners from hell - as Rev 20:13

so if your tradition of men were right then only tens of thousands of men would be saved ... God would somehow FAIL in Love of almost all men and throw away billions , contrary to almost all scripture , even Solomon , but where would their spirit go ??? :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Narrow is the gate and wide is the path that leads to destruction.

Those that Love can be found everywhere though they are few. Most follow the base animal within, instead of the "perfect man" which is also found within.

However, God is Merciful on those that look with their whole heart, for He is Love; and though they may err here and there, if they are sincere in their search, the path will have been lit for them. And if they are sincere in walking it, one "atta-boy" will wipe out ten "oh crap".

Those that don't step from Life to Life, will be dealt with by a Merciful God. Not a god of Justice---- which is the realm of the fellow with the horns.

 

[strangertoo]

I think maybe you are talking about different things than justice :-

Job 8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?

Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

Ezekiel 45:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord GOD.

and I see no evidence that Satan manifests other than as a man [with no horns] mistaken for being the Christ/Messiah of Israel by the 'whole world' -Rev 13:3-4, 2Thess 2, Ezek 28

 

[Soulgazer]

That is the difference between a made up god, and a real God.


"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Justice is the realm of the devil----devil is a speech idiom for one who opposes God(Love), and not at all indicative of an entity other than a man.

The rulers of evil are not Loving----for how would a loving man draw his sword and intend to use it? Yet, it is the rulers of evil whom God has put in charge of Justice---for they will indeed show their willingness to draw the sword. For the way of the world is NOT love, and neither is the god of this world.

... Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. ... Ye are
of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. ...

This does not mean that their mothers were literally impregnated by the later understanding of "devil".....it simply means they had no understanding of God, but that they were of the world. Laws bring Justice, not Love. They studied their Law and could not see Christ. Because they looked at the Justice, and not at it's opposite, Mercy. Christ was killed under the letter of the law, so they are judged under the letter of the law by the law itself, for that is where they placed their faith. If they do not pass the test that they themselves wrote and believed in, they did not pass from life to Life, but died in their "sins"="flesh".

 

[strangertoo]

I don't believe that "Revelation" was inspired by the True Christ.

As we have discussed in another thread, one has to throw out all the scripture to reject Revelation, for it simply repeats themes and phrases in the rest of scripture, pulling them together , explaining, clarifying, and extending them in a concise prescription of the time from now until the end of the new earth and heavens ...

and I find it hard to see how one can think to know Jesus without the scripture unless one has spirit baptism [as about one in three million saints of Israel (only perhaps one in seven of them Jews) alive today , and indeed distinguishable many ways , not least perfect in Love as Jesus ]

Christ stands in my heart, and weeps that anyone would accuse him of dispensing "Justice", for "I came that they have Life and have it abundantly"

one cannot have life abundantly if one is unjust... I am not sure I see your problem here

He made in clear that He is not our judge---

[SIZE=-1]12:47[/SIZE]And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [SIZE=-1]12:48[/SIZE]He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

the word of God comes by the holy spirit of Truth of God [John 16:13] as witness to the saints of what Jesus said and all Truth of Love of God [including His Plan] ... it makes no difference to the judgement if it comes from Jesus or God the Father as they are ONE... but indeed Jesus did not come to judge the world , he came to organise the finding of the House of Israel ... that does not in any way imply that he is incapable of exactly the same judgement as God..

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And the word that He spoke?

. [SIZE=-1]3:19[/SIZE]And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. [SIZE=-1]3:20[/SIZE]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. [SIZE=-1]3:21[/SIZE]But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

not disputed as such ,but what relevance ??

[SIZE=-1]5:45[/SIZE]Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope. (Obvious that the NA tribes would not have their hopes pinned on Moses, but whatever other figure....false idols all)

Those who claim to follow Moses [as many Jews bizarrely still do even though they have Jer 31:31-34, the new covenant with Israel] can be judged by Moses ... it is their choice... and makes the judgement rather easier

[SIZE=-1]8:15[/SIZE]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man

indeed a valid criticism of much religion and many Jews... but just because Jesus did not come to judge certainly does not mean that God will not judge His elect , take none still sinning

I think that this makes it amply clear

I think it didn't even address the topic