Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[he-man]

Immortality of the soul, taught by the ancient greeks, but not fully accurate.....Early Christians were the first to believe in ONE soul that was eternal.

Yep, just like the false teachings of demons, devils, witches...
Mt 13:28 He said to them, a man1, an enemy has done this thing. And the servants said to him, Do you wish then that we go and gather2 them up?
1* Greek ανθρωπος man

 

[createdtoworship]

Yep, just like the false teachings of demons, devils, witches...
Mt 13:28 He said to them, a man1, an enemy has done this thing. And the servants said to him, Do you wish then that we go and gather2 them up?
1* Greek ανθρωπος man

you cant say everything contrary to your theology is demonic.

 

[he-man]

you cant say everything contrary to your theology is demonic.

I said there are no demons that they even exist are false teachings.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to misleading spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

 

[createdtoworship]

I said there are no demons that they even exist are false teachings.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to misleading spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

so your saying that THAT VERSE speaks of "Doctrines of a Devil" meaning that if we believe in the Devil we are departing from the faith and no longer Christian?

Is that what you are saying?

really?

 

[he-man]

so your saying that THAT VERSE speaks of "Doctrines of a Devil" meaning that if we believe in the Devil we are departing from the faith and no longer Christian?Is that what you are saying?really?

No, that is not what I say, it what the Bible says! that you are departing from the faith...I will leave it up to God to determine if those who believe in "Doctrines of a Devil" are no longer Christian, thank you.

 

[Timothew]

Immortality of the soul, taught by the ancient greeks, but not fully accurate.....Early Christians were the first to believe in ONE soul that was eternal.

This is not true, Plato lived BC, but believed the soul was immortal. This is where the idea originated. It is not a Christian Belief. According to the NT, a person must be resurrected by Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life.

You have asked a lot of questions about our beliefs. Please read this short document, because it expains the biblical position very nicely.
http://lhim.org/topics/pdfs/Matt Elton -- Hell - A Place of Silence and Extinction Revision 4.3.pdf

 

[createdtoworship]

This is not true, Plato lived BC, but believed the soul was immortal. This is where the idea originated. It is not a Christian Belief. According to the NT, a person must be resurrected by Jesus Christ in order to have eternal life.

You have asked a lot of questions about our beliefs. Please read this short document, because it expains the biblical position very nicely.
http://lhim.org/topics/pdfs/Matt Elton -- Hell - A Place of Silence and Extinction Revision 4.3.pdf

plato believed the soul was split up into two parts, others believe it was split into many parts. Christians were the first to believe in one soul. With no divisions.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, that is not what I say, it what the Bible says! that you are departing from the faith...I will leave it up to God to determine if those who believe in "Doctrines of a Devil" are no longer Christian, thank you.

So you don't believe in the bible you are quoting, not sure what you are getting at?

 

[he-man]

What happened? I responded to someone's post in this thread and now both my response and the post I reponded to are missing. It was a good post, and a good response, if I say so myself.

You must mean this one: http://lhim.org/topics/pdfs/Matt%20E...sion%204.3.pdf
Hell is the place where all the dead - righteous and unrighteous - await the resurrectionat the day of judgement. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
--Revelation 20:13
As we have seen, the first death is a “sleep” during which a person unconsciously awaits the resurrection, but the second death will be the “destruction” of “both body and soul” (Matthew 10:28).
For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens, That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. --Job 21:28-32 http://lhim.org/topics/pdfs/Matt E...sion 4.3.pdf

You are correct in saying that is was from Pl.Phdr.246a, Arist.EN1111b22, Epicur. Ep.3p.60U., etc.; “ὁ δὲ λιμός ἐστιν ἀθανασίας φάρμακον” Antiph.86.6;.cf. Alexis 158 in contrast to σωμα

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
G110 αθανασία immortality, deathlessness, indestructibility Pl.Phdr.246a, Arist.EN1111b22, Epicur. Ep.3p.60U., etc.; “ὁ δὲ λιμός ἐστιν ἀθανασίας φάρμακον” Antiph.86.6.
cf. Alexis 158 in contrast to σωμα

The error that I see from your idea of all wicked being raised is in the words, and shall remain in the tomb'!

You left out what the payment is, 'that they are to receive, which is to remain in the tomb/grave forever' because they have no good works to be judged by and have already been judged.

verse 31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
32 'Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb'
What follows is they will not be allowed to even see the face of God unless they had the good works and then rejected them by teaching other doctrines.
2Th 1:8-9

Not all of the dead are asleep because Christ never was aquainted with them, only those in Christ are asleep!
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Luk 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many will seek to enter in, I say unto you, and shall not be able.
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and has locked shut the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 ..and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[Timothew]

You must mean this one: http://lhim.org/topics/pdfs/Matt%20E...sion%204.3.pdf
Hell is the place where all the dead - righteous and unrighteous - await the resurrectionat the day of judgement. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
--Revelation 20:13
As we have seen, the first death is a “sleep” during which a person unconsciously awaits the resurrection, but the second death will be the “destruction” of “both body and soul” (Matthew 10:28).
For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked? Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens, That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb. --Job 21:28-32 http://lhim.org/topics/pdfs/Matt E...sion 4.3.pdf

You are correct in saying that is was from Pl.Phdr.246a, Arist.EN1111b22, Epicur. Ep.3p.60U., etc.; “ὁ δὲ λιμός ἐστιν ἀθανασίας φάρμακον” Antiph.86.6;.cf. Alexis 158 in contrast to σωμα

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
G110 αθανασία immortality, deathlessness, indestructibility Pl.Phdr.246a, Arist.EN1111b22, Epicur. Ep.3p.60U., etc.; “ὁ δὲ λιμός ἐστιν ἀθανασίας φάρμακον” Antiph.86.6.
cf. Alexis 158 in contrast to σωμα

The error that I see from your idea of all wicked being raised is in the words, and shall remain in the tomb'!

You left out what the payment is, 'that they are to receive, which is to remain in the tomb/grave forever' because they have no good works to be judged by and have already been judged.

verse 31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
32 'Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb'
What follows is they will not be allowed to even see the face of God unless they had the good works and then rejected them by teaching other doctrines.
2Th 1:8-9

Not all of the dead are asleep because Christ never was aquainted with them, only those in Christ are asleep!
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Luk 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many will seek to enter in, I say unto you, and shall not be able.
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and has locked shut the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 ..and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Thanks He-man, This is great. This really explains somethings I was having trouble with, I know that only those who are in Christ have eternal life, this explains the fate of those outside Christ very well. The Job quote is particularly good.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I said there are no demons that they even exist are false teachings.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to misleading spirits, and doctrines of a devil;

What translation are you using? That translation gives a false impression that Satan is being referred to as a false doctrine. Here is what this verse actually says:

And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,
​

This verse says nothing about the Devil, but does confirm that demons and evil spirits exist. Nice job of disproving yourself!

 

[he-man]

What translation are you using? That translation gives a false impression that Satan is being referred to as a false doctrine. Here is what this verse actually says:And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, This verse says nothing about the Devil, but does confirm that demons and evil spirits exist. Nice job of disproving yourself!

shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The Satan doctrine is one of the most deceptive and corrupt doctrines to ever enter Christendom, and which has been embraced and promoted by false teachers for thousands of years.

For Newton, therefore, demons were figures for disordered psychotic states. The cases of demon-possession in the Synoptic Gospels do not describe the activity of literal devils, but instead reflect the (mistaken) beliefs of first-century Jews.’

Originally Baal, the name of a Middle Eastern sky-god worshipped by the original inhabitants of Israel, much denounced but occasionally worshipped by Jews. In the Bible his worship is fiercely denounced, and his name eventually became synonymous with “Devil.” He is also often referred to as “Baalzebul” (“Lord of Lords&#8221, although these were evidently originally separate gods.
Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

David Joris (c. 1501–1556, Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[LutheranMafia]

shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons,

How can demons have teachings if they don't exist? How can seducing spirits refer to some mundane entity?

Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

How can something so clearly presented in the Bible be a fable? You are effectively calling the Bible itself a fable here. Daimonion appears in the NT 60 times, daimōn appears 5 times, daimonizomai appears 13 times. That is 78 times total.

For Newton, therefore, demons were figures for disordered psychotic states. The cases of demon-possession in the Synoptic Gospels do not describe the activity of literal devils, but instead reflect the (mistaken) beliefs of first-century Jews.’

Newton didn't believe in the Trinity either. Interesting the way you rely so much on a non-Christian in this matter. So Jesus and the disciples were all just dumb Jews who didn't know any better and THOUGHT there were devils. THAT is your interpretation?

 

[he-man]

How can demons have teachings if they don't exist? How can seducing spirits refer to some mundane entity?

see the thread http://www.christianforums.com/t7604404/ Some (τινε&#962 the heretical teachers...
some ...giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, Neither give heed to fables 1Ti 1:3,4

How can something so clearly presented in the Bible be a fable? So Jesus and the disciples were all just dumb Jews who didn't know any better and THOUGHT there were devils. THAT is your interpretation?

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Job says:
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

 

[Timothew]

What happened to the "Let's talk about Hell" threads?

Let's keep them going.

 

[BornOfWaterAndSpirit]

Nontrinitarianism, annihilationism, etc. are just forms of neo-Sadducceeism.

<staff edit>

 

[strangertoo]

Nontrinitarianism, annihilationism, etc. are just forms of neo-Sadducceeism.

<staff edit>

I would recommend doing what God says on how to find His Truth form Him, not relying on the web being true... this world is almost full to the brim with sinners who cannot know the true God or Jesus ...

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

--- take the first step, the foundation of God, stop sinning so you can hear God , so He can baptise you to know all His Truth from Him [John 16:13] as promised in the new covenant [Heb 8:10-11] ... then you may decide to recommend God's way of knowing God and Jesus , rather than the way of knowing Satan's version ... as all who continue to sin [almost all men] do :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

the devil sure will give you any number of reasons to keep on sinning and does convince the whole world on that [Rev 13:3-4] but it does not change the Truth...which comes direct from God in spirit baptism once one stops having faith in sin and sinners... has faith in Love, God, Jesus instead...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

but as for 'Trinity' , isn't it the most irrelevant dogma you ever heard ? ... I'm not saying it isn't a lie... after all God is just ONE persn in Jesus, God the Father is no person, but all spirit ... and God's spirit is God , not separate from God and certainly not a person... so it's nonsense , but the question is why would men choose to divide men over such nonsense [even here on this site] ... why count God anyway ? to what end...? I mean even if one did count properly and found an answer other than ONE then what would it show ???? that God is divided ? I do not think so ...

so how many spirits of God are there ? ... the bible mentions MANY , not One... how many sons of God ? ... again there are many , an ever-increasing number, not just one , all begotten of God ...

so clearly the answer isn't three anyway... and all the things counted aren't persons , and God and His spirit are the same, just ONE ...

but who cares ???? why make such a fuss about insanity of counting God and not getting the answer, ONE ... one with MANY aspects all ONE , MANY sons of God, many spirits of God all one... there just is no three-ness about God, no trinity... just because three aspects are mentioned in one sentence doesn't mean those are the only ones... the bible shows they are not.... but why should it matter to anyone... what difference would it make if 'trinity' were not a modern nonsense invented by sinners ?

similar in absurdity is the again-modern idea that one can annihilate what is of God

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

even the elements of the body are not annihilated until the universe returns from whence it came 'ex nihilo' as-it-were ... but how could the endless creator of universes be annihilated, the spirit, which is ONE and is given from God to man... so cannot be destroyed as it is not created but given of God ....

Satan makes up thousands of things for men to believe so that they argue amongst themselves WHICH to believe.... it is clever, because men choose, but they are all lies...

God on the other hand says stop listening to satan and sinning, choose Love and God will tell you all Truth Himself... no chance of any corruption...spirit baptism is by God, of God ... absolute Truth

but most now prefer sin , division, lies , even in religion.... as predicted - Rev 13:3-4, 2Thess 2

 

[Timothew]

Nontrinitarianism, annihilationism, etc. are just forms of neo-Sadducceeism.

<staff edit>

Name calling doesn't work. First of all, This thread is "Let's talk about hell". Who said anything (in 6000 replies!) about the trinity or "nontrinitarianism"?

If annihilationism (the belief that the wages of sin is death, as the bible states) is just a form of neo-Sadducceeism, is Eternal Tormentalism just a form of Neo-Phariseeism? Well, here is what God said to do about Phariseeism. "ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch." The Saducees say there is no resurrection. Annihilationism is the belief that all will be resurrected on the final day, the day of judgement, and some will go of to eternal life and others will go off to the eternal punishment of death, being dead forever. So we are not "Neo-Saducees". We are the complete opposite of them. You could call us "Neo-Apostolics" since we believe the same things the apostles taught.

As for the link, I've read every link on the web that supposedly refutes annihilationism, and their arguments are weak and illogical. Show me which link you are endorsing and I will show you the fallacies in their reasoning. Was the link from CARM?

 

[createdtoworship]

Name calling doesn't work. First of all, This thread is "Let's talk about hell". Who said anything (in 6000 replies!) about the trinity or "nontrinitarianism"?

If annihilationism (the belief that the wages of sin is death, as the bible states) is just a form of neo-Sadducceeism, is Eternal Tormentalism just a form of Neo-Phariseeism? Well, here is what God said to do about Phariseeism. "ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch." The Saducees say there is no resurrection. Annihilationism is the belief that all will be resurrected on the final day, the day of judgement, and some will go of to eternal life and others will go off to the eternal punishment of death, being dead forever. So we are not "Neo-Saducees". We are the complete opposite of them. You could call us "Neo-Apostolics" since we believe the same things the apostles taught.

As for the link, I've read every link on the web that supposedly refutes annihilationism, and their arguments are weak and illogical. Show me which link you are endorsing and I will show you the fallacies in their reasoning. Was the link from CARM?

name calling doesn't work, but ET advocates are pharisees? Nice.

 

[Timothew]

name calling doesn't work, but ET advocates are pharisees? Nice.

I was using his faulty reasoning. Thank you for pointing out how illogical it is.

I said "IF annihilationism is Neo-saduceeism, THEN IS Eternal Tormentalism is Neo-Pharisiticalism?"