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Let's Talk About Hell (6)

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he-man

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you haven't quoted one verse or dictionary where destruction means the "end of things". My car was destroyed at the junk yard, but it still exists. Just reorganized a little.
Don't have a dictionary/Lexicon?

2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

ESV 1Co 10:10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

destruction noun the action or process of destroying something. ▶a cause of someone's ruin.
trans50.fcgi
ME: from L. destructio(n-), from destruere (see
destroy).
trans50.fcgi

ME: from OFr. destruire, based on L. destruct-, destruere, from de- (expressing reversal) + struere 'build'. © Oxford University Press, 2004

2 Peter 2:6 (BBE)
6 And sent destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah, burning them up with fire as an example to those whose way of life might in the future be unpleasing to him;

Luk 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyedthemall.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: -
2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμιollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

English Words used in KJV:
destruction 4
[Total Count: 4]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,
1Th 5:3 ForG1063 whenG3752 they shall say,G3004 PeaceG1515 andG2532 safety;G803 thenG5119 suddenG160 destruction G3639 cometh uponG2186 them,G846
1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684


 
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createdtoworship

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Don't have a dictionary/Lexicon?

2Pe 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

ESV 1Co 10:10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer.
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

destruction noun the action or process of destroying something. ▶a cause of someone's ruin.
trans50.fcgi
ME: from L. destructio(n-), from destruere (see
destroy).
trans50.fcgi

ME: from OFr. destruire, based on L. destruct-, destruere, from de- (expressing reversal) + struere 'build'. © Oxford University Press, 2004

2 Peter 2:6 (BBE)
6 And sent destruction on Sodom and Gomorrah, burning them up with fire as an example to those whose way of life might in the future be unpleasing to him;

Luk 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyedthemall.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

46And these shall go away into everlasting penalty: but the righteous into life eternal.
G2851 κόλασις kolasis kol'-as-is From G2849; penal infliction: -
2Th 1:9 Who pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; DARBY WEY GW

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμιollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

English Words used in KJV:
destruction 4
[Total Count: 4]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

1Co 5:5 To deliverG3860 such an oneG5108 unto SatanG4567 forG1519 the destruction G3639 of theG3588 flesh,
1Th 5:3 ForG1063 whenG3752 they shall say,G3004 PeaceG1515 andG2532 safety;G803 thenG5119 suddenG160 destruction G3639 cometh uponG2186 them,G846
1Ti 6:9 ButG1161 they that willG1014 be richG4147 fallG1706 intoG1519 temptationG3986 andG2532 a snare,G3803 andG2532into manyG4183 foolishG453 andG2532 hurtfulG983 lusts,G1939 whichG3748 drownG1036 menG444 inG1519 destruction G3639 andG2532 perdition.G684



sodom and gomorrah was destroyed but it still exists.

It exists as ashes.

See how you have to look at it technically?
 
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he-man

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sodom and gomorrah was destroyed but it still exists. It exists as ashes. See how you have to look at it technically?
Technically, tell me how many people survived the destruction?

Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25
And he destroyed those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
 
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createdtoworship

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Technically, tell me how many people survived the destruction?

Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25
And he destroyed those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

Gen 13:10 And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.

no souls were killed, only bodies.
 
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he-man

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no souls were killed, only bodies.
Where, in God's name, did you come up with that idea? Scripture P L E A S E? Here is some stuff I dragged from the internet.

Pro 2:19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life.

3Jn 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Pro 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. 15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Job 31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
Pro 10:28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

Pro 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
1Sa 15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
 
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createdtoworship

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Where, in God's name, did you come up with that idea? Scripture P L E A S E? Here is some stuff I dragged from the internet.

Pro 2:19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life.

3Jn 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Pro 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. 15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Job 31:3 Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity?
Pro 10:28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

Pro 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
1Sa 15:18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

you quote scripture about death and destruction but nothing about annihilation of the soul. Because it doesn't exist in scripture. So there is your proof.
 
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he-man

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you quote scripture about death and destruction but nothing about annihilation of the soul. Because it doesn't exist in scripture. So there is your proof.
scripture P L E A S E!
1 Corinthians 10:10 (BBE)
10 And do not say evil things against the Lord, as some of them did, and destruction overtook them.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

Vine's Words: Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
 
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createdtoworship

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scripture P L E A S E!
1 Corinthians 10:10 (BBE)
10 And do not say evil things against the Lord, as some of them did, and destruction overtook them.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (WEY)
9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,

Vine's Words: Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
quoting a bad translation is not proof of your position:


weymouths translation is a modern translation that has a loose style to it, too loose for many.....

"Matthew 2:10

WEY: When they saw the star, the sight filled them with intense joy.

LITV: And seeing the star, they rejoiced exceedingly [with] a great joy.

This is one of the two "test" verses I use in my article Four Different Translation Principles. The first half of Weymouth is a legitimate translation; but the second half, well, it far from a literal rendering. The words "the sight filled them" are not in the Greek text. And the grammatical construction known as a "cognate accusative" is completely lost. This construction refers to a verb and noun with the same root appearing together. The LITV retains it with "rejoice" and "joy."

Note also, the LITV offsets the word "with" in brackets as it is not actually in the Greek text but is added for clarity. Weymouth, however, does not offset this word. This pattern will be seen throughout these verses.

John 3:13

WEY: There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven.

LITV: And no one has gone up into Heaven, except He having come down out of Heaven, the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

I usually check this verse to see what Greek text a version is using. The final phrase ("who is in heaven") is in the Textus Receptus (TR) and Majority Text (MT) but not in the Critical Text (CT). The phrase is important as it shows Jesus was still in heaven during His incarnation. Thus He was in heaven and on earth at the same time. As such, the verse becomes a proof-text for His omnipresence and hence His Deity.

By including this phase Weymouth appears to be following the TR/ MT. However, by adding the word "home" (which has no basis in the Greek text) he eliminates the omnipresence interpretation of the verse. It makes it sound like Jesus was merely "away from home" when He was on the earth rather than being in both places at the same time.

Acts 13:48

WEY: Acts 13:48 The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed.

LITV: And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

I check this verse to see if the version tries to eliminate "Calvinistic" verses. The second sentence was the passage of Scripture that began my "journey" into Calvinism. As I studied the verse I could see no way to avoid the implication that some (not all) at a time previous to Luke's writing "had been appointed" (perfect tense indicate a prior action that has continuing results to the present) "to eternal life."

It was these who had been so "appointed" (or "ordained" as the word can also be rendered) who believed, and only these. The logical implication was those who did not believe had not been so appointed. Some versions will try to evade this interpretation by mistranslating the phrase. The Living Bible, for instance, has " "as many as wanted eternal life" - which is not even close to the Greek text.

Weymouth, however, almost seems to go the other way in using "pre-destined." But "appointed" or "ordained" are more accurate renderings of the Greek word. Moreover, "Weymouth's "were" is a simple past and does not bring out the sense of the Greek perfect as well as "had been" does.

That said, the first sentence of the verse seems to be more of a paraphrase than a literal translation. So overall, his rendering of the verse is not that accurate.

1Corinthians 7:1

WEY: I now deal with the subjects mentioned in your letter. It is well for a man to abstain altogether from marriage.

LITV: But concerning what you wrote to me, [it is] good for a man not to touch a woman;

This is the second "test" verse I use in my article Four Different Translation Principles. As with most of the versions evaluated in that article, Weymouth cannot resist trying to interpret what Paul meant when he wrote "it is good for a man not to touch a woman" as the LITV correctly renders the Greek text. And Weymouth even re-writes the first half of the verse considerably.

1Timothy 3:16

WEY: And, beyond controversy, great is the mystery of our religion-- that Christ appeared in human form, and His claims justified by the Spirit, was seen by angels and proclaimed among Gentile nations, was believed on in the world, and received up again into glory.

LITV: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in [the] world, was taken up in glory.

I also check this verse to see what Greek text a version is following. The first word of the second sentence is "God" in the TR/ MT. This rendering makes this another proof-text for the Deity of Christ. The vast majority of the Greek manuscripts have this reading. The CT has "who" in it which causes this verse to cease to be a proof-text for Christ’ Deity. A handful of Alexandrian manuscripts have this reading. Also note, a couple of manuscripts have "which." However, NO manuscript has "Christ." So it is hard to tell what text Weymouth is following now.

Otherwise, Weymouth is again very "free" in his "translation." Phrases like "our religion" - "human form" and "His claims" are not in the Greek text. At best, they are paraphrases.

Conclusion:

Just based on these few verses, I would say my opinion of Weymouth's Translation is not that good. At times, Weymouth's renderings are so far from the Greek that it's hard to even know what Greek text he is following!

Bibliography:
Jay P. Green, Sr. Literal Translation of the Bible. LaFayette, IN: Sovereign Grace Publishers, 1976 - 1998.
Taylor, Kenneth. The Living Bible. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, 1971."

from

Opinion of Weymouth's Translation - Article
 
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createdtoworship

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Hell

Hell is the future place of eternal punishment of the damned including the devil and his fallen angels. There are several words rendered as Hell: Hades - A Greek word. It is the place of the dead, the location of the person between death and resurrection. (See Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Acts 11:27; 1 Cor. 15:55; Rev. 1:18; 6:8). Gehenna - A Greek word. It was the place where dead bodies were dumped and burned (2 Kings 23:13-14). Jesus used the word to designate the place of eternal torment (Matt. 5:22,29,30; Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5). Sheol - A Hebrew word. It is the place of the dead, not necessarily the grave, but the place the dead go to. It is used of both the righteous (Psalm 16:10; 30:3; Isaiah 38:10) and the wicked (Num. 16:33; Job. 24:19; Psalm 9:17). Hell is a place of eternal fire (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 19:20). It was prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) and will be the abode of the wicked (Rev. 21:8) and the fallen angels (2 Pet. 2:4).

from carm.org
 
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Timothew

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Annihilationism is the view that whoever and whatever cannot be redeemed by God is ultimately put out of existence. Sentient beings do not suffer eternally, as the traditional view of hell teaches.I’m strongly inclined toward the annihilationist position. The reason is that it strikes me as the view that has the best biblical support. I’ll group the Scriptural data into 16 points. (For a fuller exposition of this, see the essay “The Case for Annihilationism”)
1) The Bible teaches that immortality belongs to God alone (I Tim. 6:16). God graciously offers immortality as a gift to people who align themselves with his will (e.g. John 3:15–16; 10:28; 17:2; Rom. 2:7; 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:42f; 50, 54; Gal. 6:8; 1 John 5:11). Those who choose to reject God’s will are denied this gift, following the pattern of Adam and Eve when God denied them access to “the tree of life” (Gen 3:22-24). This implies that all who reject the gift of eternal life perish. The traditional view of hell, however, assumes that people are inherently immortality, which is a Greek, not a biblical, view.
2) Scripture teaches that the wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9), but this doesn’t mean the wick endure “eternal destruction.” They rather experience “eternal destruction” the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of destruction (is that even a coherent concept?). The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.
3) If read in context, its clear that Scripture’s references to an “unquenchable fire” and “undying worm” refer to the finality of judgment, not its duration (Isa. 66:24, cf. 2 Kgs 22:17; 1:31; 51:8; Jer. 4:4; 7:20; 21:12; Ezek. 20:47–48). The fire is unquenchable in the sense that it cannot be put it out before it consumes those thrown into it. And the worm is undying in the sense that there is no hope for the condemned that it will be prevented from devouring their corpse.
4) Peter specifically cites the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as a pattern of how God judges the wicked. The Lord turned the inhabitants of these cities “to ashes” and “condemned them to extinction” thus making “them an example of what is coming to the ungodly…” (2 Pet. 2:6). Conversely, the Lord’s rescue of Lot sets a pattern for how the Lord will “rescue the godly from trial” (2 Pet. 2:9).
5) Throughout the Old Testament the Lord threatens the wicked with annihilation. About the wicked Moses says God will “blot out their names from under heaven” (Deut. 29:20). God will destroy them “like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah…which the Lord destroyed in his fierce anger…’” (Deut. 29:23).
6) All the metaphors about God’s judgment in the Old Testament imply total annihilation. For example, in Isaiah the Lord warns that “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together”: they “shall be consumed”; they will “…be like an oak whose leaf withers”; they will be like “tinder” and they and their work “shall burn together” (Isa 1:28, 30-31). Elsewhere Isaiah says the wicked will be like stubble and dry grass burned up in fire ( Isa 5:24).
7) In Pslams we read that the wicked shall be “like chaff that the wind drives away… the wicked will perish” (Ps. 1:4, 6). They shall be “blotted out of the book of the living…” (Ps. 69:28, cf. Deut. 29:20). God will “cut off the remembrance of them from the earth…(Ps. 34:16, 21). In the powerful words of Obediah, the wicked “shall be as though they had never been” (Obed. 16, emphasis added).
8 ) Along the same lines the Psalmist says the wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and…will be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there“ (Ps. 37:9–10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass [they shall] be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7–8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34, emphasis added). In short, the fate of the wicked is disintegration into nothingness.
9) Other Old Testament authors use similar annihilationist language to describe God’s judgment of the wicked. Daniel says rebells will be “like the chaff of the summer threshing floor” blown away by the wind “so that not a trace of them [can] be found” (Dan. 2:35). Nahum says that in the judgment the wicked “are consumed like dry straw” (Nahum 1:10). Malachi tells us that the judgment day shall come “burning like an oven” and “all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble.” The judgment thus “shall burn them up” (Mal. 4:1).
10) So too, Proverbs tells us that after God’s judgment “the wicked are no more…” (10:25, emphasis added). When God’s fury rises, “[t]he wicked are overthrown and are no more…” (12:7, emphasis added). And finally, “[t]he evil have no future; the lamp of the wicked will go out” (24:20). How can passages like this be reconciled with the traditional view that says the wicked will forever exist in conscious suffering?
11) Throughout the Old Testament we’re taught that while God’s anger endures for a moment, his love endures forever (Ps. 30:5; e.g. 2 Chr. 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21; Ps. 100:5; 103:9; 106:1; 107:1; Ps 118;1-4, 29; 136:10-26). How is this consistent with the traditional teaching that God’s love and anger are equally eternal?
12) Just as with the Old Testament, all the main metaphors used to describe God’s judgment in the New Testament imply annihilation. For example, John the Baptist proclaimed that “every tree…that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire” (Matt. 3:10). He announced that the Messiah “will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the grainary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire” (Matt. 3:12). Jesus himself describes hell as a consuming fire several times (Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6) as do a number of other passages (Heb 6:8, 10:7; Jude 7, cf. Isa 33:11).
13) The New Testament describes the fate of rebells as destruction. Jesus contrasts the wide gate that “leads to destruction” with the narrow gate that “leads to life” (Matt. 7:13). So too, he tells his disciples not to fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28). The implication is that God will do to the soul of the wicked what humans do to the body when they kill it. And this implies that the soul of the wicked will not go on existing in a conscious state after it has been destroyed.
Along the same lines, James teaches that God alone is able to both “save and destroy” (Jam. 4:12). Peter teaches that “destruction” awaits false, greedy teachers (2 Pet. 2:3). And Paul teaches that the quest for riches can plunge people into “ruin and destruction” (1 Tim. 6:9). Moreover, all who are “enemies of the cross” have “destruction” as their final end (Phil. 3:18–19, cf. 1:28). So too, if anyone “destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person” (1 Cor. 3:17). With the same force the apostle teaches that “udden destruction” will come upon the wicked in the last days (1 Thess. 5:3). This day is elsewhere described as a day for “the destruction of the godless” (2 Pet. 3:7). These passages seem to contradict the traditional view that damned souls are in fact never destroyed but rather endure endless torment.
14) The New Testament also frequently expresses the destiny of the wicked by depicting them as dying or perishing. John says Jesus came so that “everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life” (John 3:16). Paul utilizes this same contrast when he states that while those who proclaim the gospel are a “fragrance from life to life” to those “who are being saved,” it is “a fragrance from death to death” to those “who are perishing” (2 Cor. 2:15–16). So too, Paul teaches that “the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23, cf. 21, 1:32). This is consistent with Jesus teaching when he says that those who try to find life apart from God end up losing it (Matt. 10:39). Many other passages depict the fate of the wicked as death as well (Ja 1:15; 5:19; 1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 2:14. The repeated contrast in all these passages between “death,” losing life, and “perishing,” on the one hand, with “life,” on the other, seems quite incompatible with the contrast of eternal bliss with eternal pain which the traditional teaching on hell presupposes.
15) The most powerful scriptural passages that can be cited against annihilationism is Revelations 14:10-11 and 20:10. These speak of the wicked being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” Yet, these passages are not all that hard to explain. We must keep in mind that Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Its apocalyptic images should not be interpreted literally. This is particularly true of the phrase “for ever and ever” since similar phrases are used elsewhere in Scripture in contexts where they clearly cannot literally mean “unending” (e.g. Gen 49:26; Ex 40:15; Nu 25:13; Ps 24:7).
The most significant example of this is Isaiah 34:9-10, for it closely parallels the two passages in Revelation. In this passage Isaiah says that the fire that shall consume Edom shall burn “[n]ight and day” and “shall not be quenched.” Its smoke “shall go up forever” and no one shall pass through this land again “forever and ever.” Obviously, this is symbolic, for the fire and smoke of Edom’s judgment isn’t still ascending today. If we know the phrase isn’t literal in Isaiah, how much less inclined should we be to interpret a nearly identical expression literally in Revelation?
16) Finally, I find it impossible to reconcile the all important New Testament message that God is love (1 Jn 4:8, 16) with the traditional teaching that hell involves hopeless, conscious suffering. In the traditional view, the damned don’t suffer in order to learn anything. There’s nothing remedial about their pain. There’s literally no point to their suffering, other than the pain itself. And this pain is without hope of ever being terminated or relieved. How is this view at all compatible with a God whose heart was expressed on Calvary — when Jesus gave his life for these very people? Would we call a human being good or merciful – or anything other than cruel — who retaliated on his foes with this sort of unmitigated, insatiable, unending vengeance? Isn’t it more reasonable, and more biblical, to suppose that the God who gave his life for those who are damned would simply put them out of their misery if and when they became hopelessly irredeemable?
From the annihilationist perspective, God’s justice and mercy unite in condemning the wicked to extinction. He justly punishes their sin and forbids them a place within the Kingdom. And he eventually mercifully annihilates them precisely so they will not endlessly endure what the traditional view says they endure.

(Credit to Greg Boyd, his webpage is being restructured so I can't link to it.)
 
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he-man

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Annihilationism is the view that whoever and whatever cannot be redeemed by God is ultimately put out of existence. 13) The New Testament describes the fate of rebells as destruction. Jesus contrasts the wide gate that “leads to destruction” with the narrow gate that “leads to life” (Matt. 7:13). So too, he tells his disciples not to fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28). (Credit to Greg Boyd, his webpage is being restructured so I can't link to it.)
:thumbsup::amen:I like it, I like it, the wide gate that “leads to destruction” with the narrow gate that “leads to life” (Matt. 7:13).

I might add verse 14 and few there be that find it.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
 
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Timothew

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:thumbsup::amen:I like it, I like it, the wide gate that “leads to destruction” with the narrow gate that “leads to life” (Matt. 7:13).

I might add verse 14 and few there be that find it.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
"And few that find it."

Do you think that this is why our message meets such resistance from the many traditionalists out there? They would much rather hear that people go to hell for eating meat on friday than to hear that the wages of sin is death.
 
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Timothew

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Eternal destruction is of course destruction, and that destruction is eternal. They are destroyed and don't suddenly become undestroyed. Banished is another way to express this. If a person is banish from the kingdom, and it is only within the kingdom that you receieve eternal life, then they are banished to destruction.
 
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Timothew

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You need to look up the definition of banishment, it says nothing about the person not existing after being banished.
That is true. How about if a person is banished from the "tree of life"?
If I am banished from the bus, and then the bus drives over a cliff, then my banishment led to life. If I am banished from the bus and it is the only bus leaving a burning city, then I am banished to destruction in the burning city. If I am banished from the city of eternal life, then I am banished to destruction.
 
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Sophrosyne

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That is true. How about if a person is banished from the "tree of life"?
If I am banished from the bus, and then the bus drives over a cliff, then my banishment led to life. If I am banished from the bus and it is the only bus leaving a burning city, then I am banished to destruction in the burning city. If I am banished from the city of eternal life, then I am banished to destruction.
Banish is never equated with actual death, but separation. There is no way to link banishment to annihilation by the nature of banishment. I cannot see God both banishing someone AND annihilating them because that is being punished twice.
 
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Timothew

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Banish is never equated with actual death, but separation. There is no way to link banishment to annihilation by the nature of banishment. I cannot see God both banishing someone AND annihilating them because that is being punished twice.
Ok, I can see that you don't understand.

Have a nice day.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Ok, I can see that you don't understand.

Have a nice day.
I understand well, banishment means existence and defies your annihilationist view entirely. No just ruler ever banishes someone to instant death because banishment is ALWAYS considered separation and has NOTHING to do with annihilation.
 
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he-man

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You need to look up the definition of banishment, it says nothing about the person not existing after being banished.
Indeed...
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and[FONT=Georgia, serif] everlasting contempt. [/FONT]Hebrew nm. eternity


ורבים מישני אדמת-עפר יקיצו אלה לחיי עולם ואלה לחרפות לדראון עולם
 
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