Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[LutheranMafia]

ACT 14:15 ..the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Are you heaven/earth/sea??? Then you must be part of the 'all things' IMO.

The Greek for "all things" here is the word "pas", which is usually translated as all, but sometimes translated as "all men": all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11

1 Corinthians 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Including man/woman.

The Amplified Bible brings this verse into proper perspective:

For as woman was made from man, even so man is also born of woman; and all [whether male or female go forth] from God [as their Author].
​

You are getting caught up in the ephermal words used in a particular English translation and completely ignoring the context in the original Greek. Things is not used in the original Greek in either of the above cases.

1CO 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. [...] Jesus is "excepted" from being 'a thing' but we are not. All the following verses speak to or imply us also IMO.

Once again the Greek word pas is used here which means all people, not things.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Are you excluded from being subdued unto him?

And again, this is the Greek word pas. You are getting side tracked by the English in a manner that has nothing to do with the original context in Greek.

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) The very next verse speaks of gifts we receive...eg be filled with?

And again, this is the word pas--all people, not things.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Another verse proving we are things to be subdued unto Christ.

And again, the word for "thing" here is actually pas--all people.

COL 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,yet now hath he reconciled.. Are you reconciled?...The you are a thing.

And again, the word translated as thing is the word pas in Greek.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

And again, the word is pas. Etc, etc...

 

[Sum1sGruj]

I believe hell is in the middle of the Earth. After all, it'd be the best hidden place considering we'd never be able to dig down there, and Hell definitely holds no worth of being it's own realm.

 

[FredVB]

Oh please, that outburst of mine was the only such outburst I've seen on this thread. You are just trying to make a broad generalization about those who disagree with you as a means of feeling smug about your argument.

I just got tired of Hillsage, I find Universalism to be much more brain washed than Annihilationism. You give a pretty good argument that is frustrating because it is hard to argue against. In your case I often feel a sense of inadequacy of my arguments to resoundly contradict your point of view.

While we broadly agree on the topics of this thread, I want to pick out our point of disagreement here. I think that this belief that billions of people from other religions who do not believe as we do, are damned, is incorrect and plays into the hands of the opposing argument. It would be totally unjust torture for truly good people who simply didn't share the same intellectual beliefs as we do to suffer eternal torture. Such a belief in unjust torture plays into the hand of the opposing argument because they think of eternal torture as unjust for billions, which I think is true.

Speaking a word against Jesus is much more extreme than simply not believing because one is of another religion. I think this verse makes it clear that one is not damned simply for not having a certain intellectual belief about the nature of Jesus.

This should not be given up. I argued early on in this thread, or more specifically, more on the original thread. Arguing points many which were disregarded, the same dispute ignorant of those are continued here now.

I have shown the position of orthodoxy of lasting anguish in hell is not against the grace of God, which I have been supporting. On going anguish in hell is argued as illogical among the unorthodox as here, who would outnumber the orthodox in this forum section, but is supported in Bible passages with none from the bible truly denying it, and God's grace is held up in that, every one has a chance, all are given grace, as I have said, but many reject it, and from God true justice has to be expected. It will be fair.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7449497-26/#post54621432

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I read your link but all it was was you saying that on going hell is not illogical.

Let's start from the top. Why wasn't eternal hellfire torture preached back in the Torah when, around, or before Adam and Eve sinned? So far the only reasoning I've heard is that not all revelations about God came at once. I think that's a shallow reason at best. This is the fate of all those who sin against God. Its pretty damn important to know right then and there what's gonna happen.

Its a sick doctrine. Its brutal and unnecessary. Why good comes from God torturing these people for all eternity? How is this justice?

Let's read Jeremiah chapter 7

Jeremiah 7

1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 “Stand at the gate of the LORD’s house and there proclaim this message:
“‘Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the LORD. 3 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!” 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

9 “‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury,[a] burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things? 11 Has this house, which bears my Name, become a den of robbers to you? But I have been watching! declares the LORD.

12 “‘Go now to the place in Shiloh where I first made a dwelling for my Name, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of my people Israel. 13 While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer. 14 Therefore, what I did to Shiloh I will now do to the house that bears my Name, the temple you trust in, the place I gave to you and your ancestors. 15 I will thrust you from my presence, just as I did all your fellow Israelites, the people of Ephraim.’

16 “So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger. 19 But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place—on man and beast, on the trees of the field and on the crops of your land—and it will burn and not be quenched.

21 “‘This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Go ahead, add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices and eat the meat yourselves! 22 For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, 23 but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you. 24 But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. 25 From the time your ancestors left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. 26 But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their ancestors.’

27 “When you tell them all this, they will not listen to you; when you call to them, they will not answer. 28 Therefore say to them, ‘This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips.

29 “‘Cut off your hair and throw it away; take up a lament on the barren heights, for the LORD has rejected and abandoned this generation that is under his wrath.

30 “‘The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. 33 Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 34 I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate.

There's a few interesting things about this chapter.

1. God doesn't screw around.

2. He repeats the phrase "My anger and wrath will pour out on them, and it will burn and not be quenched." Its not just limited to the man though. Its to the beasts as well as the trees and the crops.

3. God specifically says that he did not command for Judah to burn their children in the fire as sacrifices. He did not command it nor did it even enter into his mind. Wouldn't this make God kind of a hypocrite to punish Judah for burning their kids as sacrifices but for Him to go right around and permanently burn everyone who chooses not to follow Him for all eternity?

 

[createdtoworship]

ETERNALITY OF HELL PROVEN

no one has answered my verse about the beast and the false prophet yet.

They were in hell a thousand years prior to satan being cast in.

That puts all your views down the tube.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

What the hell? What's been proven and upon what logic has it been proven? The way you worded that almost sounds like you're more focused on 'winning' than actually proving your point. Point out the parts of my post or whatever post you're looking at that proves eternal hell.

It says Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are to be tortured forever and ever if you take it literally. It then says that the grave and death are to be cast into hell as well. What happens to the grave and death, you could look at it as them being tortured forever and ever as well (though it specifically says this for satan and co. but not the grave) or you could look at it as them being wiped out.

It also puts a kink in the eternal hellfire for unbelievers as it mentions that those who take the mark of the beast would be subject to this. That significantly limits who will and will not be sent to this so called eternal hellfire. Why those people in particular? What happens to those ages ago who did not believe in God or even attempt to seek Him out?

Of course, this is the same book talking about how God will pluck the wicked up and mushing the of their blood like wine in a winepress so I would take what it says with a grain of salt.

Now its your turn. What about Jeremiah 7 and Eternal hellfire torture not being preached in the Torah? Why would God not warn Adam and Eve about something this serious? He promises them that they would surely die, not that they would surely be endanger of eternal punishment or anything of the sort.

 

[Timothew]

Oh please, that outburst of mine was the only such outburst I've seen on this thread. You are just trying to make a broad generalization about those who disagree with you as a means of feeling smug about your argument.

I just got tired of Hillsage, I find Universalism to be much more brain washed than Annihilationism. You give a pretty good argument that is frustrating because it is hard to argue against. Hillsage's argument is just brainwashed and is easy to argue against. In your case I often feel a sense of inadequacy of my arguments to resoundly contradict your point of view. In Hillsage's case I feel no such inadequecy, instead I feel the frustration that one might feel from trying to argue with a brainwashed cult victim. His argument's have no power and I don't think will convince anyone who isn't already convinced. Your arguments on the other hand have a certain potential to convinced the unconvinced, I think.

So what is your opinion of Universalism in general and Hillsage's arguments in particular? It seems to me that if you are glad to have him as an ally that you are desperate for people to agree with you. You argument's and his do not match up at all.

I can't accept universalism as biblical because of the times the bible warns that only some will enter the kingdom of God. Like everyone else, I wish universalism were true. I don't want anyone to perish.

It is true that I am "desperate" to have someone agree with "me". I've been modded so many times for just discussing conditional immortality, I'm sick of it. I'm angry that "annihilationism" can only be discussed in UT, when the biblical case for conditional immortality is so sound. People are ignorant about conditional immortality and then arrogantly call it untrue and assign it a place in Unorthodox Theology.

It's just sad, really. The bible is ignored in their desperate attempt to silence a hated doctrine.

 

[Hillsage]

You are getting caught up in the ephermal words used in a particular English translation and completely ignoring the context in the original Greek.

No, actually you're wrong again. Everything you posted was confirming what I told Evergreen. She was the one who said "People are never referred to in the scriptures as 'things'", so I posted all those scriptures to show her the error of her way. And then you come along and confirm exactly what I told her to begin with. Now I have to point out that I who am "brainwashed and is easy to argue against." must inform you that, defending my position and not even knowing it, is really kind of "nuts" of you...I'd say.

 

[Soulgazer]

What the hell? What's been proven and upon what logic has it been proven? The way you worded that almost sounds like you're more focused on 'winning' than actually proving your point. Point out the parts of my post or whatever post you're looking at that proves eternal hell.

It says Satan, the beast, and the false prophet are to be tortured forever and ever if you take it literally. It then says that the grave and death are to be cast into hell as well. What happens to the grave and death, you could look at it as them being tortured forever and ever as well (though it specifically says this for satan and co. but not the grave) or you could look at it as them being wiped out.

It also puts a kink in the eternal hellfire for unbelievers as it mentions that those who take the mark of the beast would be subject to this. That significantly limits who will and will not be sent to this so called eternal hellfire. Why those people in particular? What happens to those ages ago who did not believe in God or even attempt to seek Him out?

Of course, this is the same book talking about how God will pluck the wicked up and mushing the of their blood like wine in a winepress so I would take what it says with a grain of salt.

Now its your turn. What about Jeremiah 7 and Eternal hellfire torture not being preached in the Torah? Why would God not warn Adam and Eve about something this serious? He promises them that they would surely die, not that they would surely be endanger of eternal punishment or anything of the sort.

I am agreeing with you. The "Apocalypse of John" is continually taken out of context in a self destructive effort to hurry the end of the world. It is a visionary text, which should automatically clue the reader into the mindset of the author, who was probably not the Apostle John, but a self described "prophet" by the same name, a Messianic Jew of the Apocalyptic sect who saw Paul as a "False Prophet". (Messianic Jews differed only from more Temple Judaism in that they believed that Jesus was the promised Messiah who would liberate Israel from Roman occupation.) Paul was considered a heretic by Messianic Jews, a "false prophet", and a "Liar", who was leading people away from the Law of the Torah and the enemy of the militant Messianic movement, whom did not forgive their enemies, but wished nothing but death and eternal destruction upon them.

Temple Judaism, did not believe in an afterlife. Period. The idea of an afterlife was introduced by Hellenized Jews about 200BC, and popularized, along with the idea of a pre-existent Messiah figure, in the multiple books attributed to "Enoch". Any "afterlife" in the Hebrew Torah has to be read in, as "salvation" was the continued existence of the nation of Israel under Temple Judaism.( which is as extinct as the Wooly Mammoth.) The Pharisee, were Hellenized, but the Sadducee, who were in charge of the Temple, Scripture and Doctrine, stayed true to their roots, and resolutely never accepted the idea of an afterlife.

 

[LutheranMafia]

No, actually you're wrong again. Everything you posted was confirming what I told Evergreen. She was the one who said "People are never referred to in the scriptures as 'things'", so I posted all thos scriptures to show her the error of her way. And then you come along and confirm exactly what I told her to begin with. Now I have to point out that I who am "brainwashed and is easy to argue against." must inform you that, defending my position and not even knowing it, is really kind of "nuts" of you...I'd say.

In each case it is the particualr English translation that you reference that uses the word 'things'. Other translations do not. You are getting caught up in the KJV English as if it were the original language, which it is not and the KJV does not always do a very good job of capturing the original meaning, this being an extremely dramatic example where people are translated to things.

The original verse that you quoted was correct in the use of the word thing as the translation, but none of your other verses were. So the original criticism stands proven.

 

[Hillsage]

The original verse that you quoted was correct in the use of the word thing as the translation, but none of your other verses were. So the original criticism stands proven.

Wrong again LM.

Do I need to remind you of your own words in post 688; "I don't see anything further to discuss here" . I think it was a good advice and I think you ought to follow it.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I read your link but all it was was you saying that on going hell is not illogical.

Let's start from the top. Why wasn't eternal hellfire torture preached back in the Torah when, around, or before Adam and Eve sinned? So far the only reasoning I've heard is that not all revelations about God came at once.

No, you have been given OT verses that speak of eternal torment twice now. Here they are a third time:

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Isaiah 66:22-24
​

Its a sick doctrine. Its brutal and unnecessary. Why good comes from God torturing these people for all eternity? How is this justice?

It is not a matter of good or evil coming from it, it is simply a product of the spirit being immortal. As to justice, how is it unjust for Hitler's spirit to suffer eternal torment?

3. God specifically says that he did not command for Judah to burn their children in the fire as sacrifices. He did not command it nor did it even enter into his mind. Wouldn't this make God kind of a hypocrite to punish Judah for burning their kids as sacrifices but for Him to go right around and permanently burn everyone who chooses not to follow Him for all eternity?

You are comparing eternal damnation for Hitler to infanticide? Come on now, don't you think that is a little over the top?

 

[LutheranMafia]

I've been modded so many times for just discussing conditional immortality, I'm sick of it. I'm angry that "annihilationism" can only be discussed in UT, when the biblical case for conditional immortality is so sound. People are ignorant about conditional immortality and then arrogantly call it untrue and assign it a place in Unorthodox Theology.

I missed that, I've never seen you mention "conditional immorality" before. What is that?

It's just sad, really. The bible is ignored in their desperate attempt to silence a hated doctrine.

I don't think being moved to the UT is a form of silencing. Annihilationism is clearly unorthdox. I don't see it as a form of silencing. It is quite telling that your ranks have increased since being moved to UT. Why does it make you so angry that the thread was moved from GT to UT?

 

[Timothew]

I missed that, I've never seen you mention "conditional immorality" before. What is that?

Conditional Immortality is a less "loaded" term for annihilationism. It just means that immortality is only granted by God under certain conditions, by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. The term "annihilationism" is given by people who usually don't believe in conditional immortality. "Annihilationism" as a term doesn't truly describe what I believe, although it is close.

I don't think being moved to the UT is a form of silencing. Annihilationism is clearly unorthdox. I don't see it as a form of silencing. It is quite telling that your ranks have increased since being moved to UT. Why does it make you so angry that the thread was moved from GT to UT?

Would you be angry if the divinity of Jesus Christ was said to be unorthodox and only allowed to be discussed in UT? How about the trinity?
If you believed Jesus was born of a virgin, but anytime you said so in GT they modded your post and sent the thread to UT, you would also be angry. The Bible (Romans 6:23) specifically and clearly says that the wages of sin is death NOT eternal torment, so if any viewpoint should be only allowed to be discussed in UT, it should be the POV that there is eternal torment in hell for sinners.

No, you have been given OT verses that speak of eternal torment twice now. Here they are a third time:

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Isaiah 66:22-24
​

This passage absolutely does not support the theory of eternal torment. Note that bodies that the worms are chewing on and the fire is burning are dead bodies. This passage supports conditional immortality (annihilationism) more than eternal tormentalism because those who rebelled against the Lord are no longer living, they are dead.

 

[Timothew]

IWhy does it make you so angry that the thread was moved from GT to UT?

Statements like this gem from Arbiter:

This thread needs to be moved into the dumpster of unorthodox theology like the rest.

 

[LutheranMafia]

This passage absolutely does not support the theory of eternal torment. Note that bodies that the worms are chewing on and the fire is burning are dead bodies.

That is only because you have the essentially atheistic belief that death is an end.

This passage supports conditional immortality (annihilationism) more than eternal tormentalism because those who rebelled against the Lord are no longer living, they are dead.

Only if you think of death as an end.

You don't seem to have any concept of a true afterlife???

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

No, you have been given OT verses that speak of eternal torment twice now. Here they are a third time:

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
Isaiah 66:22-24
​

It is not a matter of good or evil coming from it, it is simply a product of the spirit being immortal. As to justice, how is it unjust for Hitler's spirit to suffer eternal torment?


You are comparing eternal damnation for Hitler to infanticide? Come on now, don't you think that is a little over the top?

Yes, I'm comparing eternal damnation for Hitler to infantcide. Also, if you sneeze during a sermon, you should have your nose cut off.

-_-

We seem to view good and bad and those who follow God and those who do not in terms of black and white. Not good. Its easy to debate in terms of extremes, but what about those morally good but spiritually dead to God? Or those who followed God as a child, but turned into corrupt despicable human beings as an adult? They honestly accepted Christ into their hearts when they were young. Do these people deserve to burn forever and ever in hell? What if the scenario is vice versa, and they did great evil as a child/teen, but turned into a good person as they grew older and started following God?

As Timothew pointed out, you keep giving me the same verse (thrice now) that just doesn't point to eternal suffering in hell. You have worms devouring your flesh and you're burning constantly. Paradox. You'd also be in a place that's completely dark despite being surrounded by flames. Paradox.

I still haven't received a satisfactory answer regarding eternal torment not being talked about in the Old Testament. As far as I know (which is limited I admit), they weren't sure about any sort of afterlife. While I can't really say I'm worried about the fate of Hitler or Stalin, I am worried about those whose lives have become a living hell and are bitter because of it. Those people who were once great men and women of God whose lives are but a mere shell of their former self. Those who have rough lives and are struggling just to keep on living.

As far as the burning part, I was saying that it would be hypocritical of God to punish people giving up their children to be sacrificed by burning, but then turn right around and punish unbelievers for all eternity with hellfire.

 

[Timothew]

That is only because you have the essentially atheistic belief that death is an end.


Only if you think of death as an end.

You don't seem to have any concept of a true afterlife???

I believe death is death. You can see dead people. But that's not the end of the story. One day (the last day) Jesus Christ will return and call all of the dead out of their graves. Then He will judge each one. He will grant eternal life to those who are with Him. Those who oppose Him will not receive eternal life. The opposite of eternal life is death. This is the true afterlife, it is life after this life. Being resurrected by Jesus Christ on the last day and living forever with Him on the new earth.

Atheistic means that someone believes there is no God. This is NOT what I believe. I believe there is a God. How am I atheistic?

 

[gort]

If anything it proves that those still around in the end times will be subject to this punishment. It says nothing about those already dead. The dead cannot receiveth a mark in the beast's name, assuming we are taking this as stuff that will literally play out.

So, there is a eternal torment that you would confess to. It would appear that we don't need to have a proof of it going back as far as the garden of Eden after all.

 

[gort]

Simple my friend. This is the imagery of a man angry at the destruction of his country; it is comparable to all of the "MIA" movies that happened in the seventies, where the hero would go into post war Vietnam to rescue compatriots. It is a late first century version of "Inglorious Bast*rds". It's a fabrication of desired events that express the frustration of unfulfilled hopes of all Jews who were waiting for the liberation of their country from Rome. The author, being of the Apocalyptic sect, would also be Messianic, still misunderstanding the mission of Jesus in this paragraph, and he is expressing frustration that the Jewish understanding of a militaristic messiah has not yet taken place by placing it inside a visionary text of (his) near future. The real Jesus would have spoken the same words to this man that He spoke in Luke 9:55. "And turning, he rebuked them, saying: You know not of what manner of Spirit you are of."

Maybe not so simple? Looks prophetic to me rather than a fabrication of desired events by a man who still misunderstands the mission of Jesus. It is believed by most to have been written by the disciple John, writer of one of the gospels (my favourite) who probably was given more clarity about Christ than any other person I can think of.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
Rev 1:2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.