Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[LutheranMafia]

What does this verse say?

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That does not refer to the fire of Hell. Nowhere does this verse say Gehanna, Tartarus or Hades. It is referring to a metaphore for tempering as in Zechariah 13:9, Job 23:10, Psalm 66:10, Psalm 17:3 and James 1:12. None of these verses say Sheol (Old Tesstament) or Gehanna, Tartarus or Hades (New Testament).

“And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”
Zechariah 13:9

But He knows the way that I take [He has concern for it, appreciates, and pays attention to it]. When He has tried me, I shall come forth as refined gold [pure and luminous].
Job 23:10

For You, O God, have proved us; You have tried us as silver is tried, refined, and purified.
Psalm 66:10

You have proved my heart; You have visited me in the night; You have tried me and find nothing [no evil purpose in me]; I have purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.
Psalm 17:3

Blessed (happy, to be envied) is the man who is patient under trial and stands up under temptation, for when he has stood the test and been approved, he will receive [the victor's] crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him.
James 1:12
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[LutheranMafia]

Nitpicking. If it's talking about no more Night, then it follows that having a sun talks of day.

Sun = day + night

It is in no way referring to a cessation of time, it is referring to a cessation of spiritual darkness as opposed to the Light of God.

 

[Hillsage]

Love is a feeling. My point was that we are not saved by intellectual concepts, we are saved precisely by our feelings of love.

1CO 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Bearing, believing and hoping are not feeling's based they are decision based. If you're speaking of ergos or phileo love you might have a basis for your belief, but when it comes to God's AGAPE I'll stand on scripture.

You didn't address the substance of my rebuttal: Jesus said "I never knew you." That is forever, they were never with God at any time, and thus never will be.

I did address the substance you just missed it because of your doctrinal POV.

Where does the Bible refer to their being three or four ages? (It is unclear exactly how many you are counting here.)

Bingo...that was exactly my point, nobody knows how many ages there are but God. All I know is that scripture is plain that God will fulfill his plan of the ages 'after His counsel' and not that of orthodoxy...according to the scripture below.

EPH 1:9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,

From the above it is obvious that you are not one of the "us" he has revealed "the mystery of his will" too. What exactly does the "plan for the fullness of times" mean to you. Does "uniting all things in him" mean a torture chamber full for eternity. And notice that all things are "according to the counsel of his will" and not the orthodox church. Or should I change 'counsel of his WISHES' since God really doesn't have a plan...just a big birthday cake..."I wish it would all turn out."

 

[Dillinger]

If we need tags then 'Christian Universalist' will do...

Okay. Just wanted clarity. So, what exactly are these "purging fires?" Something akin to the Catholic purgatory?

 

[Soulgazer]

An alchemical approach is not out of keeping with the nature of the True God. Philip wrote :

"[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]55.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Vessels of glass and vessels of pottery always come forth thru fire. But if glass vessels break they are recast, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]([/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]for[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]¹) [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]they had come to be by means of a breath[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]²[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Yet if pottery vessels break they are destroyed, for they had come to be without breath.[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif](Gen 2:7, Jn 20:22;[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]¹asyndeton; ²=spirit; ceramics can only be recast before firing: Jer 18:4-10/19:11; hyperlinear) [/FONT]

 

[LutheranMafia]

1CO 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Bearing, believing and hoping are not feeling's based they are decision based.

Can thine heart endure
Ezekiel 22:14

Be strong and take heart, all you who hope in the LORD.
Psalm 31:24
​

Endurance and hope are things of the heart, not the intellect. And what does it mean to believe all things? Hint, it is not talking about intellectual belief, but belief of the heart. The heart and feelings can believe or disbelieve just as well as the intellect can.

If you're speaking of ergos or phileo love you might have a basis for your belief, but when it comes to God's AGAPE I'll stand on scripture.

You are making up your interpretation of scripture as you go along. Agape is even more a thing of the heart than eros and phileo. Eros especially can be an egotistical possessive thing that is not of the heart at all, totally unlike agape.

I did address the substance you just missed it because of your doctrinal POV.

You dismissed the critical issue with a trivial remark, you did not address it.

Bingo...that was exactly my point, nobody knows how many ages there are but God. All I know is that scripture is plain that God will fulfill his plan of the ages 'after His counsel' and not that of orthodoxy...according to the scripture below.

Why would there be more than two ages when Jesus only spoke of two ages? You fabricating a doctrine out of thin air.

EPH 1:9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,

From the above it is obvious that you are not one of the "us" he has revealed "the mystery of his will" too.

You are so modest. Clearly you believe that God has revealed His plan especially to you and not to the vast majority of Christians.

What exactly does the "plan for the fullness of times" mean to you. Does "uniting all things in him" mean a torture chamber full for eternity.

You are constructing a whole doctrine based on overgeneralizing a single sentence. Uniting all things in Him means that all human life will be united in God someday. You can't use this verse to nullify other verses in the Bible that you don't like, you are taking it completely out of context.

And notice that all things are "according to the counsel of his will" and not the orthodox church. Or should I change 'counsel of his WISHES' since God really doesn't have a plan...just a big birthday cake..."I wish it would all turn out."

God desires the the world do nothing but good RIGHT NOW. Will and desire are two different things, but you can't seem to pry them apart. Desire and will can run contrary given the hard facts of reality.

 

[Hillsage]

Why would there be more than two ages when Jesus only spoke of two ages? You fabricating a doctrine out of thin air.

I'm just going to say that any more discussion of ages, love and heart, as topics, really just isn't worth discussing LM. I told you discussing heart wasn't going to be worth starting on to begin with, but you didn't listen. I'll just let you enjoy your view and I'll enjoy mine.

You are so modest.

Thank you LM, I'm kind of surprised to hear you even say that. Since true modesty isn't just 'not thinking more highly of oneself than you ought', but it is also 'not thinking more lowly than one ought'. And being steeped in the false modesty of nominal Christianity, as you have demonstrated, I'm surprised you saw through it enough to give such a compliment.

Clearly you believe that God has revealed His plan especially to you and not to the vast majority of Christians.

And I believe you're also correct concerning my 'revelation from God' versus yours from the church. Unfortunately most of 'the church' really wasn't getting much revelation at all, based upon my 25 years in that environment (many of which were in leadership positions). My experience was that most are bottom feeders with a minimalist salvation experience who are merely eating up whatever a pulpit puts out on Sunday. Scripture would seem to support that view too concerning majority understanding. Every time Israel voted as the majority in the bible, they too missed God. Sadly some things just don't change and history repeats itself.

PRO 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things (from all), but the glory of kings (the minority) is to search things out.
I'm content with my scripturally supported 'minority' view versus your "majority" one.

You are constructing a whole doctrine based on overgeneralizing a single sentence. Uniting all things in Him means that all human life will be united in God someday. You can't use this verse to nullify other verses in the Bible that you don't like, you are taking it completely out of context.

Your quote above proves my very point. You couldn't deal with the verse and the questions I asked, so you want to 'duck and jive' because you have no scriptural defense. I say it supports my view of God along with the rest of 'correctly translated scripture'. So please just answer the questions of that verse with your point of view AND SCRIPTURE.

God desires the the world do nothing but good RIGHT NOW. Will and desire are two different things, but you can't seem to pry them apart. Desire and will can run contrary given the hard facts of reality.

Everything you just said is in opposition to the defined definitions of any quality reference out there. And if you're serving a 'wishing' deist view of God, then you have my sincere theist condolences.

 

[LutheranMafia]

And I believe you're also correct concerning my 'revelation from God' versus yours from the church. Unfortunately most of 'the church' really wasn't getting much revelation at all, based upon my 25 years in that environment (many of which were in leadership positions).

Well good for you, you were in a leadership position. My view does not come from any church.

You are very egotistical about your experience. I don't see anything further to discuss here. Everyone that believes in either no torment or universalism has run for cover because you are clearly a nut cases that they want nothing to do with.

 

[gort]

It never says anywhere that He died for only those who believe. The scriptures say He redeemed everyone. ALL mankind.

You believe that everyone is already redeemed? Isn't it rational from the scriptures below that whosoever does NOT believe will have neither eternal life and shall perish?

Joh 3:15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I get a bit confused as to why people think He only died for believers.

Because of the same scriptures I quoted?

Does that mean until I say the sinners prayer or the equivalent then He didn't die for me yet?

I would say that until you are reborn, you're not saved yet.

Of course the flesh has to be dealt with... it has to die.

Says who? If I died tomorrow and my flesh was'nt dealt with, am I then unsaved?

Because all have been redeemed and will one day be 'saved'.

CFR please

What does this verse say?

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Or don't you believe it?

Only Jesus saves. Fire does not. If you believe that a cleansing, purifying fire of any sort plays a salvific role, then you have a biblical contradiction.

So you believe that if they are not for the faithless too then we, the faithful, are still to be cleansed by fire... still adding to the work of Christ Jesus?

Would you please show the scripture that pertains to being cleansed by fire? Otherwise, there is nothing I should dare add to the work of Christ. You?

 

[gort]

Is there such a thing as time in the eternals?

Rev 22:5 And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Eternals is a reference to time.

 

[gort]

Gort, my friend, you are taking "Revelation" out of context. It's real name is the "Apocalypse of John"; Apocalypse does not mean "disaster" or "end of the world" or any such modern nonsense. It means "unveiling". It is the unveiling of one mans internal spiritual journey, it's value is in the insight into one man's mind. This author, apparently of Jewish decent and a witness to the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome is issuing the traditional Jewish cry of "How long, oh lord, how long!". The images in his mind are the events in his psyche, as he "unveils" his internal journey into types and images.

What do you think these types and images signify?

Rev_14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

What do you think these types and images signify?

Rev_14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

If anything it proves that those still around in the end times will be subject to this punishment. It says nothing about those already dead. The dead cannot receiveth a mark in the beast's name, assuming we are taking this as stuff that will literally play out.

 

[Soulgazer]

What do you think these types and images signify?

Rev_14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

Simple my friend. This is the imagery of a man angry at the destruction of his country; it is comparable to all of the "MIA" movies that happened in the seventies, where the hero would go into post war Vietnam to rescue compatriots. It is a late first century version of "Inglorious Bast*rds". It's a fabrication of desired events that express the frustration of unfulfilled hopes of all Jews who were waiting for the liberation of their country from Rome. The author, being of the Apocalyptic sect, would also be Messianic, still misunderstanding the mission of Jesus in this paragraph, and he is expressing frustration that the Jewish understanding of a militaristic messiah has not yet taken place by placing it inside a visionary text of (his) near future. The real Jesus would have spoken the same words to this man that He spoke in Luke 9:55. "And turning, he rebuked them, saying: You know not of what manner of Spirit you are of."

 

[Soulgazer]

double post

 

[Evergreen48]

EPH 1:9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him, according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will,

Nothing is said in Ephesians 1:10 about a "plan for the fullness of times". That is one of the worst renderings for Ephesians 1:9-10 that I have ever read. The following is a rendering from the original Greek text:

9. "Having made known to us the secret of his will, according to his own benevolent design, which he previously purposed in hinself. 10. In regard to an administration of the fullness of the appointed times, to unite all things under one head, even under the Annointed One; the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth under him."

*snip* . . . . . . . What exactly does the "plan for the fullness of times" mean to you. Does "uniting all things in him" mean a torture chamber full for eternity.. . . . .

People are never referred to in the scriptures as 'things'. Thus, it stands to reason that people are not one of the 'all things' mentioned in
Ephesians 1:9-10 that was to be united in him. As to the "plan for the fullness of times': God does not plan. God purposes. And at his appointed time, or season, his purpose came to its fruition and was resolved. Christ is now the 'head' of all things in heaven and on earth; that is, 'all' things which would pertain to the spiritual realm of his church. For we know that certainly he is not, and never will be, the head of any evil which exists on earth. And it goes without saying that there is no evil in the spiritual realm called heaven.

 

[Hillsage]

Well good for you, you were in a leadership position. My view does not come from any church.

Neither did mine and that's why 2 years ago God called me out of what you call...'the church'.

You are very egotistical about your experience. Everyone that believes in either no torment or universalism has run for cover because you are clearly a nut cases that they want nothing to do with.

Assurance is often mistaken for arrogance/egotism by those who have poor discernment. And it wasn't a "run for cover" for me LM. I was born again Spirit baptized and firmly believed in OSAS. So I was running 'for the truth'...not 'from the torture chamber' of nominal Christianity.

I don't see anything further to discuss here.

I hope you mean this. No answer would be truly appreciated. One day we will both "know as we have been known".

 

[Timothew]

Everyone that believes in either no torment or universalism has run for cover because you are clearly a nut cases that they want nothing to do with.

Not really. Most of the people who do not believe in eternal torment have left because of the anger of the pro-torment crowd. At least that is the case for me. Oh well, they will be known by their fruit.

 

[Hillsage]

Nothing is said in Ephesians 1:10 about a "plan for the fullness of times". That is one of the worst renderings for Ephesians 1:9-10 that I have ever read. The following is a rendering from the original Greek text:

Are you reading what you posted below??? Plus the use of that word in the rest of the NT. Plan isn't a 'hang up' definition for this application.

9. "Having made known to us the secret of his will, according to his own benevolent design, which he previously purposed in hinself. 10. In regard to an administration of the fullness of the appointed times, to unite all things under one head, even under the Annointed One; the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth under him."

People are never referred to in the scriptures as 'things'. Thus, it stands to reason that people are not one of the 'all things' mentioned in
For we know that certainly he is not, and never will be, the head of any evil which exists on earth. And it goes without saying that there is no evil in the spiritual realm called heaven.

ACT 14:15 ..the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Are you heaven/earth/sea??? Then you must be part of the 'all things' IMO.

1 Corinthians 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Including man/woman.

1CO 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. Jesus is "excepted" from being 'a thing' but we are not. All the following verses speak to or imply us also IMO.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Are you excluded from being subdued unto him?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) The very next verse speaks of gifts we receive...eg be filled with?

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Another verse proving we are things to be subdued unto Christ.

COL 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,yet now hath he reconciled.. Are you reconciled?...The you are a thing.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

Hebrews 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
"Let us create man (a thing) in our image."

And at his appointed time, or season, his purpose came to its fruition and was resolved. Christ is now the 'head' of all things in heaven and on earth; that is, 'all' things which would pertain to the spiritual realm of his church.

EPH 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I submit that God does call us "things".

Ephesians 1:9-10 that was to be united in him. As to the "plan for the fullness of times': God does not plan. God purposes.

Don't grasp the shadow and miss the substance. The point is HIS PURPOSE isn't fulfilled yet and won't for "ages" to come. OK?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Not really. Most of the people who do not believe in eternal torment have left because of the anger of the pro-torment crowd. At least that is the case for me. Oh well, they will be known by their fruit.

Oh please, that outburst of mine was the only such outburst I've seen on this thread. You are just trying to make a broad generalization about those who disagree with you as a means of feeling smug about your argument.

I just got tired of Hillsage, I find Universalism to be much more brain washed than Annihilationism. You give a pretty good argument that is frustrating because it is hard to argue against. Hillsage's argument is just brainwashed and is easy to argue against. In your case I often feel a sense of inadequacy of my arguments to resoundly contradict your point of view. In Hillsage's case I feel no such inadequecy, instead I feel the frustration that one might feel from trying to argue with a brainwashed cult victim. His argument's have no power and I don't think will convince anyone who isn't already convinced. Your arguments on the other hand have a certain potential to convinced the unconvinced, I think.

So what is your opinion of Universalism in general and Hillsage's arguments in particular? It seems to me that if you are glad to have him as an ally that you are desperate for people to agree with you. You argument's and his do not match up at all.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You believe that everyone is already redeemed? Isn't it rational from the scriptures below that whosoever does NOT believe will have neither eternal life and shall perish?

Joh 3:15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

While we broadly agree on the topics of this thread, I want to pick out our point of disagreement here. I think that this belief that billions of people from other religions who do not believe as we do, are damned, is incorrect and plays into the hands of the opposing argument. It would be totally unjust torture for truly good people who simply didn't share the same intellectual beliefs as we do to suffer eternal torture. Such a belief in unjust torture plays into the hand of the opposing argument because they think of eternal torture as unjust for billions, which I think is true.

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Matthew 12:32
​

Speaking a word against Jesus is much more extreme than simply not believing because one is of another religion. I think this verse makes it clear that one is not damned simply for not having a certain intellectual belief about the nature of Jesus.