Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[Dillinger]

These scriptures are not just talking about 'believers'. ALL mankind has already been redeemed and bought with a price. ALL mankind will undergo the fires of purging to the flesh (which is what man's work is.. done by the flesh).

Are you a "universalist?"

 

[gort]

I agree, it's not a matter of one paying a last cent for their own sins. Christ has ALREADY paid for every single sin. It's a matter of dealing with the flesh. Even though we are clean by the washing of the word and we know our sins are forgiven, the flesh must still be dealt with. This is the point of the scriptures concerning fire. Our being tested and tried so as by fire.

And why must the flesh be dealt with when all things done by the flesh are as dirty rags? Otherwise, Christ has paid the sin for all mankind yes, but just for those who believe.

1Pe 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

how does this fit for the faithless?

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Hope you're not thinking fire saves souls. Remember, works don't save either.

Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

These scriptures are not just talking about 'believers'. ALL mankind has already been redeemed and bought with a price. ALL mankind will undergo the fires of purging to the flesh (which is what man's work is.. done by the flesh).

If these scriptures are also for the faithless, then you compound the problem by adding works and a cleaning of the flesh by fire to the work of Christ Jesus.

 

[Soulgazer]

"Now, then, you who are outside the inheritance of the Father, weep where it behooves you and grieve and proclaim that which is good, since the Son is ascending appropriately. In truth I say to you, had it been to those who would listen to me that I was sent, and had it been with them that I was to speak, I would have never descended upon the earth. And now, then, be ashamed on account of them."~ Secret James

 

[Lysimachus]

Lord Herdsetk is hittin the nails right on the heads. =]

 

[Timothew]

Well that is rather arrogant, I do not presume to speak for God. This is just common sense, and it is also the thrust of the argument of your compatriot, Timothew, who asserts that there is no eternal punishment in annihilation. He believes that the wages of sin is absolute death, annihilation, and as such cannot be eternal punishment.

Please do not speak for me. I believe that annihilation IS eternal punishment. How could annihilation not be eternal? How is it NOT punishment? Once again, you show that you do NOT understand what I post.

 

[Lysimachus]

Please do not speak for me. I believe that annihilation IS eternal punishment. How could annihilation not be eternal? How is it NOT punishment? Once again, you show that you do NOT understand what I post.

Very well said Timothew. You see, they don't seem to understand that non-existence is a form of punishment. To not have the blessing of life is in itself punishment. It is eternal punishment. Eternal death. Eternal separation from God.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in hell. Not eternal misery.

 

[gort]

Rev_14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

someone want to explain how non-existence has no rest day and night? Please be coherent.

 

[createdtoworship]

Rev_14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

someone want to explain how non-existence has no rest day and night? Please be coherent.

Most churches believe in eternal torment...
catholic, orthodox, anglican, methodist, anabaptist, baptist, pentecostal all believe in eternal torment only two of the churches in study rejected eternal hell and three refused to comment on the duration of hell. - Denominations comparison chart by rose publishing.

 

[gort]

Most churches believe in eternal torment...
catholic, orthodox, anglican, methodist, anabaptist, baptist, pentecostal all believe in eternal torment only two of the churches in study rejected eternal hell and three refused to comment on the duration of hell. - Denominations comparison chart by rose publishing.

I myself have no choice but to believe in eternal torment as per the scriptures. The verse I posted is clear about that. But some say that non-existence is a punishment and, normally that could be correct. However, a state of non-existence that has no rest day and night eternally is irrational.

 

[createdtoworship]

I myself have no choice but to believe in eternal torment as per the scriptures. The verse I posted is clear about that. But some say that non-existence is a punishment and, normally that could be correct. However, a state of non-existence that has no rest day and night eternally is irrational.

they will just say that revelation is figurative, but that is taking away of the words of the book.

King James Bible
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

REVELATION 22:19

also another revelation argument for eternal torment...

the beast and the prophet were in hell a thousand years before satan was cast in....

"the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet....These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" Revelation 19:20

"An angel ....having ....a great chain in his hand ...and laid hold of the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"
Revelation 20:1-2

And just a few verses later again...

"and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
Revelation 20:10

So the beast and the prophet were in Hell for a thousand years and did not die or annihilate...

 

[Soulgazer]

Rev_14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

someone want to explain how non-existence has no rest day and night? Please be coherent.

Gort, my friend, you are taking "Revelation" out of context. It's real name is the "Apocalypse of John"; Apocalypse does not mean "disaster" or "end of the world" or any such modern nonsense. It means "unveiling". It is the unveiling of one mans internal spiritual journey, it's value is in the insight into one man's mind. This author, apparently of Jewish decent and a witness to the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome is issuing the traditional Jewish cry of "How long, oh lord, how long!". The images in his mind are the events in his psyche, as he "unveils" his internal journey into types and images.

 

[Tavita]

Are you a "universalist?"

If we need tags then 'Christian Universalist' will do...

 

[Tavita]

And why must the flesh be dealt with when all things done by the flesh are as dirty rags? Otherwise, Christ has paid the sin for all mankind yes, but just for those who believe.

It never says anywhere that He died for only those who believe. The scriptures say He redeemed everyone. ALL mankind.

I get a bit confused as to why people think He only died for believers. Does that mean until I say the sinners prayer or the equivalent then He didn't die for me yet?

Of course the flesh has to be dealt with... it has to die.

how does this fit for the faithless?

Because all have been redeemed and will one day be 'saved'.

Hope you're not thinking fire saves souls. Remember, works don't save either.

What does this verse say?

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Or don't you believe it?

If these scriptures are also for the faithless, then you compound the problem by adding works and a cleaning of the flesh by fire to the work of Christ Jesus.

So you believe that if they are not for the faithless too then we, the faithful, are still to be cleansed by fire... still adding to the work of Christ Jesus?

 

[Tavita]

Rev_14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

someone want to explain how non-existence has no rest day and night? Please be coherent.

Is there such a thing as time in the eternals?

Rev 22:5 And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[LutheranMafia]

By intellectual I wasn't talking about smarts. I was talking about a decision having to be made and not going by a feeling. Whether you make that decision in your head or your heart is a mute point IMO. Not worth debating.

Love is a feeling. My point was that we are not saved by intellectual concepts, we are saved precisely by our feelings of love.

No, I dealt with it and you disagree.

You didn't address the substance of my rebuttal: Jesus said "I never knew you." That is forever, they were never with God at any time, and thus never will be.

It does not say "never be forgiven". Read the text, it says "not be forgiven...in this age or the age to come". This was spoken in the age of the law and before Jesus had even made salvation possible. There are at least two more ages ahead according to scripture which was written in the present church age.

Where does the Bible refer to their being three or four ages? (It is unclear exactly how many you are counting here.) The "shall not be forgiven" part does not apply only to certain ages, it is an absolute statement, without reprieve.

EPH 2:7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Jesus never sowed the tares. So those people/tares will have to go through the purgative fires of judgment in the next age. What did Jesus say about them after they'd been judged and purged...sort of like the people in purgatory which you believe in.

The tares are not of God, God never knew them, their souls shall be destroyed. There is no comming back from annihilation of the soul.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​

MAT 13:42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Do you have ears to hear what Jesus is saying here? Most don't. They go into the furnace and come out righteous after having paid every last cent and bowing the knee.

That is not what it is saying at all, the righteous are not being thrown into the furnace. You are really twisting the verse. Throwing the wicked into Hell and the righteous shining like the sun are simultaneous events. It is the removal of the wicked and their pervasive negative spiritual effect on the world, that causes the light of the righteous to finally be released. It is in the absence of the wicked that the righteous come to shine like the sun. This verse is not describing a tempering of the righteous by fire, the righteous are not being thrown into Hell. Your interpreation of this verse is extreme contorted, as a result of desperately trying to force the round block of the Bible through the square hole of universalism.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Is there such a thing as time in the eternals?

Rev 22:5 And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

That verse talks about light, not time.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Lord Herdsetk is hittin the nails right on the heads. =]

Lord Herdsetk has been awefully quiet as of late. I think that the argument that billions will not go to Hell for being another religion took the wind out of his argument against eternal torment. If only those who are truly evil are damned, I think that is an eternal torment that Lord Herdsetk can morally live with.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Please do not speak for me. I believe that annihilation IS eternal punishment. How could annihilation not be eternal? How is it NOT punishment? Once again, you show that you do NOT understand what I post.

You quibble with secondary definitions. The primary point which you can't deny is that you are an annihilationist. This at fundamental odds with Hillsage's and Tavita's universalism. They categorically reject annihilationism. Your group who opposes belief in eternal torment is a very disconnected group.

As to annihilation being eternal punishment, that is a manipulation of the context. Yes annihilation is eternal, but there can be no punishment in non-existence and that is the very essence of the thrust of your argument. You assert that there is no torment in non-existence. To me torment and punishment are inextricably intertwined. You are happy with a false dichotomy that there can be punishment without torment.

 

[Tavita]

That verse talks about light, not time.

Nitpicking. If it's talking about no more Night, then it follows that having a sun talks of day.

Sun = day + night

 

[Tavita]

Lord Herdsetk has been awefully quiet as of late. I think that the argument that billions will not go to Hell for being another religion took the wind out of his argument against eternal torment. If only those who are truly evil are damned, I think that is an eternal torment that Lord Herdsetk can morally live with.

Maybe he's just gone away for a few days