Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[createdtoworship]

Give me one point that you consider as not being straightforward.

your definition of eternal, is not straight forward at all. It's only for your particular viewpoint. But eternal can mean temporary or not temporary and this is fact.

 

[createdtoworship]

The idea of punishing a finite sin with eternal torture is madness, and I can't imagine loving a God who did that.

that's convenient, I hope you are correct. There is a lot at stake.

 

[Hillsage]

your definition of eternal, is not straight forward at all. It's only for your particular viewpoint. But eternal can mean temporary or not temporary and this is fact.

Once again, your defense...or lack thereof...brings more credence to our side than yours. Thank you for sharing that weakness with us.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I found all that unconvincing in light of the other references to eternal punishment, such as this one:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
​

So what is eternal punishment? Annihilation is not eternal punishment. You can't be punished after you cease to exist.

Death is not eternal punishment because you can't be punished even more after you die...Says you, or says God?

Basically, you're saying death is not a good enough punishment. However the wages of sin is death, which is a punishment.

 

[createdtoworship]

Once again, your defense...or lack thereof...brings more credence to our side than yours. Thank you for sharing that weakness with us.

take away all your prejudice and just simply Read jude, if angels are in hell then hell has to be eternal. Besides it mentions forever many times there in that passage.

# "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
# These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

 

[Hillsage]

take away all your prejudice and just simply Read jude, if angels are in hell then hell has to be eternal.

If the sky is blue God has to have blue eyes. That statement has as much authority as yours

Besides it mentions forever many times there in that passage.

No, you're wrong for the second time in this post. Only the translations of lying scribes mentions "forever" Grady. When are you going to realize that you repeating a falsehood over and over doesn't make it true. That is the mantra of the church, but it only works on....unfortunately...most. Truth only comes from reading more translations, not just your favorite one.

# "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

In better Tranlslations you see the truth.
[YLT] JUD 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before - an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

For the lurkers sake let me say this. Does anyone here actually think that the eternal fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning Sodom and Gomorrah? Or did they only last for an 'age' or period of time? Also notice what's AFTER the "fire age-during" statement...."Justice suffering". Do you know that those fires served justice sake and then they went out. Now, as bad as that justice/judgment was...guess what scripture says, even in the miss-translations?

MAT 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

WHAT!!! You mean the "eternal fires" that Grady believes in not only went out, but this says on the day of judgment that Sodom and Gomorrha is going to get a better judgment than the cities and land of Israel. Now something doesn't line up here if you want to believe orthodoxy and Grady.

# These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

[YLT] JUD 1:13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.
Same song second verse Grady. Once again you come up short with the myopic sight of carnal minded doctrines that are contrary to the God of LOVE.

 

[Hillsage]

Death is not eternal punishment because you can't be punished even more after you die...Says you, or says God?

Basically, you're saying death is not a good enough punishment. However the wages of sin is death, which is a punishment.

And, as was pointed out earlier, when one realizes the difference between a noun and a verb they will realize that punishment as a noun has a finality to it whereas punishing as a verb describes the process leading up to that finality. Eternal punishment/death isn't even what they believe in. They believe in eternal punishing/dying.

Their doctrinal error lies heavily upon the original twisting of the definitions of aion and aionios. A twisting which goes back to Augustine's decree that aionios meant eternal. And anyone disagreeing was judged as a heretic...except for Origin that is. But that's another history lesson 'they' don't know about.

Augustine wasn't even a Greek Scholar, he was a Latin Scholar. Maybe that's why, when he was on his deathbed with his friends gathered around, and after he breathed his last breath...his eyes suddenly popped open, he sat up and said "All that I have written is but straw." And then he collapsed and 'died again'. Too bad he couldn't stick around longer and be more specific. Now if he'd said "All I have written is asbestos."..then maybe he understood eternal fires right and we're wrong...but he didn't.

 

[createdtoworship]

If the sky is blue God has to have blue eyes. That statement has as much authority as yours

No, you're wrong for the second time in this post. Only the translations of lying scribes mentions "forever" Grady. When are you going to realize that you repeating a falsehood over and over doesn't make it true. That is the mantra of the church, but it only works on....unfortunately...most. Truth only comes from reading more translations, not just your favorite one.

In better Tranlslations you see the truth.
[YLT] JUD 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before - an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering.

For the lurkers sake let me say this. Does anyone here actually think that the eternal fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are still burning Sodom and Gomorrah? Or did they only last for an 'age' or period of time? Also notice what's AFTER the "fire age-during" statement...."Justice suffering". Do you know that those fires served justice sake and then they went out. Now, as bad as that justice/judgment was...guess what scripture says, even in the miss-translations?

MAT 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

WHAT!!! You mean the "eternal fires" that Grady believes in not only went out, but this says on the day of judgment that Sodom and Gomorrha is going to get a better judgment than the cities and land of Israel. Now something doesn't line up here if you want to believe orthodoxy and Grady.


[YLT] JUD 1:13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.
Same song second verse Grady. Once again you come up short with the myopic sight of carnal minded doctrines that are contrary to the God of LOVE.

look at all the explaining away you did just to ignore the truth. The plain sense of the word. I did this for years and it doesn't help any believe me. Just repent and believe the truth of eternal fires. It was an example of fire not of eternal with sodom and gomorrah. Easy, if you would simply see it. But you don't want to see it. Youngs would turn over in His grave if He knew what you were using His translation for. Seriously. It's all those websites that you glean over to find truth. But the Bible is not that complex, it's so simple a child could understand. And yes that means hell too. Hell is a life time prison sentence. For as long as a soul endures in Hell. Which is forever. The bible says this all over the place. The Greek phrase aionas ton aionon, which is translated "forever and ever," occurs 18 times in the Greek New Testament. In 17 of them, the phrase means without end, extending into infinity. In Rev. 19:3, the phrase is used to describe the destruction of the great harlot of Babylon (Rev. 17:1,4) whose smoke ascends forever and ever. It too is eternal and it signifies the beginning of the eternal judgment that comes upon her.

Also worth examining is Rev. 14:11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The Greek in Rev. 14:11 is only slightly different. In the table above, "forever and ever" is translated from the Greek, aionas ton aionon, which is literally "ages of the of ages." In Rev. 14:11, the Greek is aionas aionon which is literally, "ages of ages." In the latter, the single Greek word "of the" is missing. But it is not necessary and does not change the meaning of the text. Therefore, the scripture teaches the smoke of their torment goes up forever, without end.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Since the Bible says this all over the place.......let's go back to Genesis then. Should be all over the place, right?

Okay.........where does it mention eternal hell fire? This is perhaps the most important book as it mentions the fate of man after the Fall and why we no longer have a close relationship with God.

What about the rest of the Torah though?
What about Exodus?
What about Leviticus?
What about Numbers?
What about Deuteronomy?

Ultimately, it goes back to my question of "Why wasn't this mentioned in the Garden of Eden?"

This has turned so much into a circular argument. I quote this verse, you quote that verse, twist twist twist.

Instead, let me ask this. If God's message is so simple a child could understand it, could a child truly understand what it means to burn for eternity in hell? A child can understand what its like to burn for a while, maybe even that hell is a bad place....but can a child truly understand that that person will never, ever be relieved? That that person will be filled with torment and bitterness and hatred towards God and angst and physical pain for long as 'and ever' shall be? That's sickening if you really sit down and think about it. Most adults don't seem to grasp this, let alone children. If you truly are worried about people burning in hell, why are you telling us about this? Christians who don't believe in an eternal hellfire seem to be the minority, least in the States. We have accepted Christ as our savior though, so we're good. God can straighten us out later if we're wrong. If we're wrong, billions upon billions of people are burning or awaiting to be burned with no hope in sight. It would be better for them to have never been created, to never have been a thought even, than for them to meet this end (so to speak). Their existence, in short, was futile, bleak, and pointless.

I'm scared that Christianity is moving, or has already moved, to cult status because of this. A lot of churches are raising their members to condemn those not involved in their church, yet reach out and gain new members. How is this love? We're told to fear and love the lord, but we shouldn't fear God so much that we're scared to even screw up once lest he strike us down in righteous judgement. It slowly but surely pervades our minds to be robotic in following a list of commandments, saying some holy prayers verbatim, shaking the hands of the right people, and ,essentially, killing us of any joy in this life. I'm not saying we should all live like there's no tomorrow by getting wasted, or spending all of our earnings on something stupid, or having a one night stand. I'm just saying that we seem to be forgetting this is the same God who is slow to anger, and is full of mercy and love as much as he is just and willing to act out that justice on the wicked. While I think the Bible is God inspired, we have to understand that these are humans writing it. They're full of their own emotions, and thoughts, and opinions. Its a recording of those things.

I've said several times before, I'm still growing in my faith. I have a long ways to go, and part of that process is me questioning the Bible and seeing if it proves true. So far, hell as we've defined it is losing its very roots. Why is hell good? God made all creation, the heavens and the earth, and said that it was good.
God said to let us reason with Him.

In part, I reason with you guys as you all should be my family in Christ. I'm frustrated and angry and fed up with some of the things you say, but you are my family.

 

[createdtoworship]

That's sickening if you really sit down and think about it.

that s the Bible your sick of, and God.
On the other hand there are a lot that a child can't understand in the scriptures, what about prophecy and end times. There are a lot of books that don't have prophecy or end times does that mean the books are incomplete or that prophecy is incomplete? Your reasoning is faulty. Hell is good because it is pure. God created hell for his angels that had fallen so it has to be eternal. We go there by default. But it's in the Bible and you pretty much have to throw your Bible in the trash not to see it.

 

[wayseer]

Good post LH.

Why is hell good? God made all creation, the heavens and the earth, and said that it was good.

Exactly - and he made humanity in his image - therefore humanity is likewise 'good'.

To promote hell and evil is nothing less than idolatry.

 

[Hillsage]

Just repent and believe the truth of eternal fires. It was an example of fire not of eternal with sodom and gomorrah.

You don't even know what you believe Grady. You just said the opposite in post 605. So maybe all this "needed repenting" you are talking about is from the Holy Spirit trying to get through to YOU???

post 605 # "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).

I disagree with you in both posts of course, but I do agree with PLAINLY reading the scripture below...even in YOUR translation....and I find the
same fire same brimstone...you want us to believe in. But it's not eternal just like you said in post 608.

LUK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Like I said, same FIRE, same BRIMSTONE as Revelation. But do you know what you don't know about brimstone? Well let me share then. This is something I learned AFTER I repented about God being a sadistic torturer. Brimstone is sulfur. Did you know what sulfur is considered elemental to LIFE? It is a purgative and a preservative. It healed wounds in Jesus time, and it preserves things from rotting, like the sulfur in dried apricots (read a package).

And, "According to the Ebers Papyrus, a sulfur ointment was used in ancient Egypt to treat granular eyelids. Sulfur was used for fumigation in preclassical Greece;

Pliny the Elder discusses sulfur in book 35 of his Natural History,... mentions its use for fumigation, medicine, and bleaching cloth"

"BLEACHING CLOTH"!!!...you mean like in making things "whiter than snow".

Now YOU SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE FROM ANYWHERE that sulfur is agent of torture.

Youngs would turn over in His grave if He knew what you were using His translation for.

Unsubstantiated opinion, so use Rotherham's or the Concordant Literal translation...they all say the same thing...because they're staying true to the Greek and not false theology.

Seriously. It's all those websites that you glean over to find truth. But the Bible is not that complex, it's so simple a child could understand.

Maybe you've just diagnosed the problem concerning this issue. This is the 'theology' forum and we can't bring it down to the level for a child to understand...but only to the level that a child can have faith for.

Hell is a life time prison sentence.

YOU GOT IT read what you just said again....A LIFE TIME. That's what we've been trying to get you to understand. ETERNAL DEATH isn't either. It isn't death and it isn't a LIFE TIME. Now, don't let your head talk you out of what came from the Spirit to you. God really wants you to know the truth Grady. That has to be why you're here.

The Greek in Rev. 14:11

I already dealt with Rev 14:11 in post 585 and 599. But then, you never answered 591 either.

 

[createdtoworship]

You don't even know what you believe Grady. You just said the opposite in post 605. So maybe all this "needed repenting" you are talking about is from the Holy Spirit trying to get through to YOU???
I disagree with you in both posts of course, but I do agree with PLAINLY reading the scripture below...even in YOUR translation....and I find the
same fire same brimstone...you want us to believe in. But it's not eternal just like you said in post 608.

LUK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Like I said, same FIRE, same BRIMSTONE as Revelation. But do you know what you don't know about brimstone? Well let me share then. This is something I learned AFTER I repented about God being a sadistic torturer. Brimstone is sulfur. Did you know what sulfur is considered elemental to LIFE? It is a purgative and a preservative. It healed wounds in Jesus time, and it preserves things from rotting, like the sulfur in dried apricots (read a package).

And, "According to the Ebers Papyrus, a sulfur ointment was used in ancient Egypt to treat granular eyelids. Sulfur was used for fumigation in preclassical Greece;

Pliny the Elder discusses sulfur in book 35 of his Natural History,... mentions its use for fumigation, medicine, and bleaching cloth"

"BLEACHING CLOTH"!!!...you mean like in making things "whiter than snow".

Now YOU SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE FROM ANYWHERE that sulfur is agent of torture.

Unsubstantiated opinion, so use Rotherham's or the Concordant Literal translation...they all say the same thing...because they're staying true to the Greek and not false theology.
Maybe you've just diagnosed the problem concerning this issue. This is the 'theology' forum and we can't bring it down to the level for a child to understand...but only to the level that a child can have faith for.

YOU GOT IT read what you just said again....A LIFE TIME. That's what we've been trying to get you to understand. ETERNAL DEATH isn't either. It isn't death and it isn't a LIFE TIME. Now, don't let your head talk you out of what came from the Spirit to you. God really wants you to know the truth Grady. That has to be why you're here.

I already dealt with Rev 14:11 in post 585 and 599. But then, you never answered 591 either.

so now all fire and brimstone is temporary huh? You need to repent. (Must have struck a chord with telling you to repent? Thats good at least. But you know what you do? You take your preconceived notion. And with this notion you take all the translations (pick which ones are okay WITH your preconceived notion) and use that one. . And then get all in a hiffy when I can't answer back, Other than just tilling you to repent. But I used to do the exact same thing with ultra dispensationalism, until I repented. So now it's your turn. You can't pick one translation for one thing and another for another thing. The cults do this to justify all sorts of non orthodoxy. Best thing is stick to a valid translation and go with it. I recommend KJV or NKJV. Youngs is okay for me, but you seem to get stuck on His interpretation of eternity too much. I would lay off youngs or rotherhams for awhile. seriously this is for your own spiritual health. Maybe pick a third Bible that you like instead (since you have only found two that agree with your preconceived notions)

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

KJV is not the first translation, nor the most accurate. Its simply the first English translation.

Some of the translating in the KJV is actually pretty funny. I believe in one of the Psalms where its prophesying in a way to Jesus, King David mentions a type of oxen. In the KJV, instead of saying the name of oxen, it says unicorn. Were there really unicorns in the old testament times?

As mentioned before though, the KJV translates Sheol, Gehenna, and Hades as just Hell several times.

 

[theWaris1]

KJV is not the first translation, nor the most accurate. Its simply the first English translation.

That's not correct. KJV is the first English translation authorized by King of England. The Geneva bible preceded the KJV by 51 years and was preferred by many including
Shakespear, Cromwell, Knox & Bunyun.

 

[Hillsage]

so now all fire and brimstone is temporary huh?

Always was Grady, always was. You are the one who can't decide based upon your last post...you do remember your contradiction don't you? And now you are saying you just figured that out I've been consistent all along??? What are you doing here?

You need to repent. (Must have struck a chord with telling you to repent?

Sure did. It was the chord of immaturity and I apologize for it. I know you are really just hurt from my posting your blatant disagreement with yourself in the last post, and like my old pastor used to say; "Hurt people, hurt people." But I forgive you.

You take your preconceived notion. And with this notion you take all the translations (pick which ones are okay WITH your preconceived notion) and use that one.

You mean...like you've been doing? Isn't that a bit like the kettle calling the pot black!

And then get all in a hiffy when I can't answer back,

Not because you can't answer back, but won't answer back. Wait a minute, you were right...maybe the Holy Spirit was speaking to your heart again you "CAN'T ANSWER BACK". Maybe it's because you're wrong just like you were about ultra dispensationalism.

You can't pick one translation for one thing and another for another thing.

I haven't Grady. You sound like you don't pay any attention at all to what is said here?

I recommend KJV or NKJV.

That's because you don't know much about translations either. Did you know that King James required the translators to not say anything that might contradict orthodox theology. And they also added a verse that's not in any other translation out there. Bet you can't tell me what it is. I'll just add that to all the other questions you "can't answer".

Maybe pick a third Bible that you like instead (since you have only found two that agree with your preconceived notions)

It was bad enough that your English and theology skills were lacking, now I have to add math to the list too. I have quoted multiple times 1 Young's, 2 Rotherhams and 3 Concordant Literal Translation. So if my math is also better than your English and theology skills that makes THREE. Oh, and I just checked my last post where the Concordant was just mentioned again...so should I add 'reading' or 'comprehension' to your list also? And the reason YLT is used primarily by me is because it is included in my bible software program along with KJV, RSV, NAS, NIV. So it's just easier to cut and paste it.

So can you now dispense with all the petty stuff you just posted, since I've also proven I can win at that level too. But it is sad for me to admit that I have stooped to that level of rhetoric. I promise I'm going to try and do better...it would be more Christian, don't you think?

 

[Hillsage]

That's not correct. KJV is the first English translation authorized by King of England.

It's also the one keyed to Strong's Concordance and that's why I use it a lot in bible study. It's easier to find the inconsistent translating of those who are protecting their doctrinal box. Admittedly they do so under the illusion that 'they' have the truth and therefore need to protect all those people out there whose skills are lacking. I suspect that the "false pen of the scribes" of old thought the same way when they interpreted the scriptures "into a lie". Some things just never change.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

That's not correct. KJV is the first English translation authorized by King of England. The Geneva bible preceded the KJV by 51 years and was preferred by many including
Shakespear, Cromwell, Knox & Bunyun.

You learn something new every day. Didn't know that, thanks for the info

 

[createdtoworship]

Maybe it's because you're wrong just like you were about ultra dispensationalism.

That's because you don't know much about translations either. Did you know that King James required the translators to not say anything that might contradict orthodox theology. And they also added a verse that's not in any other translation out there. Bet you can't tell me what it is. I'll just add that to all the other questions you "can't answer".

oh I didn't know that you used concordant, I honestly stopped reading your arguments. Which is okay they are for everyone. But I am definitely not wrong here. It's good that the KJV had an error correcting code in there department. You should too.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

.