Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[LutheranMafia]

I know this has been brought up a number of times before, but I can't remember, and can't imagine, what the possible counter point was.

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 14:11
​

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Hmm, well that sounds like its after Jesus comes back the first time. If we take this as it says, then those who receive the mark or worship the beast will burn forever.

Again though, that would have to be after the first coming of Jesus.

Of course, this could be that prophetic and symbolic language that's used quite often in the Bible. If you look at the verses right before Revelations 14:11, it mentions

"14:6 I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people.

14:7 He said with a loud voice, "Fear the Lord, and give him glory; for the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and the springs of waters!"

14:8 Another, a second angel, followed, saying, "Babylon the great has fallen, which has made all the nations to drink of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality."

14:9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or on his hand,

14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

So will people following the beast be drinking the wine of the wrath of God literally? Will he have a booth set up for those who wish not to follow him to pour them a glass of hate?

 

[LutheranMafia]

You're saying that the statement about eternal torment is symbolic? Symbolic of what? How could that possibly be symbolism? That is like claiming that eternal salvation is actually symbolic and not real.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you are accepting this eternal hellfire as being literal in Revelations, you also have to accept that God will really force those worshiping the beast to drink the wine of his wrath. I'm saying that there is a punishment, but not literally as described.

Keep reading in Revelations 14

14:14 I looked, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud one sitting like a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

14:15 Another angel came out from the temple, crying with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Send forth your sickle, and reap; for the hour to reap has come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe!"

14:16 He who sat on the cloud thrust his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

14:17 Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven. He also had a sharp sickle.

14:18 Another angel came out from the altar, he who has power over fire, and he called with a great voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Send forth your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for the earth's grapes are fully ripe!"

14:19 The angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

14:20 The winepress was trodden outside of the city, and blood came out from the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, as far as one thousand six hundred stadia.

Will God mush up the wicked people into wine? He literally must be bloodthirsty if that is the case. God is making wine out of people's bodies.

I guess I'm kind of find it funny that we're using Revelations, a book full of symbolism and prophetic, to prove what will literally happen to people. That's like taking Daniel's dream of the Statue with different parts made of different materials and saying "Well, it must literally be true!". Revelations is one giant revealing of Jesus and him accomplishing all he will set out to do to John. Its a dream. Its full of symbols.

Basically, of all the books in the Bible we could be using to debate what will literally happen to unbelievers, we're choosing the one full of the most symbolism.

Oh the irony.

 

[Hillsage]

I know this has been brought up a number of times before, but I can't remember, and can't imagine, what the possible counter point was.

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 14:11
​

Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Take this in context. The smoke of their torment going up for ages does not mean they are still in torment. They are in torment until they quit bowing before the beast. The smoke is similar to the light of stars that are still shining on the earth even though the 'fire' went out long ago. Also is this talking about some unending judgment in the hereafter, or is it here and now in your opinion? Is it not your belief that the worship of the beast happens this side of the grave?

Now this next verse takes the same torment and says it only last 5 months and that men want to die and can't.
REV 9:5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months, and their torment {is} as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;
6 and in those days shall men seek the death, and they shall not find it, and they shall desire to die, and the death shall flee from them.

I've been receiving a monthly bible study on the book of revelation for the last 10 years and we are just now in chapter 9 studying the locusts of this very chapter. This is not the forum to even discuss it further though. But briefly the locusts coming up out of the smoke are symbolic of things that need to be dealt with by Christ in our lives by a judgment here and now. All of God's judgments are to bring righteousness.

ISA 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

I hope this helps.

 

[Tavita]

I know this has been brought up a number of times before, but I can't remember, and can't imagine, what the possible counter point was.

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.
Revelation 14:11
​

I suppose you could say one counterpoint would be is that there is no time in the eternals. There wouldn't be a 'day or night'. So I would think the passage has another meaning. We have to remember that the language of Revelation (The Revelation or Unveiling of the Christ within) is highly symbolic and shouldn't be taken literally.

 

[Hillsage]

I guess I'm kind of find it funny that we're using Revelations, a book full of symbolism and prophetic, to prove what will literally happen to people.

The guy teaching the study I mentioned said in the beginning..somewhere..."The dumber a Christians is, the quicker he is to go to Revelation to prove a point." I think he may be right.

Revelations is one giant revealing of Jesus and him accomplishing all he will set out to do to John. Its a dream. Its full of symbols.

That is exactly what he says; It is a revelation of 'the Christ' in the life of a believer and the symbolism of all the spiritual battles and enemies we overcome if we obedient followers of Christ. It's follows a very 'non traditional' interpretation which has truly captivated me. When his lesson comes my wife says "Your birthday present arrived."

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Ugh my grammar is horrible. "I guess I'm kind of find it funny."

Its pretty bad to think that English is my native tongue. I seriously need an interpreter just to get my thoughts out of my head. I'm horrible with speaking and writing.

 

[createdtoworship]

But that's the irony of it. You aren't defending it, you're just doing such a poor job of defending your side that it makes us look good and you don't even know it. And the scripture you use is repeatedly proven to be poorly translated in a purposeful attempt to defend a doctrinal position and not relay the truth as it really is.

And websites/books dedicated to revealing what has been hidden by 'the church' ever since it became a political religious structure also exist. So if you want to compare it with CARM it would certainly be time well spent.

http--www.tentmaker.org-

You can look good in the eyes of the world. But thats not what matters. I looked at your link and it has some interesting points but not as straightforward as carm. You guys tend to beat around the bush with your theology and this is your biggest problem. The straighforward meaning of scripture is my best defense .

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

That's an incredibly dangerous style of reading the scripture.

This is translated from Greek which is translated from Hebrew. It spans two different cultures, minimum. They definitely have different ways of thinking than we do. The Jews tended to rely more on experience and emotions whilst the Greeks (and by extension us in the US), rely more on rationality and theory.

Actually, let me hit the brakes on my point. I have a good question.

Why do you take the straightforward approach when reading the Bible?

 

[Hillsage]

You can look good in the eyes of the world. But thats not what matters. I looked at your link and it has some interesting points but not as straightforward as carm.

Give me one point that you consider as not being straightforward.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I found all that unconvincing in light of the other references to eternal punishment, such as this one:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
​

So what is eternal punishment? Annihilation is not eternal punishment. You can't be punished after you cease to exist.

 

[Timothew]

I've posted this a couple times already in this thread, but I feel like doing it again:

"Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying, any more than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving, or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging, or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming, or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching. The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process. The results or consequences are eternally irrevocable. And of course, it is worthy of mention that the Greek word for “everlasting” and “eternal” in the New Testament are both translated from the exact same word, “aionos”.

Hey LM, the answer to your question has been posted a few times, but here it is again.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you are accepting this eternal hellfire as being literal in Revelations, you also have to accept that God will really force those worshiping the beast to drink the wine of his wrath. I'm saying that there is a punishment, but not literally as described.

Well, when it comes to drinking the wine of the wrath of God it is extremely clear what the analogy is, but in the case of eternal torment, what is that an analogy to? You didn't answer my question, unless there is some possible analogy it cannot be taken as an analogy.

But obviously I erred in choosing the Book of Revelation as a source. It is easy for those who don't really believe in it to explain it away. I'll have to stick with other references to eternal torment in the Bible.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Hey LM, the answer to your question has been posted a few times, but here it is again.

"Everlasting punishment" (Matt. 25:46) is not endless punishing, nor is "everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9) endless destroying

Why is it not endlessly tearing appart of the spirit just as St. Teresa described?

any more than "eternal salvation" (Heb. 5:9) is endless saving

It is endlessly saved. Endlessly having proper repentance for our mistakes. It is an endless process, but only those who are empathic and feel bad for hurting others can endlessly repent for each and every mistake they that they make. If you are empathic it is guaranteed that you will repent endlessly each and every time you hurt someone else.

or "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2) is endless judging

Why not? It is an unending judgment that is perpetual and without end. The judgment is reaffirmed by each new age that encounters it.

or “eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12) is endless redeeming

This is just word play. Eternal redemption means redeption forever, just as it says, just as eternal torment means eternal torment, just as it says.

or “everlasting gospel” (Rev 14:6) is endless preaching.

Uh, it is not endless preaching? It will be preached forever is what it is saying.

The "eternal" pertains to the result, and not to the process.

This litmus test failed in every case but two as far as I can see, and in those two cases to try and put eternal redemption and eternal salvation as not being perpetual redeeming (which it actually is) as a case for no eternal torment is extremely weak, in my opinion.

 

[gort]

But obviously I erred in choosing the Book of Revelation as a source. It is easy for those who don't really believe in it to explain it away. I'll have to stick with other references to eternal torment in the Bible.

I've ususally found that regardless of source, it will be explained away no matter how plainly spelled out, and irrationally so.

 

[LutheranMafia]

As to eternal redemption and eternal salvation (the only examples from above where you might possibly have a case of non-perpetuality), I don't believe that eternal salvation means that one cannot make mistakes for which one must repent. I think it means rather that those who are empathic and care about others will feel remorse once they realize that they have made a mistake and only people who are like this can receive eternal salvation. So in this light it is eternally redeeming, because we will never stop making mistakes for which we will have to repent. Eternal redemption can only come from eternally repenting of one's mistakes. It is a perpetual process of repentance and redemption of one's mistakes that can only come to those who are empathic enough to care about hurting others and are willing to repent. Those who do not feel the pain of others and feel no remorse for their mistakes cannot have eternal salvation because they are not capable of eternally repenting of their mistakes.

 

[LutheranMafia]

But that's the irony of it. You aren't defending it, you're just doing such a poor job of defending your side that it makes us look good and you don't even know it. And the scripture you use is repeatedly proven to be poorly translated in a purposeful attempt to defend a doctrinal position and not relay the truth as it really is.

And websites/books dedicated to revealing what has been hidden by 'the church' ever since it became a political religious structure also exist. So if you want to compare it with CARM it would certainly be time well spent.

http--www.tentmaker.org-

So you believe in Universalism? You think that even Hitler will be saved??

 

[Hillsage]

So you believe in Universalism?

No I don't believe in Universalism, Yes I do believe in Christian Universalism...there is a difference.

You think that even Hitler will be saved??

Since you brought him up, do you believe that the sins of Hitler pale in comparison to the atrocities that orthodoxy believes God will administer to all unbelieving men, women and children? I do, and therefore YES I BELIEVE the simplicity of the following scriptures "REV 15:4 ...for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. and "every knee shall bow tongue/confess to the GLORY of God".

But obviously I erred in choosing the Book of Revelation as a source. It is easy for those who don't really believe in it to explain it away.

My/our dismissal of your Revelation quotes wasn't based upon any disbelief in the book. For you to even post that makes one question your ability to rightly discern. The book matters not, but the principle that aionios is not correctly translated 'eternity'...does matter. Below are your last two quotes from Young's Literal Translation.

YLT REV 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

YLT Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
As you can see...no eternal anything if you just' plainly read' it as it is without the filter of prior indoctrination coming from the pen of lying scribes (again Jer. 8:8). For your scribes, aionios is a word that only gets translated as eternal when it suits the theology. Below is an example of my point.

KJV TIT 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;
"Eternal life" promised before "eternity began". 'OH consistency thou art a jewel to be sought for." Or should I say 'a pearl of great price'...and one of such great value that you must sell out orthodoxy to buy it? Most can't pay that price...yet.

 

[alligatorsky]

The idea of punishing a finite sin with eternal torture is madness, and I can't imagine loving a God who did that.