Lets keep it simple...

[maco]

You left out a few things:

We are no longer under the Law of the Obsolete Covenant.

That Law of Commandments and ordinances was abolished and nailed to the Cross.

No longer are any days "above" others, or more holy than others.

A return to observation of special days, months, seasons, and years is a return to the elemental principles and slavery of the Law from which we have been freed.

We are specifically freed from judgment regarding observance of sabbaths or any other supposedly special days.

There is not one person on these forums that believe we can lie, murder, steal, worship other gods, use God's name in vain and so on without repenting.

Sin was nailed on the cross. The law is not sin.

Romans 14 speaks of doubtful things such as special days for fasting, not the Sabbath.

We don't obey God as a means to be accepted. We obey God because we love him and want to worship him.

The law is holy, just and good. There's no need to get rid of it.

 

[Edial]

Do you believe marriage is done away with since we are now married to Christ?

The Bride of Christ, The Wedding itself will be in Heaven where there will be no male nor female.

Today, although we are a bride of Christ in spirit, we still have flesh as our covering and it is separated into male and female.

 

[maco]

The Bride of Christ, The Wedding itself will be in Heaven where there will be no male nor female.

Today, although we are a bride of Christ in spirit, we still have flesh as our covering and it is separated into male and female.

You can't make the day unholy or unsanctified just because God uses it to help us understand a spiritual truth anymore than you can do away with marraige.

 

[Edial]

You can't make the day unholy or unsanctified just because God uses it to help us understand a spiritual truth anymore than you can do away with marraige.

The same way today's marriage is a shadow of the one to come, so are the Laws and Regulations are the shadow of Christ.

What you are trying to do is squeeze Christ within the Law.

He doesn't fit.

 

[sunlover1]

No, I didn't.

Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.…
​

Do you believe marriage is done away with since we are now married to Christ?

No, and I don't believe Sabbath is "done away with"
But I can't "keep a Sabbath"
I've tried.
God created us for love, not for rule keeping.

 

[maco]

The same way today's marriage is a shadow of the one to come, so are the Laws and Regulations are the shadow of Christ.

What you are trying to do is squeeze Christ within the Law.

He doesn't fit.

Just because God uses created things to help us understand spiritual things does not mean we do away with the created things. If I lust in my heart after my neighbor's wife does that mean I might as well have sex with her? If I rest in Christ does that mean I might as well forget the seventh day or change it to another day?

 

[Edial]

Just because God uses created things to help us understand spiritual things does not mean we do away with the created things. If I lust in my heart after my neighbor's wife does that mean I might as well have sex with her? If I rest in Christ does that mean I might as well forget the seventh day or change it to another day?

Sabbath is Saturday.
Resurrection Day is Sunday.
Even using the calendar from Wednesday we see that, since He rose after the 3 days and nights, He rose After Saturday.

Sabbath is Sabbath.
Resurrection Day is Resurrection Day.

So we have the Old as well as the New.
I am not doing away with the Old.

 

[NorrinRadd]

There is not one person on these forums that believe we can lie, murder, steal, worship other gods, use God's name in vain and so on without repenting.

As a matter of fact, I do believe we (Xians) *can* do those things without "repenting" and still remain saved, but very few *would*. It's my conviction that the only way a saved person can revert to the unsaved state is by willfully and knowingly repudiating faith in Christ.

Jesus summed up the Law of the Obsolete Covenant as "Love the LORD and love your neighbor." (Interestingly, the second part of that compound commandment is not even part of The Ten.)

Under the New Covenant, those translate to "Believe/trust in Jesus as I AM" and "Love one another / Love your neighbor as yourself." ("Love your neighbor as yourself" is the wording used by James; and repeatedly by Paul, who says it fulfills the *entire* law. "Love one another" is the language used by John, by Jesus as quoted by John, and by Paul -- on one occasion as parallel to "Love your neighbor." John implies "Love one another" is the only commandment now operative.) Faith in Jesus secures us in the New Covenant; acting in love is the identity marker of being in that Covenant.

Sin was nailed on the cross. The law is not sin.

Gal. 3 says that the "curse of the Law" was hung on the "tree." In context, the implication is that the necessity of living under law is a curse in contrast to the life of faith, and so the entire lifestyle of law was crucified.

More explicitly, Eph. 2:15-16 says the Law (not "parts of the Law") of commandments and ordinances was abolished by means of the Cross. Col. 2:14 says certificate of debt consisting of decrees (ordinances) was cancelled and nailed to the Cross.

Romans 14 speaks of doubtful things such as special days for fasting, not the Sabbath.

There is no reason to exclude the sabbath unless you start with that idea in mind. Sabbath observance did not become a Commandment until the institution of the Obsolete Covenant of Sinai. Since we are now under a New and better Covenant, there is no reason to automatically assume it is still in effect. Which things, if any, to carry over from the Obsolete Covenant, and how to do it, all fall under the heading of "doubtful things."

We don't obey God as a means to be accepted. We obey God because we love him and want to worship him.

Agreed. And I choose to worship Him and honor Him by enjoying the full extent of the liberty He purchased for me.

The law is holy, just and good. There's no need to get rid of it.

And yet God saw fit to abolish it at the Cross, since it had served its purpose.

 

[SwordFall]

Maintaining the Saturday Sabbath is comparable to circumcision, as defined by the early Church Fathers.
Holds no significance to the blessings of God.

Such is why SDA and the like are wrong- the founders had no recognition of the early church leaders. They went, funny enough, by scripture alone, and still failed to understand the nature of what the Sabbath is even meant to be.

 

[Edial]

Maintaining the Saturday Sabbath is comparable to circumcision, as defined by the early Church Fathers.
Holds no significance to the blessings of God.

Such is why SDA and the like are wrong- the founders had no recognition of the early church leaders. They went, funny enough, by scripture alone, and still failed to understand the nature of what the Sabbath is even meant to be.

I am not losing any sleep if someone wants to keep Saturday as Sabbath.

What I am objecting to is if people say that we should not hold worship on Sunday.

 

[sunlover1]

As a matter of fact, I do believe we (Xians) *can* do those things without "repenting" and still remain saved, but very few *would*. It's my conviction that the only way a saved person can revert to the unsaved state is by willfully and knowingly repudiating faith in Christ..

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient:
all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Maintaining the Saturday Sabbath is comparable to circumcision, as defined by the early Church Fathers.
Holds no significance to the blessings of God.

Such is why SDA and the like are wrong- the founders had no recognition of the early church leaders. They went, funny enough, by scripture alone, and still failed to understand the nature of what the Sabbath is even meant to be.

By design, not all can understand Scripture.
The early church leaders wrote Scripture.
Any after that are only Christan men writing their
opinions from their own P'sOV.

 

[maco]

NorrinRadd; As a matter of fact, I do believe we (Xians) *can* do those things without "repenting" and still remain saved, but very few *would*. It's my conviction that the only way a saved person can revert to the unsaved state is by willfully and knowingly repudiating faith in Christ.

I too believe we can sin even while saved but only in times of weakness, anger or ignorance but not as a way of life without conviction. This goes for the Sabbath as well. As a matter of fact, you won't even have a desire to keep the Sabbath until you're saved.

Jesus summed up the Law of the Obsolete Covenant as "Love the LORD and love your neighbor." (Interestingly, the second part of that compound commandment is not even part of The Ten.)

Loving God and loving neighbor is the spirit or purpose of the Law.

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

The first four define what loving God looks like and the last six defines what loving our neighbor looks like.

Under the New Covenant, those translate to "Believe/trust in Jesus as I AM" and "Love one another / Love your neighbor as yourself." ("Love your neighbor as yourself" is the wording used by James; and repeatedly by Paul, who says it fulfills the *entire* law. "Love one another" is the language used by John, by Jesus as quoted by John, and by Paul -- on one occasion as parallel to "Love your neighbor." John implies "Love one another" is the only commandment now operative.) Faith in Jesus secures us in the New Covenant; acting in love is the identity marker of being in that Covenant.

Can you love your neighbor while you're killing him, stealing from him, coveting his wife and so on?

Gal. 3 says that the "curse of the Law" was hung on the "tree." In context, the implication is that the necessity of living under law is a curse in contrast to the life of faith, and so the entire lifestyle of law was crucified.

The curse of the Law is not the Law itself, it's what the Law reveals in us, SIN. Jesus became sin and was nailed to the cross. He became cursed in our place.

More explicitly, Eph. 2:15-16 says the Law (not "parts of the Law") of commandments and ordinances was abolished by means of the Cross. Col. 2:14 says certificate of debt consisting of decrees (ordinances) was cancelled and nailed to the Cross.

The law that is spoken of in many of the arguments is not the Ten Commandments, but rather, the law pertaining to circumcision.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

There was much debate over circumcision because it was given to include you into the covenant as God's people. The Ten Commandments is part of creation itself, circumcision came later as a result of sin to identify God's covenant people.

There is no reason to exclude the sabbath unless you start with that idea in mind. Sabbath observance did not become a Commandment until the institution of the Obsolete Covenant of Sinai. Since we are now under a New and better Covenant, there is no reason to automatically assume it is still in effect. Which things, if any, to carry over from the Obsolete Covenant, and how to do it, all fall under the heading of "doubtful things."

The Sabbath became a commandment because God's creation of forgetting it. Remember, the Law was added because of transgression. Transgression means they were not doing what they were suppose to. The covenant is obsolete, not the contents of the covenant which are the the Ten Commandments. Adultery is still a sin, as well as, stealing lying, killing worshiping other gods and so on. With holding punishment through grace does not mean the Ten Commandments are done away with. Nor does faith do away with the Ten Commandments. Faith inspires us to obey them through love.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Romans 3:31 Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Hear is a more clearer translation.

Romans 3:31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God’s laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

Agreed. And I choose to worship Him and honor Him by enjoying the full extent of the liberty He purchased for me.

We were given liberty through grace but not to live in sin. Sin is the transgression of the Law.

And yet God saw fit to abolish it at the Cross, since it had served its purpose.

The Law of God is eternal and defines God's will. The cross did not abolish God's definition of love.

The people of God need to understand the battle over truth. Satan has been distorting what God has said from the very beginning. He twists God's word and makes it sound like the opposite of what He really said. He does this through religious systems.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I too believe we can sin even while saved but only in times of weakness, anger or ignorance but not as a way of life without conviction. This goes for the Sabbath as well. As a matter of fact, you won't even have a desire to keep the Sabbath until you're saved.

I have no desire to "keep the sabbath" in terms of observing a special "holy day." I believe a desire to do so is just as likely an unfortunate carnal desire to return to the slavery from which we were redeemed as it is an evidence of salvation.

Loving God and loving neighbor is the spirit or purpose of the Law.

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

The first four define what loving God looks like and the last six defines what loving our neighbor looks like.

Can you love your neighbor while you're killing him, stealing from him, coveting his wife and so on?

I don't have much problem with that in principle. However, I would qualify it by saying that "the first four (Commandments) define what loving God looks like" UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. Whether or not they transfer to the New is a "doubtful matter."

The curse of the Law is not the Law itself, it's what the Law reveals in us, SIN. Jesus became sin and was nailed to the cross. He became cursed in our place.

You are of course welcome to your opinion. I happen to find Gordon Fee's conclusion based on the context of Galatians persuasive.

The law that is spoken of in many of the arguments is not the Ten Commandments, but rather, the law pertaining to circumcision.

That does not account for the wording which explicitly says the law of "commandments and ordinances" was abolished.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

There was much debate over circumcision because it was given to include you into the covenant as God's people.

There was much debate because legalistic judaizers were attempting to impose a major identity marker (circumcision) of an Obsolete Covenant on members of a New and better Covenant to whom it did not apply. For Xians -- those who partake in that New and better Covenant -- the identity markers are the indwelling presence of the Spirit (which equals circumcision of the heart) and the outward evidence of a lifestyle of love.

The Ten Commandments is part of creation itself,

Chapter and verse?

circumcision came later as a result of sin to identify God's covenant people.

Chapter and verse showing it came "as a result of sin"?

The Sabbath became a commandment because God's creation of forgetting it.

Chapter and verse?

Remember, the Law was added because of transgression. Transgression means they were not doing what they were suppose to.

Chapter and verse showing it was added because of the transgression of sabbath-breaking?

The covenant is obsolete, not the contents of the covenant which are the the Ten Commandments.

The Covenant and its stipulations are inseparable.

Adultery is still a sin, as well as, stealing lying, killing worshiping other gods and so on.

Right. Faith in I AM and "Love your neighbor" were explicitly reaffirmed.

With holding punishment through grace does not mean the Ten Commandments are done away with.

No. But abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances does -- if words have any meaning.

Nor does faith do away with the Ten Commandments. Faith inspires us to obey them through love.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Romans 3:31 Do we then cancel the law through faith? Absolutely not! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Hear is a more clearer translation.

Romans 3:31 Well then, if we are saved by faith, does this mean that we no longer need obey God’s laws? Just the opposite! In fact, only when we trust Jesus can we truly obey him.

Genuine faith inspires us to keep the One Commandment of the New Covenant -- Love one another.

We were given liberty through grace but not to live in sin. Sin is the transgression of the Law.

The Law of God is eternal and defines God's will. The cross did not abolish God's definition of love.

We were given liberty to obey the One Law of Love, and to be free from all the other minutiae and rituals of the Law of the Obsolete Covenant -- the rules of which are powerless against fleshly indulgence, and in fact often serve to *instigate* sin.

The people of God need to understand the battle over truth. Satan has been distorting what God has said from the very beginning. He twists God's word and makes it sound like the opposite of what He really said. He does this through religious systems.

Oh no! Da debbil! Boogity boogity! Personally, I think one of his best tools is the carnal "religious system" of legalism.

 

[maco]

No. But abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances does -- if words have any meaning.

The death of Jesus did away with the whole sacrificial system. There were many rules given as to the ordinances. Ephesians 2:15 should read, commandments contained in ordinances. Hebrews 9:9-10 speaks of these ordinances and they are not the Ten Commandments.

Hebrews 9:9-10 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

It's still a sin to commit adultery, lie, steal, kill and so on and the seventh day is still a blessed and sanctified day. The death of Jesus didn't change God's blessing.

You can't love God without understanding His definition of love.

 

[Edial]

So what have we learned so far:

1. Nowhere does the Bible say Sunday is the Lord's day.
2. Nowhere does the Bible say the early church gathered on Sunday.
3. Nowhere does the Bible say that the seventh day Sabbath was changed to the
first day.
4. Jesus gathered every Sabbath for sacred assembly.
5. Paul gathered every Sabbath for sacred assembly.
6. The early church gather every Sabbath for sacred assembly.
7. The seventh day was blessed and sanctified as part of creation itself.
8. God protected the seventh day with His Law.
9. The seventh day Sabbath is for all mankind, as well as, the animals.
10. The change to the seventh day Sabbath, from the seventh day to the first day,
came long after Jesus and the Apostles and is not supported by Scripture.
11. The Beast of Daniel and Revelation is the influencing force behind the change to
God's times and God's Law.
12. Those who love God and keep His commandments will be persecuted by the
dragon.
13. Jesus Himself said that He is Lord of the Sabbath making the Sabbath the Lord's
day.
14. We still have a seven day week with the seventh day created as a blessed and
holy day.

So I ask you, what is really keeping you for honoring the seventh day as the Lord's day? It's not the Bible. It's not Jesus. It's not the New Covenant. What could it be? Maybe fear of persecution and excommunication? Maybe you're not willing to make such a life style change? Maybe pride is keeping you from acknowledging that you were wrong? What could it be?

Because Sunday is the Resurrection day.

You were shown that after 3 days and 3 nights Christ rose - Sunday.

You were ALSO shown that sabbadon Gk. has 2 meanings - sabbath and week.

It may be translated as 1st of the week or 1st Sabbath (Saturday).

Since we know Christ rose on Sunday it is to be translated as 1st of the week.
Hence, 1st of the week means 1st day of the week - Sunday.

So every major translation of the world from the Koine Greek into their own language is correct and you are not.

What are your qualifications as a Koine scholar?

 

[Edial]

Show me one Bible verse that says Sunday is the Lord's day?

There must be many verses that say Sunday is the Lord's day since just about the entire Christian community, who get their beliefs from the Bible, say Sunday is the Lord's day.

I'll be waiting...

Because Sunday is the Resurrection day.

You were shown that after 3 days and 3 nights Christ rose - Sunday.

You were ALSO shown that sabbaton Gk. has 2 meanings - Sabbath and week.
You are consistently IGNORING the part that sabbaton means "week" as well.

Sabbaton may be translated as 1st of the week or 1st Sabbath (Saturday).
So which is it?

Since we know (see above) Christ rose on Sunday it MUST be translated as 1st of the week. Hence, 1st of the week means 1st day of the week - Sunday.

Every major translation of the world from the Koine Greek into their own language is correct and you are not.

What are your qualifications as a Koine scholar?

 

[maco]

Because Sunday is the Resurrection day.

You were shown that after 3 days and 3 nights Christ rose - Sunday.

You were ALSO shown that sabbaton Gk. has 2 meanings - Sabbath and week.
You are consistently IGNORING the part that sabbaton means "week" as well.

Sabbaton may be translated as 1st of the week or 1st Sabbath (Saturday).
So which is it?

Since we know (see above) Christ rose on Sunday it MUST be translated as 1st of the week. Hence, 1st of the week means 1st day of the week - Sunday.

Every major translation of the world from the Koine Greek into their own language is correct and you are not.

What are your qualifications as a Koine scholar?

If you use God's timeline then Jesus resurrected on Sabbath morning. His resurrection was moved to Sunday to support the pagan practice of Easter. In the same way Sabbath was changed to Sunday to support the Venerable Day of the Sun the same way Jesus' birth was moved to December 25th. It's all about sun worship.

 

[Albion]

If you use God's timeline then Jesus resurrected on Sabbath morning. His resurrection was moved to Sunday to support the pagan practice of Easter. In the same way Sabbath was changed to Sunday to support the Venerable Day of the Sun the same way Jesus' birth was moved to December 25th. It's all about sun worship.

No, but you have a healthy imagination.

 

[sunlover1]

Waiting for StandingUP's commentary

 

[Edial]

If you use God's timeline then Jesus resurrected on Sabbath morning. His resurrection was moved to Sunday to support the pagan practice of Easter. In the same way Sabbath was changed to Sunday to support the Venerable Day of the Sun the same way Jesus' birth was moved to December 25th. It's all about sun worship.

After 3 day/nights from Wednesday PM is Sunday according to the timeline you gave.
Day 1 - Wednesday night/Thursday night
Day 2 - Thursday night/Friday night
Day 3 - Friday night/Saturday night

MK 8:31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, ...

Christ rose after Saturday.
And when women showed up Sunday morning they were told he has risen.
What time was Christ risen exactly? We do not know.
But we know it was after Saturday.

EVERY major translator of the world disagrees with you.

Sabbaton may mean Sabbath (Saturday) or Week.
If it says first sabbaton it does not necessarily mean Saturday. It may ALSO mean first of the Week.
You are constantly ignoring that part.

Enough improvising. Please.