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Lets face it...
- Thread starter Inkfingers
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I did not take a position of disbelief.
Taking a position of disbelief means disbelieving, correct? So what do you disbelieve?
What is a robust and falsifiable definition?
P.S. When is your birthday? I'm going to send you some poutine laced with hemlock.
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Another way of explaining it is to compare a belief in God to a Jury decision. Imagine if there is a charge of "God Exists".
A jury does not find "Guilty" or "Innocent" - This is what you think Davian's position should be.
A jury finds "Guilty" or "Not Guilty". - This is Davian's position, and most atheists position I think. We find "Not Guilty", not "Innocent".
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Davian
fallible
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You: "I have no belief due to complete lack of information."
That is the same position I have taken with your particular deity.
I cannot list everything.
In regards to your particular deity? You have yet to provide that information. Am I to guess?
Based on all of the responses that I have received from requesting that, it may be best referred to as a snipe hunt.
Soon. Watch for the number to change.
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Holding no belief, and holding a position of disbelief are different. But if you're trying to say you have no belief, then why did you above say the atheists are right, and why always arguing the atheist position, and always mocking theism?
I cannot list everything.
In regards to your particular deity? You have yet to provide that information. Am I to guess?
No need to guess; I display a Christian icon, and if you have no conception of the Christian God, as I told you before, you should probably read more. Especially about something you want to argue about on a Christian site.
Or just keep playing dumb if you find that more entertaining.
Based on all of the responses that I have received from requesting that, it may be best referred to as a snipe hunt.
Well if you can't give me a definition of what you're asking for, how can I give it to you?
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I'm assuming you realize that there are many different descriptions of the "Christian God" by those claiming to be "Christian", yes ? Even amongst certain sects and denominational positions, thus saying, "Methodist" or "Catholic" or "Orthodox" may not actually describe a whole lot. This almost always puzzles me ... it seems that when many Christians (perhaps Westernized mostly, idk) say "God" or "Bible" or "truth" or even "Jesus" it's as though it's expected for the other person to know exactly what they're talking about and referencing. I remember talking with one once who kept referencing Jesus and Christianity and how he was a Christian, etc ... and I was totally caught off guard when he started talking about Jesus living in Scotland, having a family, coming over to the US and founding a colony or some such. When I questioned him further on it, he treated me like I was an idiot for not already knowing all of his theories and the obviousness of the truths, as though I knew better and was just playing dumb and being coy. It seems a common response, I can't figure out why totally.
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Well, not really. The core shared Christian beliefs are in the Nicene Creed, which can be conveniently found in the CF rules. An expanded description of shared Christian beliefs can be found in Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.
No, I'm pretty sure "Jesus living in Scotland" is not a common response.
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For purposes of this conversation I could have just said God is a being who created the universe and other beings like humans. Davian knows that, everybody knows that, he just likes to be difficult, and likes always questioning, questioning, questioning, while evading answering questions put to himself.
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This is an example of what I was saying: it's common amongst believer to treat their view as though it is the common one, and others as though they should "know this". Some of us do not take for granted the stance of another and make conclusions based on assumptions, we like to hear from them in their own words what they claim to believe to be true. For whatever reason, it seems common amongst Christians (again maybe it's Westernized ones, idk) that when they say "God" or "Christian" that there is some common knowledge the other person in the conversation should already know, etc. When in reality, there are enough differences as to make one person claiming to be "Christian" be essentially unrecognizable to another who is using the same term "Christian" in regards to themselves. Some of us do not take for granted where another person stands, we qualify. This is also how one learns about an individual, they ask their thoughts on things.
I'm speaking for myself here, but I know I am also speaking for others in a sense because I have friends who have agreed with me on this: to some of us our perspective is that there seems to be as many definitions of "God" as there are individuals claiming to believe in "God". To a group of 100 believers they may think they have a unified belief. Okay. But to some of us, we see a group of 100 individuals with their own ideas that may be radically different from each other when dissected.
Do you believe Jesus lived in Scotland ? Or that "God" was once a mortal man with a wife ? Or that Jesus was actually an alien from the Pleiades ? Or that Jesus was just a man who lived and died but you still call yourself a "Christian" because you agree with his moral teachings and that ultimately "God" is not Yahweh or Elohim or any other being in the scriptures ? See ? There are many different varieties of those who use the term "Christian" in regards to themselves. Is Enoch scripture and canon for you ? Is the original Ark sitting in Axum, Ethiopia ? Is Paul a false apostle ? Does everyone who posts in the "Orthodox" section on this site agree with the Nicene Creed eve ? On and on.
I didn't mean to say that Jesus living in Scotland was a common response ... I was implying that the way he responded to me as though I should have known exactly how common his view was and what he was talking about without asking, was a common response. That response he gave me as though "Everybody knows what I'm talking about is true and what Christianity is, don't play dumb," SEEMS to be a common response from many believers. These responses of yours and Chesterton's are cases in point imo.
A lot of assumptions. I'm not going to speak for him or anyone else, but I would ask you the same questions and it wouldn't be because I was trying to be difficult. If you say, "Bible," I'll ask which one. In the definition you gave of God just now, for example ... it's still vague. Would a mortal extraterrestrial creating humans at some distant point in the past and seeding the earth with them count ? See, it's too vague imo. And not because I'd be difficult. Speaking for myself.
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To the bolded ... a case in point. "Everybody knows that." I know some people who believed that angels created human beings, not "God", and they still called themselves Christians. If possible, it may be helpful to keep in mind that not everyone considers information the same ways. Some of us are not content with assumptions on certain things, and basing interactions with other people on assumptions. Perhaps you are more comfortable with basing judgements of others off your assumptions, but not everyone attempts to understand things the same way in the same areas. When it comes to religious or spiritual concepts ... I find it's best to not assume. Same as dating. **cough cough**
And when I responded to him as though what he was saying wasn't that common, HE laughed at me and treated me like I was an uneducated idiot. One man's norm is another man's absurdity.Yeah, that's a new one on me.
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No, a mortal being would not count.
What's interesting on second thought though, is that the assumption I make is that people being critical of an idea understand at least the basic idea. I could be wrong. I know of lot of atheist types on CF are very knowledgable about Christianity, but I guess I can't assume that about every one of them. What I take as being difficult may in fact sometimes just be innocent ignorance.
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The Nicene Creed has summarised core shared Christian beliefs for almost 1700 years. All the main Christian denominations accept it. And, like I said, it's conveniently in the CF rules. On CF, the "Christian" cross icon which I use means "accepting the Nicene Creed."
No, and I'm not aware of any Christians who do. Those last two are certainly completely incompatible with historical Christianity.
The rules say that they should.
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I'll grant you that there are lots of people who call themselves Christian and believe things which Christianity never taught, including things which even contradict what Christianity has always taught. And that could be confusing.
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Ignorance in a neutral sense. For any number of reasons. Lack of exposure, circumstance, etc. And again ... some of us do not base our perceptions of others off of assumptions.
When I was a young child ... I was allowed to explore pretty much anything spiritually or religious affiliated I wished. My mother couldn't stand religion of any kind, or anyone telling her what to believe, though being from the US South, she did have some basic ideas and beliefs (what I call "cultural osmosis" concepts lol) that were Bible Belt slanted. My father was an atheist/agnostic variety (he would claim one or the other off and on, depending on the year) but had a large library devoted to a variety of topics. Everything from Edgar Cayce, to Stichen, to the Happy Hooker, to Sun Tzu. I was allowed to read certain books at a young age, and ask questions ... and I had a diverse group of friends, everything from Santeria, to Hindu, to Islam, to Judaism, to Lutherans, Catholics, etc. I was allowed to ask questions, explore, etc. And I, on my own accord, would be asked to taken to a church down the road because I wanted to know and learn, (one of the reasons). It was a small Baptist church. I would even go by myself, ride my bike there, etc. And as I got older, many of my friends went to this one mega church (also a Baptist church) ... girls I dated went there, so I would sometimes go to functions with them.
In all my exploring, I never ONE TIME visited any Charismatic or Pentecostal type of environment, nor Eastern/Russian/Greek Orthodox environment. I didn't even know they existed. The very first time I ever encountered one, was when I was about 24 years old. I remember reading the Sign and the Seal (which deals with the Ethiopian Orthodox IIRC), but otherwise that was it in terms of "Orthodox". I had already lived over seas, been to maybe 20 countries or so ? Been to almost every state in the US, lived in a wide variety of situations ... but never one time had I ever encountered either one. If I had, I wasn't paying attention or aware of it in other words. I could have been standing next to an Orthodox church and simply not thought about it. Or I could have been flipping channels and come upon some Pentecostal show on TV and flipped it back to something else, without realizing what it was I was watching. It wasn't till a friend of mine converted to Russian Orthodoxy that I was even introduced to it. And it wasn't until deciding to explore Christianity again at that age did I first encounter any branch of Christianity that did anything like the Charismatics do or believe. I can't even recall any mention of the term "Holy Spirit" prior to that ... in all the books I read, things I explored. I was ignorant of it all in a neutral sense: no exposure. There was a gap filled with believers of that type, which I didn't even know existed. My point, is that some of us ask questions for any number of reasons. Some of those reasons may be as you suggested, out of ignorance of the various systems in this large world. I don't doubt there are those who are difficult for the sake of being difficult ... but assuming the other person you are conversing with "knows" this or that, it's ... ignorant. Dude lol
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And all of this would be your view of "Christianity". Another person may not hold the same views, which is why asking and clarifying things like, "What do you mean by "God" ?" can help in conversing with the individual. If they keep making appeals to "I'm Christian. I believe the Bible. You know," it's not very helpful. Too vague. It's like asking someone what they want to eat. "I'm from the US. You know what I want to eat."
Here's an example of an honest question: the term "Orthodox" with a capital "O". I thought it was a term that only applied to those who adhere to the Eastern/Oriental schism groups (who as I recall, consider themselves the "true" Catholics, yes ?), as well as some Catholics who may sometimes use the term in regards to themselves but not often (i.e. the Catholics are the "true Orthodox"). I have never encountered Protestants using that term in regards to themselves, with a capitial "O", until these forums. So would a Russian Orthodox consider a Protestant who fulfills the standards set forth by CF for "Orthodox" as being "Orthodox" ?
The term "Christian" seems based on a set of goalposts that move for each person claiming the title, imo. Even if a group can agree on some commonalities, that is one GROUP. Even if it's a majority. This doesn't discredit the minority either. And concerning the icon use on CF ... there was a serious poster (I don't believe they were a troll) here not too long ago (I'm not going to point them out, I think that is rude) who used the icon yet rejected pretty much all the standard muster list of what it meant to use the icon. I don't think most of us are naive enough to base an entire judgment on someone and their concepts of God based on an icon they choose.
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Ignorance in a neutral sense. For any number of reasons. Lack of exposure, circumstance, etc. And again ... some of us do not base our perceptions of others off of assumptions.
When I was a young child ... I was allowed to explore pretty much anything spiritually or religious affiliated I wished. My mother couldn't stand religion of any kind, or anyone telling her what to believe, though being from the US South, she did have some basic ideas and beliefs (what I call "cultural osmosis" concepts lol) that were Bible Belt slanted. My father was an atheist/agnostic variety (he would claim one or the other off and on, depending on the year) but had a large library devoted to a variety of topics. Everything from Edgar Cayce, to Stichen, to the Happy Hooker, to Sun Tzu. I was allowed to read certain books at a young age, and ask questions ... and I had a diverse group of friends, everything from Santeria, to Hindu, to Islam, to Judaism, to Lutherans, Catholics, etc. I was allowed to ask questions, explore, etc. And I, on my own accord, would be asked to taken to a church down the road because I wanted to know and learn, (one of the reasons). It was a small Baptist church. I would even go by myself, ride my bike there, etc. And as I got older, many of my friends went to this one mega church (also a Baptist church) ... girls I dated went there, so I would sometimes go to functions with them.
In all my exploring, I never ONE TIME visited any Charismatic or Pentecostal type of environment, nor Eastern/Russian/Greek Orthodox environment. I didn't even know they existed. The very first time I ever encountered one, was when I was about 24 years old. I remember reading the Sign and the Seal (which deals with the Ethiopian Orthodox IIRC), but otherwise that was it in terms of "Orthodox". I had already lived over seas, been to maybe 20 countries or so ? Been to almost every state in the US, lived in a wide variety of situations ... but never one time had I ever encountered either one. It wasn't till a friend of mine converted to Russian Orthodoxy that I was even introduced to it. And it wasn't until deciding to explore Christianity again at that age did I first encounter any branch of Christianity that did anything like the Charismatics do or believe. I can't even recall any mention of the term "Holy Spirit" prior to that ... in all the books I read, things I explored. I was ignorant of it all in a neutral sense: no exposure. There was a gap filled with believers of that type, which I didn't even know existed. My point, is that some of us ask questions for any number of reasons. Some of those reasons may be as you suggested, out of ignorance of the various systems in this large world. I don't doubt there are those who are difficult for the sake of being difficult ... but assuming the other person you are conversing with "knows" this or that, it's ... ignorant. Dude lol
I appreciate you sharing that with me. I also had never heard of Orthodoxy until shortly after I became Christian at 43 years old. But a member (deist) in this forum just started a new thread inviting people to ask him questions. I asked him who Jesus Christ was, and he answered that there is no such person, and I must be talking about Yeshua of Nazareth, and that was his full answer. See what I mean about being difficult?
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It can make it confusing when you are trying to get to know a person who claims to be Christian, yet they are not going into detail about what that means to them
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