Let's discuss "selfish."

[Niffer]

These all involve making other people (kids) responsible for the purposes of your own needs and agenda. Kids exist so that you can a/b/c etc.

But...

Not one of these examples involve sticking other people (kids) with the responsibility of satisfying your own need(s) or agenda.

There's nothing selfish about any of these examples, no more than it's selfish to stick $100 into a savings account even though you could afford to spend it. You're not stimulating the economy, and instead keeping that money for yourself, so you're being selfish? Or not starting up a friendship with the guy sitting next to you on the bus because you don't want to be bothered maintaining another relationship. You're being selfish by not beginning something that never was in the first place? When you aren't bringing other people into things, and you are not subjecting your desires and goals for your life on other people, you're not being selfish.

I see it as completely apples and oranges.

But I do completely agree that we don't know each other's hearts to know what is done selfishly and what is not. And agree that we therefore should not judge someone's motives.

Hmm, I'm afraid I cannot agree with that either.
I think the most self-less thing you can do is put someone before yourself, and in havivng children - thats exactly what you're doing. It's no longer about "you" its about "them", you are the last in line.

Or at least, thats how it should be.
Like I said, everything can be done for selfish reasons - but it's hard telling a Mom who's had zero hours sleep, fighting to be frugal, expanding her patience beyond what is humanly possible, and trying to raise a child with a love for God and His Word as "Selfish." IMO.

 

[snoochface]

There are plenty of ways to put oneself on the back burner for the needs of others, to be selfless in relationships - not just having children. Personally, I've done this to serve my husband. I've done it to care for my elderly parents, and then to care for my elderly in-laws. I've done it through charity and community service work, through friendships, and in countless other areas of my life.

And of course, I'm also selfish in some areas of my life. I do like the freedom to go out without having to worry about getting a sitter (although with our current dog's issues, going out is no easier than it would be with a child). I like having expendable income, but that also allows me to serve more and to give more.

A mom with no sleep, limited income, struggling to raise a child has plenty of reason to be proud of their sacrifice on their child's behalf. I'm not trying to take any of that away from them. But it is most certainly not the only way, or the end-all/be-all way, to sacrifice yourself for the sake of another.

And as I said earlier in this thread, very often - especially for people like me, who do not want or like children, and who would make horrible parents because of our upbringing/history/issues - not having a child who would have someone like me as a parent, and subjecting myself to the judgment of Christians and society as a whole, is far more selfless than it is selfish.

 

[Rebekka]

I agree with snooch.

 

[Blueflamingos]

I agree with Snooch, too! Completely!

 

[Umaro]

A mom with no sleep, limited income, struggling to raise a child has plenty of reason to be proud of their sacrifice on their child's behalf. I'm not trying to take any of that away from them. But it is most certainly not the only way, or the end-all/be-all way, to sacrifice yourself for the sake of another.

I think this is the crux of the issue. Being a parent is full of doing things that really, really suck. Sure, it's great to watch your kid takes it's first few steps, but what did you spend the rest of that day doing? Not sleeping enough, cleaning up messes, trying to stop the crying, changing who knows how many diapers. Playing "peek-a-boo" for an hour, watching the same episode of Blues Clues....most of your daily grind isn't stuff you want to be doing. So they tell themselves what a great sacrifice it is and how they're doing it for the sake of humanity. If they didn't, they might risk realizing that life was more fun when they could do what they wanted to do. So naturally when they see a childfree person having disposable income and being able to go out to nice dinners and gatherings, they feel the need to cal them selfish. "How dare you go out and do these fun things I used to do before I had kids?! You should be wrist deep in diapers just like me!"

 

[Niffer]

I think this is the crux of the issue. Being a parent is full of doing things that really, really suck. Sure, it's great to watch your kid takes it's first few steps, but what did you spend the rest of that day doing? Not sleeping enough, cleaning up messes, trying to stop the crying, changing who knows how many diapers. Playing "peek-a-boo" for an hour, watching the same episode of Blues Clues....most of your daily grind isn't stuff you want to be doing. So they tell themselves what a great sacrifice it is and how they're doing it for the sake of humanity. If they didn't, they might risk realizing that life was more fun when they could do what they wanted to do. So naturally when they see a childfree person having disposable income and being able to go out to nice dinners and gatherings, they feel the need to cal them selfish. "How dare you go out and do these fun things I used to do before I had kids?! You should be wrist deep in diapers just like me!"

There is always the "grass is greener" symptom, I agree.
However, most people who want children, and proceed to have them, will tell you that to them - the good outweighs the bad.
Example - my sister is in the middle of potty-training my little nephew, is she annoyed when he pees or poops his pants? Of course, its gross, nasty work, and really, you can't get mad, because the child is learning.
No one wants to do that - ever.
However, like you would go through training a puppy to do his mess outside, its a part of life - and you adore your puppy, and know that the messy/gross/basic training won't last forever.

And the love and blessings you recieve back, far outnumbers the bad stuff.

((ppffff hahahaa....side note: i'm writing on my little netbook on my lap and the baby keeps kicking it through my belly and making me type funny, I think she's in agreement... ..random))

- Niff

 

[JaneFW]

I think this is the crux of the issue. Being a parent is full of doing things that really, really suck. Sure, it's great to watch your kid takes it's first few steps, but what did you spend the rest of that day doing? Not sleeping enough, cleaning up messes, trying to stop the crying, changing who knows how many diapers. Playing "peek-a-boo" for an hour, watching the same episode of Blues Clues....most of your daily grind isn't stuff you want to be doing. So they tell themselves what a great sacrifice it is and how they're doing it for the sake of humanity. If they didn't, they might risk realizing that life was more fun when they could do what they wanted to do. So naturally when they see a childfree person having disposable income and being able to go out to nice dinners and gatherings, they feel the need to cal them selfish. "How dare you go out and do these fun things I used to do before I had kids?! You should be wrist deep in diapers just like me!"

Wow. I serioiusly don't hate childless people. I could care less whether you have kids or you don't.

Similarly, you can't tell me that I think these things, because I never think of sacrifice or 'the sake of humanity', lol. Y'know, diapers don't last forever and a few years of hassle is more than worth the wonder of having a child - to me. I know you don't feel like that, and that's fine, great, terrific, but please don't tell people who have children what they think.

 

[Umaro]

There is always the "grass is greener" symptom, I agree.
However, most people who want children, and proceed to have them, will tell you that to them - the good outweighs the bad.
Example - my sister is in the middle of potty-training my little nephew, is she annoyed when he pees or poops his pants? Of course, its gross, nasty work, and really, you can't get mad, because the child is learning.
No one wants to do that - ever.
However, like you would go through training a puppy to do his mess outside, its a part of life - and you adore your puppy, and know that the messy/gross/basic training won't last forever.

And the love and blessings you recieve back, far outnumbers the bad stuff.

((ppffff hahahaa....side note: i'm writing on my little netbook on my lap and the baby keeps kicking it through my belly and making me type funny, I think she's in agreement... ..random))

- Niff

Sure, those parents tell me it's worth it, but every scientific study I've ever seen has told me that people are happier/less stressed/more successful when they don't have children, so forgive me if I don't quite believe them.

Plus, there's a difference. Sure, people who have dogs deal with the potty training thing too, but I think I've ever been called selfish because I don't plan to get a dog.

No, for some reason it's only having children that I get called selfish before, despite a huge number of other "selfless" things I could be doing instead of spending money doing things I find fun.


I find it absurd that people call me selfish for not wanting to deal with this everyday.

 

[april_eric_always_forever]

Wow. I serioiusly don't hate childless people. I could care less whether you have kids or you don't.

Similarly, you can't tell me that I think these things, because I never think of sacrifice or 'the sake of humanity', lol. Y'know, diapers don't last forever and a few years of hassle is more than worth the wonder of having a child - to me. I know you don't feel like that, and that's fine, great, terrific, but please don't tell people who have children what they think.

No offense but this is supposed to be a childfree forum. Those of you who post who have children should be respectful of what us childfree deal with from a lot of parents out there. We aren't saying that every single parent is going to behave that way towards us, but realize that a lot do and it's good to have a place that is supposed to be "safe" to vent about it.

 

[Niffer]

Sure, those parents tell me it's worth it, but every scientific study I've ever seen has told me that people are happier/less stressed/more successful when they don't have children, so forgive me if I don't quite believe them.

Plus, there's a difference. Sure, people who have dogs deal with the potty training thing too, but I think I've ever been called selfish because I don't plan to get a dog.

No, for some reason it's only having children that I get called selfish before, despite a huge number of other "selfless" things I could be doing instead of spending money doing things I find fun.


I find it absurd that people call me selfish for not wanting to deal with this everyday.

I don't remember anyone here calling you selfish, Umaro.
However, I would call out those "scientific studies" you talked about...as for not believing people who say they enjoy having children...well, I guess its just not something you can understand.
No one can force you to believe anything.

I wish you wouuldn't get so hot-headed so quickly though, perhaps you didn't mean to, but your post came off as very defensive.

- Niffer

 

[JaneFW]

No offense but this is supposed to be a childfree forum. Those of you who post who have children should be respectful of what us childfree deal with from a lot of parents out there. We aren't saying that every single parent is going to behave that way towards us, but realize that a lot do and it's good to have a place that is supposed to be "safe" to vent about it.

In what way was I disrespectful? Perhaps you could point it out so that I can make sure that I am not disrespectful again?

 

[Rebekka]

In what way was I disrespectful? Perhaps you could point it out so that I can make sure that I am not disrespectful again?

I can't answer for april but non-childfree posting here is actually against the forum rules that can be found in the pinned threads on top.

I've objected to parents posting here before (because some threads become debates between parents and childfree, and we're not here to defend ourselves, this is our safe haven) but so far mods are not really active here. Most parents posting here are respectful but not all.

 

[Rebekka]

I could care less whether you have kids or you don't.

Why do you care about this at all?

 

[april_eric_always_forever]

In what way was I disrespectful? Perhaps you could point it out so that I can make sure that I am not disrespectful again?

You just seem to be taking your thoughts out on us. We are only trying to have a place where it really is safe for us to discuss things without judgement from those who have children. I'm also not sure why you are even posting in this forum (why you care to).

 

[snoochface]

I don't remember anyone here calling you selfish, Umaro.

Check the thread title. That's what we're talking about -- how child free people get called selfish for not having children. His point is no one calls you selfish for not wanting a dog, etc.

 

[Umaro]

I don't remember anyone here calling you selfish, Umaro.

Not here, just people in general. It's sort of the point of the topic that people call the childfree selfish for not wanting children.

However, I would call out those "scientific studies" you talked about...

Here are a few. The Time article and the second one listed both link to a number of other studies supporting childfree people as being happier, less angry, having more successful marriages, etc.

Study: Does Having Kids Makes Parents Delusional? - - TIME Healthland Best one IMO
Does Having Children Make You Unhappy? - NYTimes.com
Why Parents Hate Parenting -- New York Magazine

as for not believing people who say they enjoy having children...well, I guess its just not something you can understand.
No one can force you to believe anything.

Yeah, I've never understood the desire in the slightest. I really have tried though. I think a lot of it has to do with what parents say vs what parents do. I hear people talk about how they love spending time with their kids, but then I see Facebook status' like "so glad to get a weekend away." I hear about how rewarding all the work is, but if I'm ever visiting the parents are at wits end with stress. They tell me it's fun to play with the baby, but I've never met a person who enjoys playing peek-a-boo for an hour, or would rather watch Blues Clues than something more adult oriented. I can list dozens of valid reasons not to have children, but when I ask people to list reasons for children it's always an emotional appeal about how rewarding it is.

I wish you wouuldn't get so hot-headed so quickly though, perhaps you didn't mean to, but your post came off as very defensive.

- Niffer

It's probably habit at this point. For most everything else I don't get too defensive, but when discussing having children it always seems to get to me. It gets pretty old pretty fast to have literally everyone in your life tell you that a fundamental belief you hold is wrong, and that you'll change your mind, or think they can coerce/goad you into it. So if I seem defensive, it's probably because for the most part I feel like I'm under attack about it constantly.

 

[Niffer]

It's probably habit at this point. For most everything else I don't get too defensive, but when discussing having children it always seems to get to me. It gets pretty old pretty fast to have literally everyone in your life tell you that a fundamental belief you hold is wrong, and that you'll change your mind, or think they can coerce/goad you into it. So if I seem defensive, it's probably because for the most part I feel like I'm under attack about it constantly.

That surprises me a little..I mean you're not married, you're young, you're just dating, why on earth would people be on your case about not having children?

When I think of couples who go to a more traditionalist church, and have been married for years - I don't doubt they get the "so when are having kids?" question a LOT.

But thats about the absolute last thing I'd ask an unmarried, 24 year old guy.
Maybe its your community/church that are pushing so hard?
Because I would make the generalization that most people wouldn't bother trying to preach 'have babies' to a young, unmarried guy.

Thats why I asked how long you had been married - I just assumed if you were asking about babies, (or arguing against ) that this was a fairly prominent situation in your life.

Huh. Interesting.

- Niff

 

[Umaro]

That surprises me a little..I mean you're not married, you're young, you're just dating, why on earth would people be on your case about not having children?

When I think of couples who go to a more traditionalist church, and have been married for years - I don't doubt they get the "so when are having kids?" question a LOT.

But thats about the absolute last thing I'd ask an unmarried, 24 year old guy.
Maybe its your community/church that are pushing so hard?
Because I would make the generalization that most people wouldn't bother trying to preach 'have babies' to a young, unmarried guy.

Thats why I asked how long you had been married - I just assumed if you were asking about babies, (or arguing against ) that this was a fairly prominent situation in your life.

Huh. Interesting.

- Niff

You'd be surprised. I still get flack, it's just in a different form. Rather than "when are you having children?" it's "how can you say you never want children?"

Or take my old job for instance. All my coworkers knew I really don't like children, so they found it hilarious to always have me be the one assisting someone who came in with a young child. Of course, they'd always follow up with "see, kids aren't so bad, you're great with them, you'll change your mind someday."

There's also the not insignificant time I spent researching a vasectomy, which naturally showed quite a lot of people I know how serious I felt on it, and gave them the impression there was a small time window to convince me otherwise.

I'm actually quite worried about the future when everyone I know starts having children. I get the impression I'm going to lose a whole lot of friends because rather than going out to do things they won't be able to find a sitter, and rather than discussing interesting things they'll be all about diapers and soccer practice. I've seen it happen before, and I'm not looking forward to that time.

 

[Niffer]

While I'm not arguing that kids take up time, and mental space.
Not all parents are old fuddy-duddies who just like to sit around and talk diapers.

That's like saying a woman must be uneducated because she chooses to be a stay-at-home wife/mother - it's a huge (and dangerous) generalization.
Lots pf parents can talk about "interesting" things, Umaro.

Your worry of losing friends isn't unfounded - they'd be at a totally different stage of life than you, so finding common ground can be difficult.
However, like any relationship you have to meet them halfway.

If you stop talking/visiting with your friends, just because they have children, then you're just as guilty for severing the cord.
I hope you're not the type of person to dump friends because they make a life-style choice (eg. having kids) that you don't personally agree with.

That'd be sad.

- Niffer

P.s. I don't think I come across as one of those fuddie-duddies, I think we could have a very interesting conversation - even though I am a parent.....

 

[Umaro]

While I'm not arguing that kids take up time, and mental space.
Not all parents are old fuddy-duddies who just like to sit around and talk diapers.

That's like saying a woman must be uneducated because she chooses to be a stay-at-home wife/mother - it's a huge (and dangerous) generalization.
Lots pf parents can talk about "interesting" things, Umaro.

Your worry of losing friends isn't unfounded - they'd be at a totally different stage of life than you, so finding common ground can be difficult.
However, like any relationship you have to meet them halfway.

If you stop talking/visiting with your friends, just because they have children, then you're just as guilty for severing the cord.
I hope you're not the type of person to dump friends because they make a life-style choice (eg. having kids) that you don't personally agree with.

That'd be sad.

- Niffer

P.s. I don't think I come across as one of those fuddie-duddies, I think we could have a very interesting conversation - even though I am a parent.....

It's not that I plan to dump them, it's that from what I've heard they tend to fade away out of circumstances. After a kid comes along, odds are every time I call up with "Hey, I got tickets to see Wicked, you guys should come" it's "we can't, the baby." Sure, if the stars align we might get to see each other every two weeks or so when they can get a sitter, but eventually I'll probably stop asking since I already know the answer. That's just the way things go.

Likewise, I'm not saying they'll stop having interesting conversation because they have kids, it's because they'll stop doing other things. It'll be "today on a whim I decided to bike 4 miles and found an awesome deli, what did you do?"
"Well, I came home from work, cleaned up some messes, made dinner, then collapsed at 8pm into bed."

People talk about what they know and do, and parents of young children usually aren't doing very much else.