Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?

[iamlamad]

Learn this truth first

The seals are portents [previews] of the prevalent conditions of the coming judgment still pending ... not the actual events

The events of the tribulation judgments upon the earth begin in chapter 8

Also know that Revelation is given by subject set of which the subjects are repeated giving more details .... so the book is not presented in strict chronological time lapse as the narrative moves forward

For example; the immortals of the Lord's true ecclesia are seen several times in heaven as Revelation progresses .... look for those who dwell in heaven as the tribulation plays out upon the earth

This is prophetic prose used by the prophets .... repeating and adding details to a given theme or subject

Straightshot, WHEN are you going to get these things straight in your mind?

Seal one was the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL around 32 AD - the very time Jesus ascended into heaven to break that seal. Seal 2-4 are to represent the feeble attempts of Satan to stop the advance of the gospel. They were limited in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. We can be sure that 1/4 centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began.

So the first 5 seals are of PAST Events, not coming. The 6th seal is a coming event. And if you read closely you will see that each seal represents an event - yes, ACTUAL events.

I agree on chapter 8 being the start of the 70th week.

You are wrong again and there is no way you can back up your statement with scripture to prove it. John does NOT "repeat adding details." It IS a very strict chronological narrative, except for parentheses: it is the way it is written. If you disagree the burden of proof is on you to prove John was NOT chronological.

Your example is meaningless. There were people in heaven before John began to write, and many more people in heaven after the great crowd was seen there. They were there already when it was time for the marriage and supper.

 

[Straightshot]

"Straightshot, WHEN are you going to get these things straight in your mind?"

"Your example is meaningless"


All ready straight son .... no doubt

You have a nasty disposition along with your package so you will have to find someone else on the forum to entertain you .... got it?

 

[LastSeven]

You certainly cannot prove they are out of order. And you would be accusing John and the Holy Spirit of mixing them up. Anyway, you are simply WRONG. Jesus told those in Judea to flee when they saw the abomination. You want the fleeing first, and then the abomination?

I agree on your first point.

Look up progressive parallelism. It's not mixed up, it's a style of writing.

 

[Straightshot]

"Look up progressive parallelism. It's not mixed up, it's a style of writing"


All prophecy is conveyed by the Lord through His Bible prophets and his communication style is progressive revelation throughout the scriptures

All of the OT prophets present this exact format of a particular subject adding details as the narrative moves forward

In order to grasp the Lord's prophetic truths one must look for this prose and also must glean all of the related scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, not just a few

 

[LastSeven]

"Look up progressive parallelism. It's not mixed up, it's a style of writing"


All prophecy is conveyed by the Lord through His Bible prophets and his communication style is progressive revelation throughout the scriptures

All of the OT prophets present this exact format of a particular subject adding details as the narrative moves forward

In order to grasp the Lord's prophetic truths one must look for this prose and also must glean all of the related scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, not just a few

if you don't know what progressive paralellism is, do some research, don't dismiss it.

 

[iamlamad]

"Straightshot, WHEN are you going to get these things straight in your mind?"

"Your example is meaningless"


All ready straight son .... no doubt

You have a nasty disposition along with your package so you will have to find someone else on the forum to entertain you .... got it?

Not at all. I just see you write the same dither over and over again. You should have found the truth by now. Anyone can make the first seals anything they wish, by just pulling them out of the context of the vision of the throne room, then allowing their human reasoning, with preconceived glasses, to take over.

If you leave them in their context, Jesus had JUST ASCENDED after raising from the dead, which ties the TIMING to around 32 AD. Neither you nor anyone else can find 2000 years hidden in any of those verses: it is not there.

 

[iamlamad]

"Look up progressive parallelism. It's not mixed up, it's a style of writing"


All prophecy is conveyed by the Lord through His Bible prophets and his communication style is progressive revelation throughout the scriptures

All of the OT prophets present this exact format of a particular subject adding details as the narrative moves forward

In order to grasp the Lord's prophetic truths one must look for this prose and also must glean all of the related scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, not just a few

Progressive Parallelism is fine, and I am sure you can find it somewhere; just NOT in Revelation. That is MYTH.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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[LastSeven]

Progressive Parallelism is fine, and I am sure you can find it somewhere; just NOT in Revelation. That is MYTH.

If it's a myth then why does God say "It is done" way back in chapter 16 and then again in chapter 21? And why is the judging of the dead mentioned both in chapter 12 and chapter 20? And why is God's eternal reign also mentioned in chapter 12? And why is the battle of Armageddon mentioned three times? Chapters 16, 19 and 20?

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The key to understanding prophetic prose with correct rendering is to know that the prophet's style of writing given by the Lord is repetitive and progressive by adding more details

Both the OT prophets and revealings in Revelation are presented in this fashion .... and all must be taken together for the comprehensive overview

The Lord's Word [Bible] is one book connected and perfectly compatible throughout

In Revelation the 7 seals are portents of the coming judgment .... then the actual judgment events are given beginning in chapter 8 .... hence the repetition of the prose

The chapters containing the events themselves present the same characteristic repeating giving more details in a revolving fashion and not necessarily in chronological order

Example: the Lord's true immortal ecclesia are seen just before, during, and at the end of the tribulation [Revelation 4;4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:14; 20:4]

There are also two chapters that contain historical reach backs given for extended overview [Revelation 12; 17]

If one attempts to read the prophetic materials in strict chronological order, this will end up in utter confusion and it will produce many contradictions

 

[iamlamad]

If it's a myth then why does God say "It is done" way back in chapter 16 and then again in chapter 21? And why is the judging of the dead mentioned both in chapter 12 and chapter 20? And why is God's eternal reign also mentioned in chapter 12? And why is the battle of Armageddon mentioned three times? Chapters 16, 19 and 20?

"it is done" shown twice? Two different things are done. Very simple.

The time of judging in chapter 11 is a prophecy given by the 24 elders of what will soon come. Every human on earth will be judged, but different groups at different times. Believers, for example, will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ. Sinners face a different judgment.

Revelation 11:15... and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:17...because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Revelation 19:6 ...Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

This is something that can be said over and over. It is truth: God reigns. It certainly does not mean parallelism.

For Armageddon, please show the verses.

In fact, there IS parallelism in Revelation, but you have failed to show it.
Starting in chapter 11 and in chapters 12 and 13 John mentions 5 different events that will begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week:
42 months of trampling
1260 days of testifying
1260 days of fleeing
time, times and half of time of protection and feeding
42 months of authority.

John mentions these in the order in which the counting begins. They don't all begin on the same day. But all of these timing counts will be running down through chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16.
Then John has his normal narrative also, so we could add another parallel.

The thing is, when several things are happening at once, it is impossible to write of each one at the same time. So John writes of each one separately, in the order of when the counting will begin. This is NOT progressive parallelism. John is not repeating himself.

If you would look, John never mentions the first seal again once it is broken, nor the second, nor the third, and so on through the seals, the trumpets and the vials. There simply IS NO progressive parallelism.

 

[iamlamad]

My comment

The key to understanding prophetic prose with correct rendering is to know that the prophet's style of writing given by the Lord is repetitive and progressive by adding more details

Both the OT prophets and revealings in Revelation are presented in this fashion .... and all must be taken together for the comprehensive overview

The Lord's Word [Bible] is one book connected and perfectly compatible throughout

In Revelation the 7 seals are portents of the coming judgment .... then the actual judgment events are given beginning in chapter 8 .... hence the repetition of the prose

The chapters containing the events themselves present the same characteristic repeating giving more details in a revolving fashion and not necessarily in chronological order

Example: the Lord's true immortal ecclesia are seen just before, during, and at the end of the tribulation [Revelation 4;4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:14; 20:4]

There are also two chapters that contain historical reach backs given for extended overview [Revelation 12; 17]

If one attempts to read the prophetic materials in strict chronological order, this will end up in utter confusion and it will produce many contradictions

In Revelation the 7 seals are portents of the coming judgment NOT! How funny! John told us they were seals sealing a document.

 

[LastSeven]

"it is done" shown twice? Two different things are done. Very simple.

Weak. God only has one plan, and that's the only finish line he's working towards.

The time of judging in chapter 11 is a prophecy given by the 24 elders of what will soon come. Every human on earth will be judged, but different groups at different times. Believers, for example, will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ. Sinners face a different judgment.

Extremely weak as there is no scripture anywhere that says there will be two judgments.

Revelation 11:15... and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 11:17...because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Revelation 19:6 ...Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Revelation 11:15 "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
Revelation 11:17 "you have taken your great power and have begun to reign".

Both verses are in the current tense, in relation to the seventh trumpet.

For Armageddon, please show the verses.

Revelation 16:12-16
The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

 

[iamlamad]

Weak. God only has one plan, and that's the only finish line he's working towards.

Extremely weak as there is no scripture anywhere that says there will be two judgments.

Revelation 11:15 "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
Revelation 11:17 "you have taken your great power and have begun to reign".

Both verses are in the current tense, in relation to the seventh trumpet.

Revelation 16:12-16
The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

Revelation 20:7-10
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.

Not weak at all: when the 7th angel sounds, man's rule on earth is done, over. The next thousand years will be with God ruling earth. Satan's time as god of this world is done also. Those are very good reasons to say "it is done." With Satan out of the way, now God's will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

In chapter 21, judgment is finished. Again a perfect time to say, "it is done."

You are mistaken again. Each trumpet judgment is a judgment. Each vial of wrath is a judgment. If you noticed, they get worse as time goes on.

"has become" is exactly what will have happened at that time. Satan's rule over the earth is done. He usurped Adam's lease, and Adam's lease will run out at the 7th trumpet. Man's 6000 years of rule will be OVER! Hallelujah! OF COURSE Jesus takes His power back to Himself: the church has been raptured (at this time in John's narrative) and the church will have no more use of God's power. So Jesus takes it back. (He gave it to the church when He sent them out.)

I agree, these things WILL HAPPEN when the 7th trumpet sounds. It will have been 6000 years from the time of Adam. His lease (the document with the 7 seals) will END, and this will END Satan's reign as god of this world.

WE have the great battle of Armageddon which will be shortly after the 70th week will have finished. But then over a thousand years later, ANOTHER battle because Satan will have been released. So TWO battles, and after each one God could have said, "it is done." He did not.

John gives is a history book of the future. We really should believe it as written, and not attempt to rearrange it.

 

[Straightshot]

"In Revelation the 7 seals are portents of the coming judgment NOT! How funny!"


This truth blows your theology and you get do nasty and angry when it is presented to you

The seals of the scroll are portents of the prevalent conditions of coming tribulation, and until the Lord removes all of them it will not open .... He has not removed the yet, but will just before [Revelation 5:5-10]

The angelic cherubs and the 24 elders and the pre-tribulation immortals of His true ecclesia will observe the removal of the seals [Revelation 7:9-17]

Then the events of the tribulation will begin in chapter 8

 

[Job8]

Linet, do you believe the book of Revelation is 100% chronologically written?

95-100%.

 

[iamlamad]

"In Revelation the 7 seals are portents of the coming judgment NOT! How funny!"


This truth blows your theology and you get do nasty and angry when it is presented to you

The seals of the scroll are portents of the prevalent conditions of coming tribulation, and until the Lord removes all of them it will not open .... He has not removed the yet, but will just before [Revelation 5:5-10]

The angelic cherubs and the 24 elders and the pre-tribulation immortals of His true ecclesia will observe the removal of the seals [Revelation 7:9-17]

Then the events of the tribulation will begin in chapter 8

It is truth ONLY in your imagination.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

The seals are sealing a book to prevent anyone from reading it. And if you read chapters 4 & 5, the CONTEXT of the first seal, you will see it is HISTORY, and has very little to do with what is coming.

I will agree, before anything can happen that is written in chapter 8, that is the trumpet judgments, all seven seals must be opened.

Your timing is around 2000 years off! The Church was sent out with the gospel around 32 AD and commanded to take the gospel to the world. That is what the first seal represents.

By the way, I am not getting nasty. I just know the truth. You think you do.

Why do you ignore what chapter 5 tells us: that John was seeing the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, having just risen from the dead? This is CONTEXT and you will not have the truth until you consider the context. ANYONE can ignore context and come up with human reasoning. I think you can do better.

 

[Postvieww]

Chronology in scripture:


God had made man and woman in Gen 1:26-27


Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


God’s creation completed.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The narrative backs up with more detail, describing how man was made.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,


5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.


6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.


The narrative backs up and describes how woman was made.



Gen 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;



22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


The point here is chapter 1 is an overview ,chapter 2 backs up and gives more detail.



The same method was used in Revelation . Chapter 6 is an overview, chapters 7 thru 19 give the details.

 

[Douggg]

In fact, there IS parallelism in Revelation, but you have failed to show it.
Starting in chapter 11 and in chapters 12 and 13 John mentions 5 different events that will begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week:
42 months of trampling
1260 days of testifying
1260 days of fleeing
time, times and half of time of protection and feeding
42 months of authority.

Not possible - because in Revelation 12 both the presentation order and the timeline order is

1260 days; then the war in heaven; then the time, times, half times.

 

[Straightshot]

"The seals are sealing a book to prevent anyone from reading it"


Your joke is upon you son .... I wondered why you have never read the Lord's book of Revelation telling of His coming judgment upon the earth and beyond

Now I know why you do not understand much

Hint: you can read it ... it is right in front of your face

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.