"Let us go down and confuse their language."

[JackRT]

The Trinity, i can explain, but i cannot figure out how to explain myself if i should be asked about when at the Tower of Babel God said, "Let us go down and confuse their language..."
Who is the "us", if God is one?

Also, it says “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..."

That is an excellent question. What few Christians understand is that the Hebrews were not originally monotheistic. By the time of the writing of Genesis they were actually "henotheistic". That is to say, they believed in the pantheon of Middle Eastern gods but were permitted to worship just one --- their tribal god. That one was known as "Yah" in Judea or "El" in the Northern Kingdom. Over the next several centuries this understanding became monotheistic in that they came to believe that El or Yah was the only God. I hope that explains the origins of your confusion.

 

[Hazelelponi]

To the CHRISTIAN members. Not the "new students" of Christianity.
To prevent this thread from going HORRIBLY astray, please reread my original post
Thanks
Robbie

Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Your thinking way too much of Muslims, and way too little of God if they are your god.

 

[robbiedaug]

That is an excellent question. What few Christians understand is that the Hebrews were not originally monotheistic. By the time of the writing of Genesis they were actually "henotheistic". That is to say, they believed in the pantheon of Middle Eastern gods but were permitted to worship just one --- their tribal god. That one was known as "Yah" in Judea or "El" in the Northern Kingdom. Over the next several centuries this understanding became monotheistic in that they came to believe that El or Yah was the only God. I hope that explains the origins of your confusion.

Hi
It does not explain why GOD said, "Let Us go down and confuse their language" and "Let Us make man in Our image, Our likeness."
Are you suggesting that God is Jewish?

Thanks,
Robbie

 

[robbiedaug]

Again. Let me re-quote WHY i am here before somebody tries to accuse me of something.

HI all,
I've been listening to a Christian man on youtube who debates Muslims and Islam.
His channel is called Christian Prince Debates.
The guy knows his stuff in and out.

Today i heard a long debate between him and a Muslim guy.
The Muslims believe we Jesus followers worship THREE gods, God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. They think this is laughable as they LOVE to challenge us about the Trinity.

The Trinity, i can explain, but i cannot figure out how to explain myself if i should be asked about when at the Tower of Babel God said, "Let us go down and confuse their language..."
Who is the "us", if God is one?

Also, it says “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..."

In heaven, God should not have a human form.
In John, it says,
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.…"

So this means that Jesus was in Heaven with God, but also as a Spirit. Correct?
So again, i am a bit confused with how many.

The Trinity is easy to explain but when the Bible uses the word "Us", it confounds the idea of one God.

Can anyone help me understand what i could say to Muslims who should ask me to explain this "Us" business?

Thanks
Robbie

 

[robbiedaug]

Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Your thinking way too much of Muslims, and way too little of God if they are your god.

Right. I suppose you will accuse me of being Islamophobic next. YOU are going in the wrong direction in MY thread. Please stop it.

 

[JackRT]

It does not explain why GOD said, "Let Us go down and confuse their language" and "Let Us make man in Our image, Our likeness."
Are you suggesting that God is Jewish?

I am simply suggesting that these scriptures were written out of Hebrew/Jewish perspective and that perspective changed over the centuries.

 

[robbiedaug]

I am simply suggesting that these scriptures were written out of Hebrew/Jewish perspective and that perspective changed over the centuries.

Okay, but the Bible STILL says those words from God. So how has anything "changed over the centuries"?
Do you really think you've answered my question with that?

Thanks,
Robbie

 

[JackRT]

Okay, but the Bible STILL says those words from God.

Yes, and the Bible still speaks out of the perceptions of its human authors.

 

[eleos1954]

HI all,
I've been listening to a Christian man on youtube who debates Muslims and Islam.
His channel is called Christian Prince Debates.
The guy knows his stuff in and out.

Today i heard a long debate between him and a Muslim guy.
The Muslims believe we Jesus followers worship THREE gods, God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. They think this is laughable as they LOVE to challenge us about the Trinity.

The Trinity, i can explain, but i cannot figure out how to explain myself if i should be asked about when at the Tower of Babel God said, "Let us go down and confuse their language..."
Who is the "us", if God is one?

Also, it says “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness..."

In heaven, God should not have a human form.
In John, it says,
"1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.…"

So this means that Jesus was in Heaven with God, but also as a Spirit. Correct?
So again, i am a bit confused with how many.

The Trinity is easy to explain but when the Bible uses the word "Us", it confounds the idea of one God.

Can anyone help me understand what i could say to Muslims who should ask me to explain this "Us" business?

Thanks
Robbie

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

The Father the Son join in phileo of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit and Father join in phileo over the Son, the Son and the Holy Spirit together embrace the Father with phileo—three Persons united in mutual love.

phileo -
It only desires good things for the other and is compassionate. But the third time that Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him, He uses 'phileo,' which speaks of affection, fondness and liking the other. This love is companionable and relational. It's brotherly and friendship love.

Us in regard to the trinity is three coeternal persons united in love and are therefore one.

John 17 - Jesus prays that we will have this same type of loving relationship.

20 I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

God Bless.

 

[robbiedaug]

Yes, and the Bible still speaks out of the perceptions of its human authors.

"Human authors" which were moved by the Holy Spirit, you mean?

It seems to me that you say "human authors" as if to try to indicate that the words are useless or perhaps written in error.
Are you suggesting the Book we read is full of "human" errors, then?

Thanks,
Robbie

 

[robbiedaug]

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.

But why three persons? Why does singular GOD say, "Let US go down..." "Let US make man..."?

I don't care how many Bible verses people choose to copy/paste. It means little...you can quote the whole Bible if you want, but the question still remains UNanswered.

Thanks,
Robbie

 

[robbiedaug]

Just an observation.

...God is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation.

The Bible says God has a finger, and that Jesus sits at His right side. Should we assume God is male by the possessive pronoun, "His"?

 

[Hazelelponi]

But why three persons? Why does singular GOD say, "LET US go down..." Let US make man..."?

I don't care how many Bible verses people choose to copy/paste. It means little...you can quote the whole Bible if you want, but the question still remains UNanswered.

Thanks,
Robbie

I answered, you just didn't like my answer but here it is from Christians:

"The effect of the majestic plural is to indicate greatness, power, and prestige. It is normally reserved for use by nobles, kings, popes, and other persons of high rank when speaking in an official capacity or by those of lower rank when speaking of or to their betters.

In the Bible, we find four verses in which God refers to Himself using plural pronouns. The most well-known passage is Genesis 1:26: “Then God said, ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.’” See also Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8. The One God is speaking of Himself in plural form: us and our. This is a perfect example of the majestic plural. God’s divine greatness and transcendence are emphasized through the simple use of pronouns.

The majestic plural is also found in one of God’s most common names in the Old Testament, Elohim. The word itself is plural"

What is the majestic plural, and how is it used in the Bible?

 

[eleos1954]

But why three persons? Why does singular GOD say, "LET US go down..." Let US make man..."?

I don't care how many Bible verses people choose to copy/paste. It means little...you can quote the whole Bible if you want, but the question still remains UNanswered.

Thanks,
Robbie

ok ... let's try a different approach.

They Each Are In Full Cooperation with one another, therefore 3 in 1 = us

The Father creates, the Son redeems, and the Holy Spirit sets apart. Yet they perform these roles in full cooperation with the other members. In each operation, all three members are present.

Although the Father is preeminently the Creator the Son and Spirit were also involved.

The Son is the Redeemer, yet God the Father and the Spirit are described as sending the Son to redeem.

The Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier, yet the Father and Son also cooperate in this work.

They Testify To Each Other

The Father testified to the Son

And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:17).

The Son testified to the Father

Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does (John 5:19).

The Son testified to the Spirit

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you (John 14:26).

Later, the Holy Spirit testified to the Son.

When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me (John 15:26).

 

[JackRT]

"Human authors" which were moved by the Holy Spirit, you mean?

It seems to me that you say "human authors" as if to try to indicate that the words are useless or perhaps written in error.
Are you suggesting the Book we read is full of "human" errors, then?

Thanks,
Robbie

I simply said "the Bible still speaks out of the perceptions of its human authors". I was not suggesting anything more than that.

 

[JackRT]

Just an observation.

The Bible says God has a finger, and that Jesus sits at His right side. Should we assume God is male by the possessive pronoun, "His"?

God is completely transcendent to any human attempt to describe. We need to remember that in our reading of scripture.

 

[robbiedaug]

...Christians...

Christians, you say?
Hmm, but
"William Longchamp is credited with the introduction of the Royal We to England in the late 12th century, following the practice of the Chancery of Apostolic Briefs.

William de Longchamp[a] (died 1197) was a medieval Lord Chancellor, Chief Justiciar, and Bishop of Ely in England. Born to a humble family in Normandy, he owed his advancement to royal favour". ~wiki

He was just a man. Why believe JUST a man when dealing with the words of God, Himself, from the Bible?
Did Longchamp have some sort of personal hotline to Heaven?

Are we supposed to tell an irate Muslim that Mr Longchamp told us that?

Thanks,
Robbie

 

[robbiedaug]

[QUOTE="JackRT, post: 73352742, member: 381486"]God is completely transcendent to any human attempt to describe. We need to remember that in our reading of scripture.[/QUOTE]

Do you believe that the "Islamic Allah" and the "Judeo-Christian God" is the same, one and only "God" but with different "names"?

Thanks,
Robbie

 

[JackRT]

[QUOTE="JackRT, post: 73352742, member: 381486"]God is completely transcendent to any human attempt to describe. We need to remember that in our reading of scripture.

Do you believe that the "Islamic Allah" and the "Judeo-Christian God" is the same, one and only "God" but with different "names"?

Thanks,
Robbie[/QUOTE]

There is only ONE GOD but certainly perceived differently. As an example, some years ago I visited a Hindu temple. I stood before the altar area staring in silent amazement at the multitude of images of various deities, some of them very bizarre indeed. I had been there several minutes when I heard a gentle voice behind me say "God is One." I turned to meet the pundit (priest) of the temple. As he escorted me around the altar area he explained that while God is One, we in our finitude are unable to comprehend the fullness of God in a single "take". Each one of the "deities" before us was simply a different manifestation of God's Oneness.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Christians, you say?
Hmm, but
"William Longchamp is credited with the introduction of the Royal We to England in the late 12th century, following the practice of the Chancery of Apostolic Briefs.

William de Longchamp[a] (died 1197) was a medieval Lord Chancellor, Chief Justiciar, and Bishop of Ely in England. Born to a humble family in Normandy, he owed his advancement to royal favour". ~wiki

He was just a man. Why believe JUST a man when dealing with the words of God, Himself, from the Bible?
Did Longchamp have some sort of personal hotline to Heaven?

Are we supposed to tell an irate Muslim that Mr Longchamps told us that?

Thanks,
Robbie

The royal we existed in Semitic languages for thousands of years.

It's not introduced in England.