Legislating Courtesy

[Chesterton]

I'm neither a pregnant lady nor a person with small children, and my church's liturgy is twice as long as yours (apparently).

Braggart.

None of that really makes a difference as to whether or not I can stand for the usual amount of time that we do in worship, because I can't. The two are not really related. Since it varies so much from person to person, you can't really look at people you know who can do it and use them as a gauge, though I suppose it makes sense why you would. We can only go by what we see unless we ourselves are experiencing it, right? But unfortunately it doesn't work out that way in reality. I would love to be able to say that I get some kind of special 'boost' by virtue of being in liturgy, but I'm still in my same old body, and it still doesn't want to cooperate, no differently than at the grocery store or the doctor's office or wherever. So we have workarounds there, too (e.g., I don't line up to venerate the gospel and cross, but abouna will bring them to me for veneration, because he understands I'm not choosing to sit it out).

I'm having a hard time imaging how this works. How can a person who can walk into a store not be able to stand for a few minutes? I've rarely ever waited in line at any business for more than a few minutes. The population of my city is 3 times that of Portugal's biggest city. I can't imagine my average waiting time is longer than their's, or that of most other American cities.

That's a good system, I guess. You'd want to have something that both holds people accountable for abuses of the rules and also lets others know that this person will need to make use of the courtesy system or whatever it's called. I would not mind something like that, if we were to have a law like this in the United States, as I too have experienced harassment from people who for some reason think I shouldn't be allowed to park in disabled parking and aren't shy about telling me so. (I'm not sure how they reached that conclusion, but I guess that's immaterial, as the placard is there either way.)

Do you walk away from your car after you park?

 

[Chesterton]

Is it really so terrible to trust that if someone claims they need a bit of extra support, that that might actually be true, and give it to them?

A medical tag might be one way to manage it for people who can't manage to be courteous without "proof" of the need.

Yes, it can be terrible to trust. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're trying to guilt-trip me for wanting to prevent fraud and cheating, and paint me as cold-hearted. Do you realize that people like you are the ones I'm looking out for? How would you feel if you were standing on that bus, very sick and losing lots of blood as you say, and the available seats were taken by liars who just claimed "I'm sick, too" when they weren't? It's the same principle with welfare fraud and charity in general. There is only a finite amount of money, and bus seats, and first places in line. The cheaters need to be sought out because they are stealing from the people who really need it. If I give $10 to a fake charity, that's $10 less I have to give to a genuine charity, so it's very important to make sure of the actuality of charities.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, it can be terrible to trust. I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're trying to guilt-trip me for wanting to prevent fraud and cheating, and paint me as cold-hearted. Do you realize that people like you are the ones I'm looking out for? How would you feel if you were standing on that bus, very sick and losing lots of blood as you say, and the available seats were taken by liars who just claimed "I'm sick, too" when they weren't? It's the same principle with welfare fraud and charity in general. There is only a finite amount of money, and bus seats, and first places in line. The cheaters need to be sought out because they are stealing from the people who really need it. If I give $10 to a fake charity, that's $10 less I have to give to a genuine charity, so it's very important to make sure of the actuality of charities.

Well, living in a country which has these rules for public transport... it's never been a problem that I've observed. Seats are given to people who need them, and I have never - and I mean never - seen a scenario such as you describe, with selfish twits claiming to be sick when they aren't, just to get a seat.

Fraud and cheating? What's the worst that happens? Someone goes ahead in a queue or gets a seat when maybe they shouldn't have? But you sound like you're arguing for no one getting that when they actually need it. I know which situation I'd rather have.

 

[Chesterton]

Well, living in a country which has these rules for public transport... it's never been a problem that I've observed. Seats are given to people who need them, and I have never - and I mean never - seen a scenario such as you describe, with selfish twits claiming to be sick when they aren't, just to get a seat.

Oh you already have these as actual laws? Well I guess that makes sense. A colony of prisoners certainly needs strict regulations.

Fraud and cheating? What's the worst that happens? Someone goes ahead in a queue or gets a seat when maybe they shouldn't have?

Yes, and you have a miscarriage that wouldn't have happened if you had that seat you needed. That's probably the worst.

But you sound like you're arguing for no one getting that when they actually need it.

How in the world do I sound to you like the exact opposite of what I said?

 

[Paidiske]

Oh you already have these as actual laws? Well I guess that makes sense. A colony of prisoners certainly needs strict regulations.

You said it jokingly, but I have a theory that many of the differences between American and Australian culture can be explained by our convict-settlement past.

Yes, and you have a miscarriage that wouldn't have happened if you had that seat you needed. That's probably the worst.

Except that's totally not what happens in the real world. There really are enough seats to go around for people who really need them.

How in the world do I sound to you like the exact opposite of what I said?

Because you're arguing against laws giving priority to people who need it.

 

[dreadnought]

In Portugal, they recently passed a law giving "priority" to those who are elderly, disabled, pregnant or have a child under two years old with them. This means that in places of commerce, employees have to help someone in these categories before others.

Businesses are required to put up a sign saying they give priority to these people, and merchants who fail to give priority get fined. There are no special priority lines for these categories of people. They simply go to the front of any line/queue and get waited on first.

What do you think of this law? Should courtesy be legislated like this?

I don't know, I might be tempted to take small children with me wherever I went. Or maybe one of those life-like baby dolls in a stroller.

It would irritate me no end. In my bank once they gave priority to business customers. The rest of us just had to wait till there were no more business customers, before we got waited on.

 

[Chesterton]

You said it jokingly, but I have a theory that many of the differences between American and Australian culture can be explained by our convict-settlement past.

From what I know, the cultural differences aren't very great. Exhibit A: AC/DC.

Except that's totally not what happens in the real world. There really are enough seats to go around for people who really need them.

Maybe you guys have bigger buses.

Because you're arguing against laws giving priority to people who need it.

I'm arguing against letting people break those laws, thereby depriving people who need it.

 

[LaSorcia]

From what I know, the cultural differences aren't very great.

Seriously? Have you never watched Home and Away or Neighbours?

 

[keith99]

I'm having a hard time imaging how this works. How can a person who can walk into a store not be able to stand for a few minutes? I've rarely ever waited in line at any business for more than a few minutes. The population of my city is 3 times that of Portugal's biggest city. I can't imagine my average waiting time is longer than their's, or that of most other American cities.

I've seen lines much longer than just a few minutes. It is one of the reasons I rarely shop at IKEA.

The longest I recall was at a store that manages the lines well, but also has some unique items, Trader Joe's. One year a couple of decades ago I stopped by to get a pumpkin pie for thanksgiving. My mistake was waiting until the wednesday before Thanksgiving. Even with every register open and 2 people at each so one checked and the other bagged then lines were to the back of the store. Even though $1.99 for a pie was a great price the hour plus that I would have been in line was enough to get me to leave.

I can see reasons to let some people in those categories have a chance to shop when they know they will not have to wait in line. But why all the time. Especially why should someone with a young child in tow get a general pass? Near me many supermarkets are jammed from 5 to 7 or so in the evening. It seems to me all the 4 groups generally have teh freedom to shop at any time. OK let them have priority, but only if they are making the minor effort to shop at off peak times.

 

[Chesterton]

Seriously? Have you never watched Home and Away or Neighbours?

I have never. That's why I prefaced the sentence with "from what I know". I know very little. But Bon Scott rules.

 

[Paidiske]

As an Australian, the impression I get is that the cultural differences are very great. At least, my most regular contact with Americans is right here on CF, and they often seem to come from another planet.

 

[Chesterton]

Even though $1.99 for a pie was a great price the hour plus that I would have been in line was enough to get me to leave.

I think the last time I waited an hour for something was at a roller coaster ride at Six Flags, and that was the last time I ever went to an amusement park.

 

[LaSorcia]

At least, my most regular contact with Americans is right here on CF, and they often seem to come from another planet.

Some of us do. We beam down in New Mexico.

 

[bekkilyn]

Some of us do. We beam down in New Mexico.

Scully: Mulder, toads just fell from the sky!
Mulder: I guess their parachutes didn't open.

Trust no one.

 

[zephcom]

In Portugal, they recently passed a law giving "priority" to those who are elderly, disabled, pregnant or have a child under two years old with them. This means that in places of commerce, employees have to help someone in these categories before others.

Businesses are required to put up a sign saying they give priority to these people, and merchants who fail to give priority get fined. There are no special priority lines for these categories of people. They simply go to the front of any line/queue and get waited on first.

What do you think of this law? Should courtesy be legislated like this?

I don't know, I might be tempted to take small children with me wherever I went. Or maybe one of those life-like baby dolls in a stroller.

There shouldn't be the need for that kind of legislation. But one could say that about murder legislation also.

One of the roles of government is to codify behavior in a society so that all will know and abide by the standards of the society. My guess would be that some action or actions by members of the Portugal society triggered the need for this to become law. Certainly if Portugal is experiencing the levels of rudeness, callousness and anger that is currently infecting America, I can understand why the law was passed.

One can either have government in control of one's society or one has anarchy. Generally speaking, anarchy is the worse choice.

 

[LaSorcia]

Certainly if Portugal is experiencing the levels of rudeness, callousness and anger that is currently infecting America,

On the contrary. In the airports for example, dealing with the Portuguese customs and immigration people was a lot more pleasant than dealing with the American ones in NY. The employees at passport control were so rude that I sincerely felt sorry for people for whom this was their first experience of the United States. One person asked for help; an employee herded them along and refused to assist them.

 

[dzheremi]

Braggart.

No.

I'm having a hard time imaging how this works. How can a person who can walk into a store not be able to stand for a few minutes?

Walking is not the same as standing. If your leg muscles are constantly maximally flexed by default due to damaged or malformed nerve pathways from the brain, then generally walking actually gives them a chance to be forced out from that position (though of course you will probably tire more quickly than the average person, simply due to muscle fatigue on account of the hyper-flexed 'natural' state), providing at least a tiny bit of relief, while having to stand makes them cramp up even more than they naturally would because you cannot move them out of that state, it puts a lot of weight on them, and generally makes things much, much worse the longer you are in that state.

I've rarely ever waited in line at any business for more than a few minutes. The population of my city is 3 times that of Portugal's biggest city. I can't imagine my average waiting time is longer than their's, or that of most other American cities.

Just like the liturgy example, this sort of thing is completely irrelevant. If you can do a few minutes or have never had to do more than that, then that's good for you I suppose, but does nothing for anyone else from whom neither of these things might be true. I live in the capital of the most populated state in the union, and it's very rare to find short lines at any public facility of any kind.

Do you walk away from your car after you park?

I fail to see how this would be relevant. If I do so after putting up my disabled parking placard, then I consider the matter to be settled, as does the issuing authority behind said placard, the state government. I am playing by the rules by taking it with me and using it as appropriate. The fact that some people still have a problem with it is really the entire reason why "legislating courtesy" sometimes happens.

But I sometimes do, and I sometimes do not. It depends on where I am going and what kind of terrain and lines I can expect to have to deal with to get to wherever it is I'm intending to go. In the times when people have yelled at me about it, I think it had more to do with the presumed 'disrespect' that I, a younger person, would supposedly be showing to the elderly who really need those spaces, which...okay, fine. They also have placards sometimes, so I don't get it. I'm not in competition with the Greatest Generation over who can go to the store or whatever, so I just sort of shrug and move on.

 

[LaSorcia]

Walking is not the same as standing. If your leg muscles are constantly maximally flexed by default due to damaged or malformed nerve pathways from the brain, then generally walking actually gives them a chance to be forced out from that position (though of course you will probably tire more quickly than the average person, simply due to muscle fatigue on account of the hyper-flexed 'natural' state), providing at least a tiny bit of relief, while having to stand makes them cramp up even more than they naturally would because you cannot move them out of that state, puts a lot of weight on them, and generally makes things much, much worse the longer you are in that state.

Yeah, I have a friend with MS for whom walking is MUCH easier than standing. He sometimes falls down when standing, but not so while walking.

 

[zephcom]

On the contrary. In the airports for example, dealing with the Portuguese customs and immigration people was a lot more pleasant than dealing with the American ones in NY. The employees at passport control were so rude that I sincerely felt sorry for people for whom this was their first experience of the United States. One person asked for help; an employee herded them along and refused to assist them.

I was actually referring to the general population with the rudeness, callousness and anger.

TSA...that's what we call airport security...exist only to remind everyone that Americans are supposed to be afraid, very afraid, of 'the other'. I don't fly.

If nothing else, they should let you request a member of the opposite sex pat you down......

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Here in South Africa, many of these sort of things are already done: Most banks and many pharmacies have dedicated pensioner queues; our domestic flights routinely ask that elderly and people travelling with small children board first; we not only have handicapped parking, but right next to it at many of the larger shopping centres, we have 'Moms & Tots' parking; and as already mentioned, Home Affairs and Hospitals tend to give priority to certain people as well.

I doubt any of this is nationally legislated, but it is locally enforced. Someone that doesn't look like a pensioner, could certainly not use their bank queues; and Mom & Tots parking gets clamped with a release fine, if no carseat in the car. It is really not that different from how a national initiative would anyway have looked.