Legislating Courtesy

[bekkilyn]

How are they going to determine whether or not someone is disabled, or do they only mean certain types of physical disabilities?

 

[LaSorcia]

How are they going to determine whether or not someone is disabled, or do they only mean certain types of physical disabilities?

That wasn't clear by the sign or my brief conversation with a Portuguese person.

 

[dzheremi]

What the OP does mention, is that those who are elderly, disabled, pregnant or have a child under two years old with them get to move to the front of the line (in retail establishments, I presume). I likewise question why people in these categories are in a particular hurry that I'm not in.

Do you really want to know? Because I guarantee you that having to be escorted out of a retail establishment by fire personnel after the retailer calls emergency services because you cannot move after standing too long in their line at a time when carts are not available (due to being stolen) will slow down your precious line significantly more than just letting physically disabled people go ahead of you in the first damn place.

The attitudes being expressed in this thread are very revealing, and unfortunately not in a good way. Christ tells us that whatsoever we do to the least among the brothers, that we do to Him, but I guess that is cancelled if someone is not convinced of another's status as 'least'. Well, is being treated that way by literally everyone in society -- including fellow Christians, apparently -- not proof enough? What more do you all need? I will do whatever it is, though it makes me want to vomit that I should have to.

I am thoroughly disgusted and discouraged. Thank God that we look to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. I hope we lesser people will not hold any of you greater people up in 'line' then, either. And if so, Aiernovi. (I have sinned, forgive me.)

Lord have mercy.

 

[LaSorcia]

Christ tells us that whatsoever we do to the least among the brothers, that we do to Him,

Yes, we should certainly do as Christ says. Hopefully, as Christians, we don't need the government to reiterate what we should already know.

 

[dzheremi]

And yet you see the replies in this thread...

 

[Chesterton]

Do you really want to know?

This is interesting. You start by asking if I really want to know (which seems unnecessary; I wouldn't have asked if I didn't), then, you don't let me know, you don't answer but instead proceed to rant against something you apparently think that I think. What's all that about fires and emergencies?

 

[bekkilyn]

That wasn't clear by the sign or my brief conversation with a Portuguese person.

I'm just thinking of a lot of the hate many disabled people here in the U.S. get for using a disability parking pass without any obvious disabilities, even when they did qualify for the pass.

 

[mama2one]

In Portugal, they recently passed a law giving "priority" to those who are elderly, disabled, pregnant or have a child under two years old with them. give priority to these people, and merchants who fail to give priority get fined. .

reminds me of a tv episode I once saw

one of the characters had kidney disease and was on dialysis
she got special treatment at one place (which she really liked)

so next place she went (restaurant maybe) went up to get seated first and said why

all of a sudden people protested
one person said "I have this, another person I have that"

practically everyone had a disease or something that would qualify them "to go first"

so they didn't get special treatment as practically everyone has something

 

[dzheremi]

This is interesting. You start by asking if I really want to know (which seems unnecessary; I wouldn't have asked if I didn't), then, you don't let me know, you don't answer but instead proceed to rant against something you apparently think that I think. What's all that about fires and emergencies?

You asked why people in those conditions would be in a hurry that you are not in. I answered with an example of why -- because the alternative is worse than you giving up your place in line for someone who needs to get in and out quicker than you do for health reasons. That's precisely why. I did answer your question.

And my 'rant', as you put it, is due to the dehumanizing attitudes expressed in several posts in this thread, including yours.

 

[mama2one]

I have fibromyalgia and some days have a lot of pain which would make standing in a long line pretty hard
(but I look perfectly normal)

I just don't go and do stuff on days not feeling up to it

 

[JackRT]

When I retired I worked part time as the host at a local up scale restaurant. Over a period of about 2 years a man brought his wife to the restaurant in a hospital type gurney. The restauranteur left specific instructions to give them absolute priority even if it meant asking other diners to change tables. No one ever objected.

 

[mama2one]

How are they going to determine whether or not someone is disabled, or do they only mean certain types of physical disabilities?

it may end up being a problem if people need proof from a physician

look what has happened with service animal/companion animals on planes

 

[Chesterton]

You asked why people in those conditions would be in a hurry that you are not in. I answered with an example of why -- because the alternative is worse than you giving up your place in line for someone who needs to get in and out quicker than you do for health reasons. That's precisely why. I did answer your question.

And my 'rant', as you put it, is due to the dehumanizing attitudes expressed in several posts in this thread, including yours.

You didn't answer my question. According to the OP, these are the people who go ahead of everyone else:

1. elderly
2. disabled
3. pregnant or
4. have a child under two years old with them

What are the health reasons they need to get in and out quicker?

 

[LaSorcia]

The restauranteur left specific instructions to give them absolute priority even if it meant asking other diners to change tables. No one ever objected.

I should hope not. That's just decency.

 

[mama2one]

4. have a child under two years old with them

What are the health reasons they need to get in and out quicker?

I don't see someone with a young child "always" needing priority

although when we travelled by plane with our child, the airlines who let us get on first, did appreciate that especially when we were using a car seat and needed extra time

 

[dzheremi]

You didn't answer my question. According to the OP, these are the people who go ahead of everyone else:

1. elderly
2. disabled
3. pregnant or
4. have a child under two years old with them

What are the health reasons they need to get in and out quicker?

The elderly may have the same problems as the disabled with standing and walking or waiting (depending), as may the pregnant (again, depending). I don't know about those with children under two other than the obvious fact that they can be a hassle and slow down any line, as can any of these other types of people.

As to specific diagnoses, these of course will vary from person to person, and if you're not their doctor they're unlikely to come up in everyday conversation. I do not share my health history with random strangers in line at the grocery store, but maybe that's just me.

I'm not sure what more you're looking for.

 

[Chesterton]

The elderly may have the same problems as the disabled with standing and walking or waiting (depending), as may the pregnant (again, depending). I don't know about those with children under two other than the obvious fact that they can be a hassle and slow down any line, as can any of these other types of people.

Yeah, it will vary from person to person. It's just that in my parish there are "very" pregnant ladies, and people with small children who manage to stand for an 1 1/2 hour liturgy, which is a lot longer than is usually spent waiting to make a retail purchase, so I wouldn't have thought that was a big problem.

As to specific diagnoses, these of course will vary from person to person, and if you're not their doctor they're unlikely to come up in everyday conversation.

That's a good point. As with handicapped parking tags on the car that require a doctor's approval, people who can't wait could also get a little badge or something to wear on their shirt.

 

[dzheremi]

Yeah, it will vary from person to person. It's just that in my parish there are "very" pregnant ladies, and people with small children who manage to stand for an 1 1/2 hour liturgy, which is a lot longer than is usually spent waiting to make a retail purchase, so I wouldn't have thought that was a big problem.

I'm neither a pregnant lady nor a person with small children, and my church's liturgy is twice as long as yours (apparently). None of that really makes a difference as to whether or not I can stand for the usual amount of time that we do in worship, because I can't. The two are not really related. Since it varies so much from person to person, you can't really look at people you know who can do it and use them as a gauge, though I suppose it makes sense why you would. We can only go by what we see unless we ourselves are experiencing it, right? But unfortunately it doesn't work out that way in reality. I would love to be able to say that I get some kind of special 'boost' by virtue of being in liturgy, but I'm still in my same old body, and it still doesn't want to cooperate, no differently than at the grocery store or the doctor's office or wherever. So we have workarounds there, too (e.g., I don't line up to venerate the gospel and cross, but abouna will bring them to me for veneration, because he understands I'm not choosing to sit it out).

That's a good point. As with handicapped parking tags on the car that require a doctor's approval, people who can't wait could also get a little badge or something to wear on their shirt.

That's a good system, I guess. You'd want to have something that both holds people accountable for abuses of the rules and also lets others know that this person will need to make use of the courtesy system or whatever it's called. I would not mind something like that, if we were to have a law like this in the United States, as I too have experienced harassment from people who for some reason think I shouldn't be allowed to park in disabled parking and aren't shy about telling me so. (I'm not sure how they reached that conclusion, but I guess that's immaterial, as the placard is there either way.)

 

[pgp_protector]

Legislating Courtesy will lead to problems one way or another.

First thing I though of though was Dr Who's Happy Robot episode.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Smile_(TV_story)

 

[Paidiske]

But more seriously, the OP doesn't mention seating priority, but I wonder what difference a seat location would make for women in different stages of pregnancy?

Well, my pregnancy wasn't typical - I was very sick, losing lots of blood, risk of miscarriage - but being able to sit on a train or bus rather than stand for a long trip wasn't just convenience, it was the difference between being able to make the trip or not.

Yeah, it will vary from person to person. It's just that in my parish there are "very" pregnant ladies, and people with small children who manage to stand for an 1 1/2 hour liturgy, which is a lot longer than is usually spent waiting to make a retail purchase, so I wouldn't have thought that was a big problem.

I can remember having to sit down halfway through the Great Thanksgiving of our liturgy, which probably runs to more like ten minutes, because otherwise I would have fainted. Even pregnancy isn't a one-size-fits-all experience. Is it really so terrible to trust that if someone claims they need a bit of extra support, that that might actually be true, and give it to them?

A medical tag might be one way to manage it for people who can't manage to be courteous without "proof" of the need.