Legalism

[EastCoastRemnant]

So when it's convenient for NT Christians to be under this new covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8, they spout it as their freedom from the bondage from the OT system, but when pointed out that it then makes us part of the house of Israel and therefore subject to the OT Decalogue, they deny it for them... which is it? You guys spend so much time denying clearly given scripture and contradicting yourselves, I'm surprised you can agree on other aspects of the Word..... oh wait, you can't do that either. The consequence of rebellion...

 

[Raeneske]

Because you simply reject LK 24:44 as true.

bugkiller

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I agree with what Jesus is saying here. I disagree that this is referring to Matthew 5 however. See my post to BOB S above.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

These scriptures are no saying what you're implying. You appear to be stacking a word game. Gotta be kidding.
No it's not.......... all false.......shameful

What is shameful Crib is that your accusations of "stacking a word game" is what your own denomination has come out in support of. In his book A Pentecostal Hermeneutic for the Twenty First Century, Kenneth Archer states that the method used by Pentecostals, called the Bible Reading Method was adopted from proof texting as a way to gain understanding on doctrinal matters. Seems you are out of step with recognized Biblical interpretation methods.

 

[Travis93]

Luke 24:44 means Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses by doing it since he had to be sinless, and that he fulfilled messianic prophesy found in the prophets such as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and psalms like Psalm 22 with details like his hands and feet being pierced and his garments parted. It has nothing to do with ending the law, otherwise why are the apostles keeping feasts, going to the temple, and quoting the scriptures time and again afterward? Consider this verse in Acts, look at what they are falsely accusing Stephen of.
Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law.

 

[bugkiller]

So when it's convenient for NT Christians to be under this new covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8, they spout it as their freedom from the bondage from the OT system, but when pointed out that it then makes us part of the house of Israel and therefore subject to the OT Decalogue, they deny it for them... which is it? You guys spend so much time denying clearly given scripture and contradicting yourselves, I'm surprised you can agree on other aspects of the Word..... oh wait, you can't do that either. The consequence of rebellion...

It doesn't make us part of the house of Israel. Read Acts.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

I agree with what Jesus is saying here. I disagree that this is referring to Matthew 5 however. See my post to BOB S above.

Then you really don't agree with what the verse says. sorry

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Luke 24:44 means Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses by doing it since he had to be sinless, and that he fulfilled messianic prophesy found in the prophets such as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and psalms like Psalm 22 with details like his hands and feet being pierced and his garments parted. It has nothing to do with ending the law, otherwise why are the apostles keeping feasts, going to the temple, and quoting the scriptures time and again afterward? Consider this verse in Acts, look at what they are falsely accusing Stephen of.
Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law.

It has everything to do with changing the covenants which does away with the law.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

It has everything to do with changing the covenants which does away with the law.

bugkiller

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant I will make with the house of Israel; after those days saith the LORD, I will put my law on their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Sounds like the opposite of doing away with the law to me. Let's look at some prophesies so we can get an idea of the future, and why doing away with the law makes Moses and several prophets out to be liars.

Zechariah 14:16-19 says all nations will come to keep the Feast of Tabernacles once Jerusalem is restored. This makes sense, as Leviticus 23:41 says that the feast is a statute forever. Was this a false prophesy?

Isaiah 66:23 says all flesh will worship according to new moons and sabbaths. Naturally, after all the Sabbath is declared eternal in Exodus 31:16-17. Was this a false prophesy?

Isaiah 2:3 and Micah 4:2 both prophesy of a time when all the nations will go to Jerusalem to learn how to follow the law and serve God properly. Was this a false prophesy?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

First, I'm not here for a debate. But Christ is speaking about the 10 Commandments being fulfilled in Matthew 5.

So ?
We don't deny the law was fulfilled.
Who
Who
Who told us ?
Who told you ?

 

[Cribstyl]

What is shameful Crib is that your accusations of "stacking a word game" is what your own denomination has come out in support of. In his book A Pentecostal Hermeneutic for the Twenty First Century, Kenneth Archer states that the method used by Pentecostals, called the Bible Reading Method was adopted from proof texting as a way to gain understanding on doctrinal matters. Seems you are out of step with recognized Biblical interpretation methods.

Rewind. You presented these scriptures along with these comments.

But Crib... we are the children of Israel through adoption...

Romans 9:4-7
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

What's shameful is your abuse of the word "adoption" from these scriptures because it's speaking about is when He adopted them in Egypt. Either you're naïve or deceptive. I call it a word game. At the end of the day, you wont apologize or admit to misleading other law grubbers.

 

[Bob S]

First, I'm not here for a debate. But Christ is speaking about the 10 Commandments being fulfilled in Matthew 5. The problem with making this the law of Moses is that you force the Scriptures to contradict themselves when you say that. Let me try once more.



Look first at this verse:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This plainly says Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Now, look at Matthew 5 again.

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Either the law of commandments contained in ordinances was abolished, or it was not. Ephesians is clear, it says it was. So then it cannot be the law contained in ordinances Jesus was talking about in Matthew 5. If fulfil in this passage means "abolish even the law of commandments contained in ordinances" then Jesus contradicted Himself. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law (defining law here as the law of commandments contained in ordinances), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to abolish the law of commandments contained in ordinances." That is 100% a contradiction. Therefore, first we must not redefine fulfil to mean abolish at the cross. And second, we must realize the law spoken of here, is not the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

I would suggest you read Paul's account of the 10 commandments before writing anymore posts like your last post. I believe you will indeed find that Jesus was speaking about Torah in Matt 5. Paul was referring to Torah in Eph 2
2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory,(the 10 commandments) so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Here is the plain fact that it was the 10 commandments plus the remainder of Torah that Jesus was referring to in Matt5. Either you believe Paul, the ambassador of Jesus or you deny the New Testament (new covenant).

The Israelites were given the 10 commandments as their guide. Paul tells us the the gift Jesus left with us, the Holy Spirit , is the guide for Christians. How could you deny that? We have the law of love written on our hearts not 613 laws given only to Israel. The plan of salvation is so very simple, but some try to make it so hard by demanding we live by a set of rules that have indeed been abrogated. The 10 transitory(temporary) laws have been abrogated as you can plainly read in red above. So easy yet some make it so hard, too bad.

 

[bugkiller]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant I will make with the house of Israel; after those days saith the LORD, I will put my law on their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Sounds like the opposite of doing away with the law to me. Let's look at some prophesies so we can get an idea of the future, and why doing away with the law makes Moses and several prophets out to be liars.

Sure when you delete 2/3 of the sentence so it can mean what you desire.

Zechariah 14:16-19 says all nations will come to keep the Feast of Tabernacles once Jerusalem is restored. This makes sense, as Leviticus 23:41 says that the feast is a statute forever. Was this a false prophesy?

Just who is Lev 23:41 addressed to? Do you really mean everyone will come to keep the Fest of Tabernacles? Do you understand the logistic problem of such a thing?

Isaiah 66:23 says all flesh will worship according to new moons and sabbaths. Naturally, after all the Sabbath is declared eternal in Exodus 31:16-17. Was this a false prophesy?

No it doesn't say that at all. It says all flesh will worship every day and nothing about the Sabbath.

You should read from v 13 through 17 for a better understanding. It isn't prophesy either.

Isaiah 2:3 and Micah 4:2 both prophesy of a time when all the nations will go to Jerusalem to learn how to follow the law and serve God properly. Was this a false prophesy?

What exactly do you mean by all nations? Do you really mean every one on the planet?

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Do you really mean everyone will come to keep the Fest of Tabernacles? Do you understand the logistic problem of such a thing?
What exactly do you mean by all nations? Do you really mean every one on the planet?

bugkiller

It lines right up with Revelation.
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring glory and honour unto it.
Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring glory and honour of the nations into it.
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keep in mind according to Revelation 22:16 New Jerusalem will be about 1500 miles length, width, and height. I think we will fit.

 

[Bob S]

It lines right up with Revelation.
Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring glory and honour unto it.
Revelation 21:26 And they shall bring glory and honour of the nations into it.
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keep in mind according to Revelation 22:16 New Jerusalem will be about 1500 miles length, width, and height. I think we will fit.

If you believe that the commandments are Torah then no one will have to worry about Jerusalem being large enough. No one will be their except Jesus. No one was able to do His commandments and that includes the few that are now trying.