Left Behind a superstition? Armageddon a myth?

[SarahsKnight]

So, I just found this:


Revelation Explained - Part 1



I had recently heard the idea that Revelation is actually NOT about some end of the world thing where believers go to an upward Heaven once and for all and unbelievers got Hell once and for all and that's where timeless eternity begins (and I find eternity pertaining to both the saved and unsaved nowhere spelled out in the Bible myself, but that's another story), but instead some vague idea about how things changed in the world's relation to God with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 or something. I didn't give it any thought, then, but now I want to study this. To see if, once again, popular theology might just be in the wrong. I mean, even back in the day when I just accepted whatever my church taught without self-study or question, I always thought there was something a little shady about the Left Behind movies, perhaps too ... sensational, for lack of a better term, and now it's time to begin a journey to hopefully find out.

After all, by itself, tradition and orthodoxy doesn't make it the truth. And everyone's got some measure of Scripture and logic and Greek word study to support their theological stances. And besides, it's time I got off of the conditional immortality horse for a while and moved on to another theological subject.

Wish me luck (or rather, more appropriately, understanding)?


__________________

EDIT: Know that I am a total newbie on this one. I don't have any evidence to support or deny the typical theory of Revelation being about the Rature, the Tribulation, and the end of the word as of yet, other than the obvious, upfront observations one can make, such as, well if Revelation ISN'T actually about the end of the world, then what's all this stuff about the Great White Throne Judgment and the description of the new heaven and earth at the end? Stuff like that.

Therefore, while I know this will easily spark debate, I still ask anyone with a view about Revelation to give their input that they think might be helpful to a newbie like me. I put it here in the singles section since I believe we here are pretty good about keeping the peace and tolerating each other's theologies.

 

[KingLV]

mankind marches on

 

[Saucy]

Yeah I know several people who think Revelation is about the Roman invasion of AD 70, but what kind of revelation was it when the book was written AFTER the invasion? Why all the cryptic visions about something that already happened?

It also speaks of seven different church ages in which we are the last, the church of Laodicia (which were indeed different churches at the time) AND the return of Israel, which laid dormant for thousands of years until the Jews returned in 1948. Jesus said that generation would not pass away before He returned.

I believe we are in the last days of the last days because that generation is now in their 70s and the signs are showing in the sun, moon (blood moon tetrads), and all the other things Christ said would happen in this time. So it's compelling enough for me to think maybe some of it has been happening over the centuries, but it's all coming to pass right now.

 

[keith99]

Yeah I know several people who think Revelation is about the Roman invasion of AD 70, but what kind of revelation was it when the book was written AFTER the invasion? Why all the cryptic visions about something that already happened?

It also speaks of seven different church ages in which we are the last, the church of Laodicia (which were indeed different churches at the time) AND the return of Israel, which laid dormant for thousands of years until the Jews returned in 1948. Jesus said that generation would not pass away before He returned.

I believe we are in the last days of the last days because that generation is now in their 70s and the signs are showing in the sun, moon (blood moon tetrads), and all the other things Christ said would happen in this time. So it's compelling enough for me to think maybe some of it has been happening over the centuries, but it's all coming to pass right now.

The idea of 7 ages is NOT what Revelation says it is how some have chosen to interpret it.

Very different things.

 

[Saucy]

Daniel talks about a scroll to be hidden and it won't be reveal until the time of the end. So there are things that have been hidden, which goes against the argument of some that the rapture and end times are a modern theology and somehow wrong because it isn't a centuries old tradition. So knowing some knowledge won't be revealed until later, when the end comes and people start having visions, etc

My point in reference to your post is there are things people have realized over time. They have studied the different church ages and it fits! Like, how can you better describe the current culture we have right now to the church of Laodicia?

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

 

[dmpeace]

Scripture is not myth. Jesus talked of a literal heaven and a literal hell often. Hebrews 9:27 says "Its appointed for man once to die then judgment." "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", for Christians anyway.

A full Preterist view think all prophesy was fulfilled in the 1st century and its a heretical one. For one there hasn't been the great white throne judgment yet nor the resurrection of the dead. Satan and the unbelievers and the second death hasn't bean cast into the lake of fireyet.Jesus often spoke of hell has eternal punishment so there is no misinterpreting any of that nor making it mythical.

 

[SnowyMacie]

So, I just found this:


Revelation Explained - Part 1



I had recently heard the idea that Revelation is actually NOT about some end of the world thing where believers go to an upward Heaven once and for all and unbelievers got Hell once and for all and that's where timeless eternity begins (and I find eternity pertaining to both the saved and unsaved nowhere spelled out in the Bible myself, but that's another story), but instead some vague idea about how things changed in the world's relation to God with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 or something. I didn't give it any thought, then, but now I want to study this. To see if, once again, popular theology might just be in the wrong. I mean, even back in the day when I just accepted whatever my church taught without self-study or question, I always thought there was something a little shady about the Left Behind movies, perhaps too ... sensational, for lack of a better term, and now it's time to begin a journey to hopefully find out.

After all, by itself, tradition and orthodoxy doesn't make it the truth. And everyone's got some measure of Scripture and logic and Greek word study to support their theological stances. And besides, it's time I got off of the conditional immortality horse for a while and moved on to another theological subject.

Wish me luck (or rather, more appropriately, understanding)?


__________________

EDIT: Know that I am a total newbie on this one. I don't have any evidence to support or deny the typical theory of Revelation being about the Rature, the Tribulation, and the end of the word as of yet, other than the obvious, upfront observations one can make, such as, well if Revelation ISN'T actually about the end of the world, then what's all this stuff about the Great White Throne Judgment and the description of the new heaven and earth at the end? Stuff like that.

Therefore, while I know this will easily spark debate, I still ask anyone with a view about Revelation to give their input that they think might be helpful to a newbie like me. I put it here in the singles section since I believe we here are pretty good about keeping the peace and tolerating each other's theologies.

Revelation is written in a style of literature called "Apocalyptic Literature." Daniel and Ezekiel have this style of writing as well. It's heavily symbolic and metaphorical. One of the most important symbols used is numerology, the use of numbers to represent quality or attributes rather than quantity. You've probably known the Bible is full of this for years without realizing it. 3 is divine perfection (trinity, Jesus raised after three days, three major feasts, three year old animals were sacrificed), 6 = imperfection, or man, or evil. 7 is completeness (7 churches, 7 bowls, 7 days in creation), 12 = governmental perfection or Israel or God's chosen people (12 tribes, 12 apostles...), 10/100/1,000 ="complete quantity". This explains 70x7. We're supposed to completely and totally forgive forever.
Here's the thing about Revelation, God's people are right in the middle of it. I've yet to find anywhere in Revelation that says God's people aren't the middle of it. The message of Revelation is this: It may look like utter chaos and that the Beast (Nero, I'll explain that in a second) is winning, but God is ultimately more powerful and in control. It's not a prophesy about the end of the world, it's a coded message of hope (the last few chapters) to basically slaves.
Here's how Nero is the beast: Number of the beast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
I can't think of what book "meeting in the air" is mentioned off the top of my head, and I don't have time to look it up. It's the same word that's used when the Roman Emperor would come into a city. The residents of that city would go out to greet the Emperor outside the city and welcome him into it by going back into town with him. It's a jab at Roman tradition. We're not going to meet the Lord of Heaven of Earth, Jesus in the air and go off somewhere else. He's going to come back, and we're going to welcome this world's King at his return.

I'm the opposite of you, I grew up with this interpretation of Revelation. I've read Left Behind, and think they're entertaining, but I do not think that is what is going to happen.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Like, how can you better describe the current culture we have right now to the church of Laodicia?

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

1)What goes around comes around.
2) It's last church, so it's the last age. We're really anxious for the end of the world to happen so we're going to read into things and say this is out

 

[Gnarwhal]

Matt said everything that needs to be said. The rapture, and all of that terrible excuse for "theology" known as Left Behind is pure, unadulterated fable.

Here's a great article that's relevant to this conversation:

I'm sorry Left Behind fans.

But, there is no such thing as the rapture.

Of course, you couldn't tell me this when I was in high school because I was head over heals in love with biblical prophecy. Nothing else mattered. I was utterly convinced that the book of Revelation was a road map to the future and Jack Van Impe was the prophet who could unlock the apocalyptic map for me. I even had the Jack Van Impe Prophecy Bible, leather bound and color coordinated to let me know exactly what each verse prophesied. So sure was I that the rapture would happen at any moment, that I believed it to be my mission from God to scare let everyone around me know that the end was nigh so they would not be left behind.

Nobody Is Getting Left Behind (Because the Rapture Is Never, Ever Going to Happen) | Zack Hunt

 

[Saucy]

So does Jesus still come down and we meet Him in the clouds? The whole rapture idea comes from the bible and the idea of meeting Christ in the clouds. The bible describes this clearly, so it's tough for me to understand why people are saying it won't happen.

 

[Gnarwhal]

So does Jesus still come down and we meet Him in the clouds? The whole rapture idea comes from the bible and the idea of meeting Christ in the clouds. The bible describes this clearly, so it's tough for me to understand why people are saying it won't happen.

Yes, but that's at the parousia, the Second Coming. Nobody gets whisked away to another location in the cosmos. Paul was using very specific language that his audience in Thessoloniki would understand, essentially he's describing an event that would be as grand (or grander) as when a Roman dignitary visits a province of the empire. Traditionally in Roman culture, when such a person visited a city, like Ephesus for example, the entire town of Ephesus would empty out and greet the dignitary at the port of Ephesus and welcome them to the city. However, the caveat that most proponents of the rapture leave out, is that the citizens would then escort the dignitary back into their city in a big celebratory manner.

So Paul is saying when Christ returns, sure we'll greet him in the air, but we'll escort him as King into his rightful kingdom. Concurrent with this will be the completion of the restoration of heaven and earth and the emergence of the new creation.

 

[dmpeace]

Matt said everything that needs to be said. The rapture, and all of that terrible excuse for "theology" known as Left Behind is pure, unadulterated fable.

Here's a great article that's relevant to this conversation:



Nobody Is Getting Left Behind (Because the Rapture Is Never, Ever Going to Happen)[bless and do not curse]|[bless and do not curse]Zack Hunt

I haven't studied much about the rapture or not. But boy I sure am glad you added that article to clear everything up. That was so enlightening and from the reliable and always honest liberal huffingtonpost no less. I'm sure Zack Hunt has spent much time reading and studying scripture. This article is relevant to not a single thing.

 

[Tzaousios]

So does Jesus still come down and we meet Him in the clouds? The whole rapture idea comes from the bible and the idea of meeting Christ in the clouds. The bible describes this clearly, so it's tough for me to understand why people are saying it won't happen.

This is usually what is thought in Protestant traditions where Rapturism is held up as doctrine or even dogma. However, when one investigates how the Church has understood eschatology from the beginning, the concept is largely absent.


A select group of radical Protestants in the nineteenth century determined that "Rapture" is "what the Bible plainly says" and set the course that many would follow thereafter instead of beginning with how the Church has understood it.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I haven't studied much about the rapture or not. But boy I sure am glad you added that article to clear everything up. That was so enlightening and from the reliable and always honest liberal huffingtonpost no less. I'm sure Zack Hunt has spent much time reading and studying scripture. This article is relevant to not a single thing.

You're conservative bias is showing.

I've studied eschatology for about six years now, and he's spot on. Your approval/disapproval of the article, however, is of no consequence to me.

 

[Tzaousios]

I haven't studied much about the rapture or not. But boy I sure am glad you added that article to clear everything up. That was so enlightening and from the reliable and always honest liberal huffingtonpost no less. I'm sure Zack Hunt has spent much time reading and studying scripture. This article is relevant to not a single thing.

Politicking not withstanding, I believe the article originally appeared on the author's personal blog. The Huffington Post picked it up later for whatever reason.

 

[Saucy]

Yes, but that's at the parousia, the Second Coming. Nobody gets whisked away to another location in the cosmos. Paul was using very specific language that his audience in Thessoloniki would understand, essentially he's describing an event that would be as grand (or grander) as when a Roman dignitary visits a province of the empire. Traditionally in Roman culture, when such a person visited a city, like Ephesus for example, the entire town of Ephesus would empty out and greet the dignitary at the port of Ephesus and welcome them to the city. However, the caveat that most proponents of the rapture leave out, is that the citizens would then escort the dignitary back into their city in a big celebratory manner.

So Paul is saying when Christ returns, sure we'll greet him in the air, but we'll escort him as King into his rightful kingdom. Concurrent with this will be the completion of the restoration of heaven and earth and the emergence of the new creation.

From what I read in the bible, that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, but when Christ returns, it talks about Him stepping down onto the Mount of Olives and splitting it and behind Him is all the armies of Heaven. Do we meet Christ in the air and return to earth with Him?

It seems to me the bible describes the Holy Spirit leaving the earth before the tribulation and what about those of us are have been sealed with the Holy Spirit? We go with Him, meet Christ in the clouds, have our feast and return at the end to defeat the anti-Christ.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Do we meet Christ in the air and return to earth with Him?

Precisely.

It seems to me the bible describes the Holy Spirit leaving the earth before the tribulation and what about those of us are have been sealed with the Holy Spirit? We go with Him, meet Christ in the clouds, have our feast and return at the end to defeat the anti-Christ.

The thing to understand, like Matt said, is that Revelation (and also smaller portions of other books like The Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 (coinciding, also with Mark 13 and John 21) are intentionally written in a highly symbolic language. We often note how the apostles didn't quite get Christ's point when he spoke in parables, well he had good reason for doing so. The same goes for the apostles when writing these apocalyptic texts. John, the author of Revelation, said some pretty incriminating things when he wrote Revelation, things that would have meant instant death had the Romans interpreted it properly.

So he wrote it using the apocalyptic literary form so that if it fell into Roman hands, they culturally would have not read what the intended recipients would have read because they (the Romans) weren't informed as to the nature of apocalyptic literature like the Jews and early Christians were.

 

[Lord Of The Forest]

SarahsKnight, I applaud you for beginning this quest into the Apocalypse; you have now discovered another eschatology than Futurism exists.

If I may make a recommendation, I think Revelation: Four Views may be quite helpful to you. It is a commentary which goes through each verse and gives each of the four views' interpretations, those four views being Futurist, Preterist, Historicist, and Idealist. The link I gave is for the revised second edition in paperback, but the older edition is in hardcover and is cheaper if you're buying on the used market.


Kudos to Matt's post. I contend that apocalyptic literature is one of the among least understood genres of literature in the Bible. It's not a genre that was ever meant to be taken very literally.

A full Preterist view think all prophesy was fulfilled in the 1st century and its a heretical one.

That's why not very many people lock themselves into a full preterist viewpoint.

Jesus often spoke of hell has eternal punishment so there is no misinterpreting any of that nor making it mythical.

If only it were that simple. But it isn't. And discussing this is against CF rules, so there it is.

 

[Saucy]

So where are we now in terms of prophecy of the end? What has been fulfilled and what are we waiting to happen?



(PS, I consider myself a student of all, so I'm still learning. Thank you for explaining)

 

[Nanopants]

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