Leaving LCMS

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but it has to do with the Office of Public Ministry. A few pastors in our synod (some who came over from LCMS) have taken a different stance on who should be 'called', and at least one congregation (that I know of) has left the synod, and one Pastor (that I know of) has been suspended. It's a pretty complicated situation, and one that really saddens me as I have friends who are on the other side of the 'fence' in this, so to speak, and because it is causing divisions within the synod. If you google "office of public ministry and ELS" you will probably come up with details.

That's always hard. My family has friends that all attended a WELS church back before the WELS split from LCMS, and they switched to an LCMS church. While they are still friends, there's always a bit of awkwardness if the talks get 'round to church stuff.

 

[DaRev]

Sometimes I feel like Lutherans get way too picayune about minutia.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

The Roman Catholic Church has 1.1 billion members and has not really had a major split. Except maybe post vatican II old catholics. Maybe we should take a page from the Roman Catholic Church. They're not changing. Take for instance the Swedish Lutheran Church; they just allowed same sex marriage. Lutheranism is so divided. Even the divisions have divisions.
Lutheran Church
LWF(95%) Confessional Lutherans 5%
ILC CELC
Why do we just keep dividing and dwindling? The RCC isn't.

 

[RadMan]

How much more fragmented can synods like LCMS, ELS, WELS and LCC get? The amount of "breal away" groups in these synods is getting alarming. They disagree on anything or everything. Wouldn't be long till each congregation will be it's own synod. Just joking but I think I remember posting a few months ago that the "break aways" are multiplying exponentially in reference to our past Lutheran history. Now it's not just between liberal and conservative but also between the laity and clergy and the Office of the Keys and as LutherChick mentions; who is rightly called for the public ministry? .

 

[filosofer]

The Roman Catholic Church has 1.1 billion members and has not really had a major split. Except maybe post vatican II old catholics. Maybe we should take a page from the Roman Catholic Church. They're not changing. Take for instance the Swedish Lutheran Church; they just allowed same sex marriage. Lutheranism is so divided. Even the divisions have divisions.
Lutheran Church
LWF(95%) Confessional Lutherans 5%
ILC CELC
Why do we just keep dividing and dwindling? The RCC isn't.

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]
Part of the problem is that the RCC adapts by allowing in many practices and teachings that conflict with the official stance. So in Guatemala, for instance, when the people leave the mountains they leave their idols, etc. at the edge of the jungle, come into the RCC church, worship, then when they leave they pick up their idols of the former religion and go back to their everyday life. Syncretism is the word that applies.

That is not what we "believe, teach, and confess".

[/FONT]

 

[LutheranChick]

How much more fragmented can synods like LCMS, ELS, WELS and LCC get? The amount of "breal away" groups in these synods is getting alarming. They disagree on anything or everything. Wouldn't be long till each congregation will be it's own synod. Just joking but I think I remember posting a few months ago that the "break aways" are multiplying exponentially in reference to our past Lutheran history. Now it's not just between liberal and conservative but also between the laity and clergy and the Office of the Keys and as LutherChick mentions; who is rightly called for the public ministry? .

It is sad, but I believe it is Satan hard at work. Look at what we believe, teach and confess - strict adherence to the Scriptures, which I think makes for very solid believers. Of couse Satan would want to tear this apart.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Also, one thing I noticed about just the individual Catholic churches in my area, they all don't believe the same things. They just don't have different "synods". If you ask one RCC if there is a purgatory, they might tell you yes while another RCC will tell you no.

I think part of the reason we're a dwindling membership is that people are falling away because of what THEY want in terms of religion. The bible even says that people will fall away towards the end, so churches who boast of their big numbers really don't impress me all that much.

 

[DaSeminarian]

How much more fragmented can synods like LCMS, ELS, WELS and LCC get? The amount of "breal away" groups in these synods is getting alarming. They disagree on anything or everything. Wouldn't be long till each congregation will be it's own synod. Just joking but I think I remember posting a few months ago that the "break aways" are multiplying exponentially in reference to our past Lutheran history. Now it's not just between liberal and conservative but also between the laity and clergy and the Office of the Keys and as LutherChick mentions; who is rightly called for the public ministry? .

I am in a seminary class right now that is going over the period in the 18th and 19th centuries when the Lutheran church began to root itself in the American culture. There were far more synods back then and many of them merged together over the past 150 years to become the synods we have today. Yes there is some infighting on a few issues and neither side wants to give in to the other for fear that the group who wins will have ultimate control.

Right now the moderates are controlling the direction of the synod and the conservatives are eery about the moderates because they might take a liberal direction. The Liberals don't like the moderates because of the fear that they will take a conservative direction. The balance of power is in in the moderate's camp and unless a candidate from either side can convince the majority of voters to their way of thinking it will stay in the moderates camp.

Right now I would say that if Kieschnick opts not to run again that William Diekelmann will be the most likely candidate.

 

[RadMan]

Also, one thing I noticed about just the individual Catholic churches in my area, they all don't believe the same things. They just don't have different "synods". If you ask one RCC if there is a purgatory, they might tell you yes while another RCC will tell you no.

I think part of the reason we're a dwindling membership is that people are falling away because of what THEY want in terms of religion. The bible even says that people will fall away towards the end, so churches who boast of their big numbers really don't impress me all that much.

"IF" it is the ends times. Don't you think that maybe many people during Luther's time thought just the same thing? With so many new protestant denoms that grew from it?

I talked almost 2 hr's with my son yesterday about "end times" and I just can't see it. I don't see anything different in this part of history than any other time.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think in terms of it always being end times, simply because we do not know the hour...

 

[DaSeminarian]

"IF" it is the ends times. Don't you think that maybe many people during Luther's time thought just the same thing? With so many new protestant denoms that grew from it?

I talked almost 2 hr's with my son yesterday about "end times" and I just can't see it. I don't see anything different in this part of history than any other time.

Curious, what angle does your son take with the end times? Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Post-trib? Amillenialist?

 

[RadMan]

An amalgam of from many different sources. Many of the aspects you've mentioned, plus Cabalistic, ancient writings, astrology, scientific anomalies, references from other religions, etc.

I'm looking for some of his web sites that he developed. Can't seem to find them right now.

 

[DaRev]

Hebrews1:1-2, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

We're already in the "Last Days" and have been since the crucifixion and resurrection.

 

[jcj3803]

I think part of the reason we're a dwindling membership is that people are falling away because of what THEY want in terms of religion.

True. But OTOH, can / should one attend a church if one does not agree with all their teachings? I'm not aiming this at anybody, but can you really be a Baptist if you like to have a beer? Can you be LCMS if you think the first 12 chapters of Genesis are allegory? Can you be RCC if you use birth control?

Where is the line between "fighting the fight" and being a hypocrite by remaining a member?

 

[DaRev]

There are some people who view the Church as a "right" rather than a "privilige."

 

[searcher1]

can / should one attend a church if one does not agree with all their teachings?

you can but I think you will be very unhappy...I found that out a long time ago but stayed ...my frustration is worse and my anger is too.

Where is the line between "fighting the fight" and being a hypocrite by remaining a member?

I don't know but I feel like a hippocrite when I am in a church that I feel is wrong

 

[rockytrails]

by becoming a member of a els congregation perhaps instead of finding that you have left the lc-ms you will have instead found that you have returned to the original beliefs of the lc-ms.

After all are you really leaving the lc
-ms or have they themselves left the lc-ms?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Apparently not everyone can see these huge problems within the LCMS. Most members are content, and you of all people, being an LCMS pastor, should not try to make things seem worse than what they really are!

We just had a convention.
We do every 3 years.

EVERY congregation had an equal voice in selecting a pastoral and a lay delegate (they are in EQUAL numbers at the convention).

As long as it is in keeping with the Confessions, the Convention has great authority.

It re-elected Kieschnick by a large margin.
NO ONE forced anyone's vote.


If a layperson or even pastor concludes that the pastors and people of the LCMS are overwhelmingly wrong in policy and administrative issues and this is great enough that they cannot continue to worship or minister in a congregation affiliated with such, they can leave. I understand that after every federal election in the USA, there are a few hundred Americans that leave the USA - determined they cannot live thier lives in the USA at all. I wonder how many return? I guess it's that old "Love it or leave it!" mentality.....


I'm new to the LCMS, but I'm already aware that while the theology is the same, other things vary from congregation to congregation. I visted several before I eventually "connected" to the congregation I eventually joined. One need not leave the theology of the LCMS to leave things one doesn't personally agree with.


And I'm very reminded of a saying of my father (a minister): "Some spend their whole lives looking for greener grass -never finding it, others work to make the grass greener where they are - sometimes helping to make it so." And, "Ask not what your church can do for you, ask what you can do for your church."


I pray that God blesses all our journeys.... But in mine, I never expect everyone to agree with me or do things as I like - the church is bigger than me, myself and I.



Blessings, my brother.....



Pax



- Josiah





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[jcj3803]

And I'm very reminded of a saying of my father (a minister): "Some spend their whole lives looking for greener grass -never finding it, others work to make the grass greener where they are - sometimes helping to make it so."

.

A wise quote and I confess I have been guilty of looking for greener grass.

What do you do if they tear up the grass and lay concrete though? Paint it green? (Just a rhetorical question...)

 

[DaRev]

There are situations though where the more green grass you lay down, the quicker folks are to tear it up.