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Just dusting off my sandals - I won't be discussing this with you either.No I'm sorry you are offended by my signature. I don't view abortion is "murdering" a "baby". That's sensationalist. But that has nothing to do with the OP's topic at hand so I will not discuss it here with you.
Good for you Seajoy! The signature is demonic.Just dusting off my sandals - I won't be discussing this with you either.
Well, people choose that what is close to their liking....
But back to leaving the ELCA...I'm still disappointed people are doing it even though I understand. For now, I'll squarely stand with the ELCA, even though what used to be my home church will not.
I view this to be about as morally compelling as vegetarianism. It's like eco-terrorism, it just doesn't hold water. The soul doesn't enter the body of a fetus that has no brain and is indistinguishable from a chicken at the same age. If it is a sin then killing chickens must be a sin too. You couldn't tell the difference if you saw them side by side.
As to hate and compassion, the proof is in the putting, public child-care services for living children are almost non-existent in the red states where abortion would be illegal if they could make it so, but in the blue states which keep abortion legal, child care services are abounding. I think it says just as much about how you deal with the living, and what the conservative red states have to say is that children don't really matter.
Conservatives just don't think about the consequences to young people. I know first hand, my birth destroyed both my parents lives. They were WAY to young to have a child and I ended up being raised by my grandparents. But of the three of us, it was by far the hardest on me. I feel that if I had been abort I simply would have incarnated somewhere else, no big deal, God can't be thwarted. This whole notion that God can be thwarted and a child fail to enter this world at God's command seems lacking in faith to me. God cannot be thwarted, if He deems someone is getting in that child will get in no matter what. With abortion, the odds increase that that child will be born to a loving home that really wants a child. The alternative is an ugly reality that people around here aren't interested in hearing about.
The soul doesn't enter the body of a fetus that has no brain and is indistinguishable from a chicken at the same age.
As to hate and compassion, the proof is in the putting, public child-care services for living children are almost non-existent in the red states where abortion would be illegal if they could make it so, but in the blue states which keep abortion legal, child care services are abounding. I think it says just as much about how you deal with the living, and what the conservative red states have to say is that children don't really matter.
I love when people turn everything into conservative vs liberal. I am ridiculously moderate and yet I still follow what both the confessions and the Bible say about the unborn. But when you are in a denomination that can just vote about what you want the scriptures to say....I view this to be about as morally compelling as vegetarianism. It's like eco-terrorism, it just doesn't hold water. The soul doesn't enter the body of a fetus that has no brain and is indistinguishable from a chicken at the same age. If it is a sin then killing chickens must be a sin too. You couldn't tell the difference if you saw them side by side.
As to hate and compassion, the proof is in the putting, public child-care services for living children are almost non-existent in the red states where abortion would be illegal if they could make it so, but in the blue states which keep abortion legal, child care services are abounding. I think it says just as much about how you deal with the living, and what the conservative red states have to say is that children don't really matter.
Conservatives just don't think about the consequences to young people. I know first hand, my birth destroyed both my parents lives. They were WAY to young to have a child and I ended up being raised by my grandparents. But of the three of us, it was by far the hardest on me. I feel that if I had been abort I simply would have incarnated somewhere else, no big deal, God can't be thwarted. This whole notion that God can be thwarted and a child fail to enter this world at God's command seems lacking in faith to me. God cannot be thwarted, if He deems someone is getting in that child will get in no matter what. With abortion, the odds increase that that child will be born to a loving home that really wants a child. The alternative is an ugly reality that people around here aren't interested in hearing about.
Which part, about the soul entering the body or about a human embryo being indistinguishable from a chicken embryo at up to 2 months?
And you know this because...
But when you are in a denomination that can just vote about what you want the scriptures to say....
I fully believe life begins at conception. While some unborn children die naturally (miscarriages), that is not in and of itself a justification for abortion, to me (just to proactively tackle that argument). God gets to be God, and if in His Wisdom some should be allowed to die through miscarriage, then much as I don't personally like it, I must let God be God. But a doctor, a mother, or even a father pushing for abortion (or for life, for that matter), are not and should not be God.
Which part, about the soul entering the body
or about a human embryo being indistinguishable from a chicken embryo at up to 2 months?
I think the problem is conflating the body with the soul and spirit. The body is not the soul or spirit. The body does not survive death, but the soul and spirit do. A soul bearing spirit can't enter the body of an undeveloped embryo anymore than it can enter the body of a fish. But if you conflate the body with the soul then you can make all sorts of suppositions that are not in any way supported by the Bible. It is just sloppy theology.
It is the same issue with evolution, there came a point when our ancestors acquired souls, but even just 3,000 years ago in the OT and in Homer's epic our ancestors were still acting like savage animals. But gradually more and more people started acting civilized rather than like human animals, i.e. they acquired souls. People with souls act civilized and people without do not. Just as there came a point when our ancestors clearly started acquiring more souls and being less animal-like and subhuman, there comes a time when a fetus acquires a soul.
So I think that irrational attitudes about both abortion and evolution are intimately linked. It is all based on sloppy theology, the body is not the soul, they are very different things. To conflate one with the other leads to all sorts of erroneous beliefs.
...Your whole argument is sloppy theology. It has no basis in Scripture or basic Christian teachings whatsoever.
At 6 weeks the arms and legs are still just "buds". Fetal development: The first trimester - MayoClinic.comYou don't know much about human development, do you? A human embryo has hands and feet at 6 to 8 weeks. I've never seen a chicken with hands or human feet.
What are the basic Christian teachings on this subject? I don't see much of anything in the Bible that clearly addresses this issue.Your whole argument is sloppy theology. It has no basis in Scripture or basic Christian teachings whatsoever.
Indeed, 2 Timothy 3:13 comes to mind.QFT.
I'm not even sure we can say "sloppy theology". I don't think it's theology, PERIOD.
In Homer's epic, either Hercules' son or Odysseus himself kills Hector's baby (there are two surviving versions of the ending of the Iliad). Even the heros of the epic are savage beasts that do things that modern civilized people could never even dream of doing.Now, LM... what the... I can't even ask a proper question, so I'll just say that just because people don't act like we think they should act (civilized or "uncivilized"), doesn't mean they are soulless.
Chromosomes do not dictate the presence of a soul bearing spirit. Only the development of the fetus into a being that has a brain and nervous system does, in my opinion.And a human fetus has human chromosomes, a chicken fetus has chicken chromosomes (genes, etc.). Just because they look alike to the naked eye doesn't mean they actually are alike.
A fish's life begins at conception too. Life is not the issue, the presence of a soul is the issue here. People on both sides of the issue just gloss over this central issue, such that things are rarely said on either side that I find compelling.I fully believe life begins at conception.
What are the basic Christian teachings on this subject? I don't see much of anything in the Bible that clearly addresses this issue.
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