Leaving behind all of the doctrine of demons era

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am persuaded that the doctrine of demons era would have started as early as the eighth century, being marked by the use of burning heretics at the pope's command. These popes lost their way. And their letters would have contained errors. The kings and knights also would have made mistakes and this probably continued through the life of Luther while he was leaving it behind. The legacy of this era would be in our constitutions and justice systems. Also in the meaning and regular use of some words.

Rights and freedoms, the end of slavery and such emerge out from that eras darkness. But what else is there? What do you think the essence of such teachings were? And how does one take off the false teachings?

 

[Ken Rank]

I am persuaded that the doctrine of demons era would have started as early as the eighth century, being marked by the use of burning heretics at the pope's command. These popes lost their way. And their letters would have contained errors. The kings and knights also would have made mistakes and this probably continued through the life of Luther while he was leaving it behind. The legacy of this era would be in our constitutions and justice systems. Also in the meaning and regular use of some words.

Rights and freedoms, the end of slavery and such emerge out from that eras darkness. But what else is there? What do you think the essence of such teachings were? And how does one take off the false teachings?

It actually started immediately with the gnostics who claimed to be Jews and weren't. And the doctrine of demons hasn't ceased.... there is a post today on here about a guy urging kids to film an anti-God video and post it to YouTube.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

The problems being, that things always change. The issues with our movement, if it is indeed Philadelphian, "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." - Revelation 3:12

"No more go out" - In other words they were in and out of revival.

Pentecostal revival was good in the 1900's, in our case, all our evangelist died away and nobody filled their shoes. It will be hard to maintain revival in this day and time without good evangelists. Most churches these days don't even have Sunday evening service!

 

[Hidden In Him]

It actually started immediately with the gnostics who claimed to be Jews and weren't.

I used to think the verse was talking about Gnostics too, Ken, since they were clearly the most dominant spiritual threat in the New Testament era outside possibly the Judaizers. But that particular verse is actually about the Essenes (Note: Essenism is the same heresy addressed in Colossians). Some of them were so devout in their Judaism that they even forbid contact with females, and were staunch vegetarians (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

 

[Ken Rank]

I used to think the verse was talking about Gnostics too, Ken, since they were clearly the most dominant spiritual threat in the New Testament era outside possibly the Judaizers. But that particular verse is actually about the Essenes (Note: Essenism is the same heresy addressed in Colossians). Some of them were so devout in their Judaism that they even forbid contact with females, and were staunch vegetarians (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

I would disagree... John the Baptist was an Essene and since it is their writings that have been found in Qumran, we actually have much answered by them. Some of the things Paul quotes, where he says, "it is written" and then we don't have Scripture for it... have been found in manuscripts found in Qumran. The Essenes were just a sect of Judaism, just as Christianity was during the first century.

 

[Ken Rank]

I used to think the verse was talking about Gnostics too, Ken, since they were clearly the most dominant spiritual threat in the New Testament era outside possibly the Judaizers. But that particular verse is actually about the Essenes (Note: Essenism is the same heresy addressed in Colossians). Some of them were so devout in their Judaism that they even forbid contact with females, and were staunch vegetarians (1 Timothy 4:1-3).

It is interesting about the 1 Tim 4 verses you quote. When in history has anyone forbidden others to marry? I only know of one place... the church. Before the church took authority over who it recognized and being married (and who it didn't), the authority for marriage was in the family. The parents, the fathers, would work out a deal and then their children would marry. The church came along in the 300's and said the authority rests with them. Interestingly, it remained this way until the Protestant awakening when they took the authority away from the church... but sadly gave it to the state. Now we have to get written permission (and pay for it) from a secular institution) if we want to be legally married in our culture.

The ones who forbade marriage also commanded we abstain from meats that God gave us. Who passed decrees about food? The same people who took the authority for marriage.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would disagree... John the Baptist was an Essene and since it is their writings that have been found in Qumran, we actually have much answered by them. Some of the things Paul quotes, where he says, "it is written" and then we don't have Scripture for it... have been found in manuscripts found in Qumran. The Essenes were just a sect of Judaism, just as Christianity was during the first century.

Don't get me wrong. Not everything the Essenes taught was wrong. In fact, it was the things they had right that made some of their teachings so tempting...

Since you're familiar with it, mind sharing your source material on the case for John the Baptist being an Essene? I'd be interested to read that.

 

[Ken Rank]

Don't get me wrong. Not everything the Essenes taught was wrong. In fact, it was the things they had right that made some of their teachings so tempting...

Since you're familiar with it, mind sharing your source material on the case for John the Baptist being an Essene? I'd be interested to read that.

I have some material worth reading... there are many who believe that the "teacher of righteousness" mentioned in some manuscripts found in Qumran are speaking of John. I can write back tomorrow.

In the meantime, in the first century, there were many sects of Judaism. We have two different schools of Pharisees, the Sadducees which were the priests and the elite, the Samaritans (though they were a remnant of the Northern Kingdom Israel who had mostly assimilated into Judaism at that time), the Essenes, the Christians, and 4 or 5 other major groups. You then have the gnostics who tried to infiltrate Judaism but they failed because Judaism was too well established for them to have any influence. Within Christianity, especially once the face of the faith became more Greek than Hebrew, it was an easier target to go after.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I am persuaded that the doctrine of demons era would have started as early as the eighth century, being marked by the use of burning heretics at the pope's command. These popes lost their way. And their letters would have contained errors. The kings and knights also would have made mistakes and this probably continued through the life of Luther while he was leaving it behind. The legacy of this era would be in our constitutions and justice systems. Also in the meaning and regular use of some words.

You'll have to prove that popes burned heretics in the eighth century, first. Got any documentation you can share? You'll also have to point out theological errors of the popes. After all, that's where their infallibility lies. There's a large period of time, though between the eighth century and Luther.

Rights and freedoms, the end of slavery and such emerge out from that eras darkness. But what else is there? What do you think the essence of such teachings were? And how does one take off the false teachings?

What false teachings?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

You'll have to prove that popes burned heretics in the eighth century, first. Got any documentation you can share? You'll also have to point out theological errors of the popes. After all, that's where their infallibility lies. There's a large period of time, though between the eighth century and Luther.What false teachings?

I have a friend who recently, just weeks ago passed away. Br Pascal H. He informed me speaking with probably a sense of revision and in the context of the brothers academic learning that the Popes became too political in the eight and ninth centuries. I suspect this may be because they had so much political power and because of the Islamic forces.

I am not sure when death began to be enforced upon the ones the Pope found heretical. But a Pope of such a hard heart, I would say was under the doctrines of demons and I would not trust his teachings. While the Ex Cathedra teachings were treated more carefully.

The false teaching I refer to are the ones coming from hard hearted ones and bitter ones. Rivalry between Protestants and "Papists". It still lingers in Northern Ireland. Teachings against spiritual gifts persisting after the death the the last apostle. The witch hunt concepts. Punishing the ones of erring ways instead of blessing them. Our justice systems is full of old Christian world ideas. It very much differs from the justice of the apostles and from recent times missionaries, who converted head hunters rather than try to imprison them...

Teachers who go to extremes are dangerous. When Satan can't block in front, he gets behind to push us too far. Not too much love, or worship, but too much force, strictness, opulence, ambition, control... things on the periphery of Peter the apostle's mission.

Other false teaching lot off all so called "prosperity Gospel" teaching as evil, and again create a sense of rivalry, and want to force silence rivals unless they "recant"...

They lost the teachings on the presence and power of Jesus' precious blood.
They don't ask for "more Lord."

There is the matter of sinful priests who confessed their sins, but were able to keep their positions or merely be moved to new parishes. They were not sent out of the priesthood at first signs.

These priests, are not generally recognized as repentant by the public despite confessing. They are useless as preachers. No one wants to touch them. Whereas there are stories of confessors who repented and this moved people. Like Nicky Cruz or Jan Erickson. So there is false teaching in the confession tradition.

Repentance and becoming above reproach and the goodness of Jesus to such a one and those they serve is salt. If he returns to sins the salt loses it's flavour. The testimony flavours and preserves Christian society. Salt and light are mentioned together in Jesus' Gospel. Light should be on a high place, sermons. It is not good enough to be sorry for the same sins each week, so if there is a bogged in sin, one needs a break through, to overcome.

I personally can't believe in transubstantiation and the ordination of priests continuing by the laying on of hands until now.

I find communion a valuable relic of the old church. It keeps people seeking to be completely sinless. But we miss the love feasts and the living water, healing, sprinkling of Jesus' blood, the fire of God, the anointing oil, as for Timothy and the prophets, and eating the bread of life outside the mass. These powers help us to be clean and become holy characters equipped to serve others. But thankfully they begin to be found again in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I would disagree... John the Baptist was an Essene and since it is their writings that have been found in Qumran, we actually have much answered by them. Some of the things Paul quotes, where he says, "it is written" and then we don't have Scripture for it... have been found in manuscripts found in Qumran. The Essenes were just a sect of Judaism, just as Christianity was during the first century.

We cannot be certain that it is the writing of the Essenes that have been found at Qumran. This is just one hypothesis, that has evidence in support and evidence against it. Pliny for instance, says the Essenes lived next to the dead sea, but a lot of their doctrine is in opposition to what Philo and Josephus wrote on the Essenes - but to be fair, they didn't always agree themselves.

Similarly with John the Baptist. I made a thread to discuss that a while back:

Was John the Baptist an Essene?

Please give a citation for Paul quoting from Qumran scrolls that aren't Biblical text variations? What verses and what texts?

I have some material worth reading... there are many who believe that the "teacher of righteousness" mentioned in some manuscripts found in Qumran are speaking of John. I can write back tomorrow.

What is this argument based on? I cannot see how this description fits John the Baptist at all, especially seeing that it would predate him by more than a hundred years.

The description fits an earlier messiah figure or perhaps a missing High Priest from Maccabeaen times much better.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I have a friend who recently, just weeks ago passed away. Br Pascal H. He informed me speaking with probably a sense of revision and in the context of the brothers academic learning that the Popes became too political in the eight and ninth centuries. I suspect this may be because they had so much political power and because of the Islamic forces.

I am not sure when death began to be enforced upon the ones the Pope found heretical. But a Pope of such a hard heart, I would say was under the doctrines of demons and I would not trust his teachings. While the Ex Cathedra teachings were treated more carefully.

So this is a personal feeling, rather than some published account. I get it. No proof.

The false teaching I refer to are the ones coming from hard hearted ones and bitter ones. Rivalry between Protestants and "Papists". It still lingers in Northern Ireland. Teachings against spiritual gifts persisting after the death the the last apostle. The witch hunt concepts. Punishing the ones of erring ways instead of blessing them. Our justice systems is full of old Christian world ideas. It very much differs from the justice of the apostles and from recent times missionaries, who converted head hunters rather than try to imprison them...

Most witch hunts were done by Protestants. Again, no specifics, no proof.

Teachers who go to extremes are dangerous. When Satan can't block in front, he gets behind to push us too far. Not too much love, or worship, but too much force, strictness, opulence, ambition, control... things on the periphery of Peter the apostle's mission.

Other false teaching lot off all so called "prosperity Gospel" teaching as evil, and again create a sense of rivalry, and want to force silence rivals unless they "recant"...

Prosperity Gospel is inherently Protestant.

They lost the teachings on the presence and power of Jesus' precious blood.
They don't ask for "more Lord."

The Eucharist is all "Lord".

There is the matter of sinful priests who confessed their sins, but were able to keep their positions or merely be moved to new parishes. They were not sent out of the priesthood at first signs.

Protestants love to quote the meme "All have sinned". We know that. And yes, the institution has faults. So what?

These priests, are not generally recognized as repentant by the public despite confessing. They are useless as preachers. No one wants to touch them. Whereas there are stories of confessors who repented and this moved people. Like Nicky Cruz or Jan Erickson. So there is false teaching in the confession tradition.

Repentance and becoming above reproach and the goodness of Jesus to such a one and those they serve is salt. If he returns to sins the salt loses it's flavour. The testimony flavours and preserves Christian society. Salt and light are mentioned together in Jesus' Gospel. Light should be on a high place, sermons. It is not good enough to be sorry for the same sins each week, so if there is a bogged in sin, one needs a break through, to overcome.

I personally can't believe in transubstantiation and the ordination of priests continuing by the laying on of hands until now.

So, personal disbelief in the Gospel?

I find communion a valuable relic of the old church. It keeps people seeking to be completely sinless. But we miss the love feasts and the living water, healing, sprinkling of Jesus' blood, the fire of God, the anointing oil, as for Timothy and the prophets, and eating the bread of life outside the mass. These powers help us to be clean and become holy characters equipped to serve others. But thankfully they begin to be found again in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Well, we don't miss those things. We do them. The entire Church, not just the CCR.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

So this is a personal feeling, rather than some published account. I get it. No proof.Most witch hunts were done by Protestants. Again, no specifics, no proof.Prosperity Gospel is inherently Protestant.The Eucharist is all "Lord".Protestants love to quote the meme "All have sinned". We know that. And yes, the institution has faults. So what?So, personal disbelief in the Gospel?
Well, we don't miss those things. We do them. The entire Church, not just the CCR.

Br Pascal Hagerty of the De La Salle order of brothers, he died about a month ago, but I can contact the clergy tomorrow. I will ask them about the popes in history.

The doctrines of demons were extremities carried out by the Catholics against Protestants and Protestants who hunted witches, even King James of KJV. Martin Luther himself was a really hard line authoritarian and still under the teachings of that era. The Evangelical Mayor of Manhattan Island for example put the friendly natives to death because they did not pay tax.

The prosperity Gospel is very much a Pentecostal teaching, written against by other Pentecostals, like Gordon Fee, but also the Catholic catechism supports that being wealthy is a good thing, that creates jobs, and buys products and services. I was previously taught by an amateur that the Gospel was in favour of moderation, and working hard to have the common.

"More Lord" means, I want more of you Lord, more drinking living water, more covering in your blood, more love, I even want to be anointed like Timothy Paul's son in the faith. All the forms of God's presence are the Lord equally.

When we sin we need to confess yes, and be moving forward to hotness, rather than getting cooler. Outsiders judge us. It is "more Lord" and hunger for His presence and power, and what we say it does for us, that makes us one body and appealing to the non Christians.

As a Roman Catholic youth I attended Taize, and drank a little living water, I prayed at the foot of the cross for friends, but Jesus' sacred blood and other things only got mention for receiving in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and our friends like Toronto Vineyard.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Br Pascal Hagerty of the De La Salle order of brothers, he died about a month ago, but I can contact the clergy tomorrow. I will ask them about the popes in history.

But the De La Salle order of brothers, actually the Christian Brothers, is not a religious order, per se. It's a religious community. I know, because I went to a Christian Brothers school. There were priests who were Christian Brothers who carried on affairs, others who smoked pot, others who had illicit sexual relation ships. I'm just saying that it may be just opinion. It is true that there were bad popes, no doubt of that. I'm looking for scholarly support.

The doctrines of demons were extremities carried out by the Catholics against Protestants and Protestants who hunted witches, even King James of KJV. Martin Luther himself was a really hard line authoritarian and still under the teachings of that era. The Evangelical Mayor of Manhattan Island for example put the friendly natives to death because they did not pay tax.

I can find no such thing in Catholic Histories that I'm familiar with. Did Catholics try to bring back heretics? Certainly.

The prosperity Gospel is very much a Pentecostal teaching, written against by other Pentecostals, like Gordon Fee, but also the Catholic catechism supports that being wealthy is a good thing, that creates jobs, and buys products and services. I was previously taught by an amateur that the Gospel was in favour of moderation, and working hard to have the common.

There is nothing wron with being wealthy. It's what you do with your wealth that's important.

"More Lord" means, I want more of you Lord, more drinking living water, more covering in your blood, more love, I even want to be anointed like Timothy Paul's son in the faith. All the forms of God's presence are the Lord equally.

Exactly what we get in the Eucharist.

When we sin we need to confess yes, and be moving forward to hotness, rather than getting cooler. Outsiders judge us. It is "more Lord" and hunger for His presence and power, and what we say it does for us, that makes us one body and appealing to the non Christians.

As a Roman Catholic youth I attended Taize, and drank a little living water, I prayed at the foot of the cross for friends, but Jesus' sacred blood and other things only got mention for receiving in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, and our friends like Toronto Vineyard.

 

[Ken Rank]

We cannot be certain that it is the writing of the Essenes that have been found at Qumran. This is just one hypothesis, that has evidence in support and evidence against it. Pliny for instance, says the Essenes lived next to the dead sea, but a lot of their doctrine is in opposition to what Philo and Josephus wrote on the Essenes - but to be fair, they didn't always agree themselves.

Similarly with John the Baptist. I made a thread to discuss that a while back:

Was John the Baptist an Essene?

Please give a citation for Paul quoting from Qumran scrolls that aren't Biblical text variations? What verses and what texts?

What is this argument based on? I cannot see how this description fits John the Baptist at all, especially seeing that it would predate him by more than a hundred years.

The description fits an earlier messiah figure or perhaps a missing High Priest from Maccabeaen times much better.

Our group might have the largest private messianic book collection anywhere. From the earliest of Jewish writings to early Christian era material and so much more. If you're ever in Kentucky, let me know and I can show you what it is all based on. To support certain points I would need to write for hours just citing references. I shouldn't have commented on this... my apologies.