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This dicotomy can make us quite judgemental. There is another group, which is probably most of us - the hypocrit - we know we are not as good as we should be, but we have to hide that from other Christians and the world. We talk the talk - oh we certainly do that - but many Christians just don't have the emotional resources to engage with the world.Hi Psalm232,
The Church is full of both genuine good believers and also false believers. Jesus told us to expect this. The fact that there are many false believers does not invalidate the Church.
Look at the parables Jesus says about the wheat and the tares and the fish and the net. Both explicitly say that there are going to be false people, even people planted by the devil in the Kingdom of God, until the end when Jesus returns, then the false believers will be removed.
This dicotomy can make us quite judgemental. There is another group, which is probably most of us - the hypocrit - we know we are not as good as we should be, but we have to hide that from other Christians and the world. We talk the talk - oh we certainly do that - but many Christians just don't have the emotional resources to engage with the world.
Almost no one is as good as they *should* be.we don't have to hide that. In fact, the desire to hide that is a problem. I grew up in an evangelical charismatic Church as a pastors kid, so I know the pressure to try and appear as a perfect Christian etc.
I often look back on myself and think how fake I was in trying to put up the front of being a perfect Christian to my non-Christian friends etc. I thought that was necessary in order to "be a good witness". I thought that was part of "showing there was something different about us".
Eventually I came to realize that trying to hide our faults and not being honest about our faults is one of our fundamental human problems. We need to be honest and confess our faults.
Even when dealing with other people, it is much better to be "real" to just be who you really are than to try and put up a fake front of perfection.
Yes, but what about this?
Pastor has issue with wife - she's can't/won't come to church. Rooted in past rejection (or perception of)
Issue becomes unmentionable. Affects his ministry.
No go area. The elephant in the room.
If we all have such issues, then no wonder we put on a front.
If we shared them then someone WOULD indeed argue we shouldn't be in ministry.
Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."
From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.
I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.
Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??
Hi Oscarr.
Obviously another Kiwi with such a sensible post.
Bless you
John
NZ
Relationships beyond a certain point are difficult for most people. We have become so private and self reliant. Add a judgmental, sin centred teaching given in a lecture style and there is little to challenge this sad state of affairs. Over the years may wife and I have seen so many people transformed because we listened without judgement, and loved and supported people no matter what 'came out' from our times together.
John
NZ
What I see here are symptoms of trying to live the Christian life by works instead of grace.
We are saved by grace
We live our Christian life by grace
We are glorified by grace.
The problem is with many Christians is that they are saved by grace, and then suddenly they find themselves trying to live the Christian life by works. This is shown by trying to keep to the "rules", or to the expectations of others to win their approval. If a church or a person induces another to behave in a certain way in order to get their approval, then they are shifting that person away from grace to self-effort, based on works, which leads to self-righteousness.
The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent approval of God. Paul said this to the Galatians. He asked them why, having started by grace through faith, why are they trying to make the goal through their own works?
We live in obedience to God because we are already approved by Him, not to gain His approval. And when we are already approved by God, then we don't need anyone else's approval at all. If a church or person demands that we live a certain way to maintain their approval, they are not in the Spirit, but are forcing the demans of the flesh on us. We have every right to refuse to live up to anyone's set of rules of principles in order to gain their approval.
We live our lives by the grace of God and under the light of His approval. We obey God out of our love for him.
If a church or person demands a certain way of behaviour in order to gain approval, part company with them because they will drag you down into the same grievous sin that they are wallowing in. The Scripture says that they who are in the flesh cannot please God. Justification is by grace through faith, and once we are justified, we live under the full approval of God. That is true Christian freedom - to live as guided by the Holy Spirit and not under the yoke of demanding and judgmental neo-pharisees who want to exercise power and control over us.
God does not view us according to our performance. He views us through the Righteousness of Christ which He has bestowed on us through grace. It doesn't matter what we do, we will always be approved of God. This is what justification is all about. If we do good, this does not make us any more approved of God than the grace He gave us when we first came to Christ. If we mess up, He does not take His approval away. This should set us free from the continual sinning-repenting syndrome brought about by seeking approval when we mess up, and seeking more approval if we do something good. Doing this is trying to get there by works instead of resting in the grace of God.
Of course, sanctification is another issue, but this is not generated by others demanding obedience to their rules. It is being led by the Holy Spirit in love, peace and joy, and in close fellowship with God.
Well, Psalm 232 - you've identified a controversy which many preachers are unable to grapple with, and has caused me to lose a lot of respect for preaching.
Is it really that simple? I'm referring again to Oscar's post on grace:
"The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent (???) approval of God."
My questions- What about people "falling away" like in the book of Jude?
"Twice dead and plunked up by the roots"
"Demas has forsaked me having loved this present world..." sort of thing.
Demas withdrew from working with Paul. He had not abandoned his faith.
Or the statements in the book of Revelations where Jesus says- unless you repent (to the churches- already saved ppl) I will take away your lampstand?
That was addressed to church, people collectively who had allowed some wrong influences into their life. The reference to a lampstand refers to the Inner place within te Tabernacle and temple, signifiying their lost intimacy with Jesus, not primarily their eternal destiny.
I know we have "unconditional love" but does that also mean "unconditional approval?"
Is this the same as OSAS?
Or are you saying- it's a matter of ORDER. You are given this forgiveness and GIFT of righteousness which could never be earned. And in response out of love, you desire to please God by turning from sin....?
Is it really that simple? I'm referring again to Oscar's post on grace:
"The truth is that when a person accepts Christ, he or she is totally cleansed and forgiven, and now has the full and permanent (???) approval of God."
My questions- What about people "falling away" like in the book of Jude?
"Twice dead and plunked up by the roots"
"Demas has forsaked me having loved this present world..." sort of thing.
Or the statements in the book of Revelations where Jesus says- unless you repent (to the churches- already saved ppl) I will take away your lampstand?
I know we have "unconditional love" but does that also mean "unconditional approval?"
Is this the same as OSAS?
Or are you saying- it's a matter of ORDER. You are given this forgiveness and GIFT of righteousness which could never be earned. And in response out of love, you desire to please God by turning from sin....?
Personally, I wouldn't go to a Baptist church. I spent too long in a non-denominational church that had a Baptist theology, and I was starving to death. The church wasn't bad, but it wasn't really good either.
Hi,
I have left a charismatic cult that was filled with lying signs, lying dreams, a false teacher and tons of (false) prophesy. A large part of the draw and legitimacy of the group was the idea that most of Christianity (called churchianity) is apostate....that it is BABYLON, and we are to "come out from it and be separate."
From this teachings, I began to believe I was sinning to visit or attend a Christian church or even listen to Christian pastors on the radio- outside of the teacher of the group and a few approved teachers.
I am desiring to simply fellowship in a place that loves God and teaches the Word... and considering attending a Baptist church. I am highly sensitive to issues of control, legalism, and manipulation....and so far it seems good....kind, loving, healthy.
Has anyone else been taught it is sin to go to a normal church? Is this a common cult teaching....or is it part of a reform movement from the Holy Spirit...??
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