Learning to decipher between beliefs and indoctrination

[Gregory Thompson]

Before putting this out to an open forum like this, I gave it to my brother to ask his thoughts as he is a bit more accustomed to listening to my crazy thoughts. He enthusiastically said post it! He also told me to offer you a few more verses regarding practicing our own traditions to give you more to go on.

Here's the thought -

Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

Can you please offer examples that do not fit this statement?

Deuteronomy 12:20-32 makes it clear that we're not to use pagan practices to worship God. Throughout history, we as a faith group, have removed the pagan gods from certain practices and plugged in the One True God and declared the practice “good” or even “holy”. Other verses that would indicate we shouldn’t do this – Mat 15:3; Col 2:8; Jer 10:1-5; Heb 10:26. So it would seem that anything non-Hebraic in terms of practicing our faith (there’s A LOT) is therefore evil.

Guidelines and important notes -

1. Please don't take this as an attack on your faith. I am simply trying to grow my own understanding of the Word and using your help to get me outside of my own "box" of thoughts. This is an exercise in growth and faith building for me...I hope it is for you as well.

2. Please don't get angry and rude, but please do reply with a well thought out rebuttal and explanation as to why my theory is actually inaccurate.

3. Please thoroughly research the practice you're highlighting as non-pagan and non-Hebraic to be sure it's accurately represented, because I assure you, I will.

4. This question is asked with the assumption that you acknowledge that Jesus is Jewish and therefore practiced Judaism in the fullest and an utterly obedient fashion. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and "belongs to Judaism" just as must as He "belongs to Christianity."

5. This is said with the assumption that the only source of absolute truth currently available to us is the Bible in the form generally accepted throughout greater Christianity.

6. While the Holy Spirit is a source of absolute truth, it is understood that He will never, under any circumstance, instruct you or anyone else to practice a walk of faith in contradictory manner against the written Word of God - the Bible.

7. It is understood that Jesus did not excuse you or anyone else from obedience. He did pay the price (death) for your inability to practice inerrant obedience.

8. All Biblical references used to refute my theory should be verified by 2-3 different Bible translations as some translations are written with a doctrinal leaning that often skew the true message of the Word.

9. I am not saying that everything in Judaism is correct and perfect. I am saying that Judaism was the selected method of worship practiced by our God and Savior, Jesus.

10. I am not saying you are going to hell because you practice pagan rituals. I am not God and therefore I can’t make such a judgement. Face it - we've all been fooled by Satan as he has manipulated our system of faith of the last 2 millennia. And yes – contrary to popular belief, 2 billion Christians can be wrong and they are wrong on many many things.

The only issue I have with the proposed argument is that Judaism is one of the falsehoods that is repudiated by Jesus, and the written code it is based on is nailed to the cross.
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I agree that there is something wrong with Christianity, but it kind of began with the judaizers entering the faith after the death of Paul.
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I do not agree that the Jewish roots movement is the answer.
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One of the main problems with Christianity in the sense that "2 billion people can be wrong" sense, is basing the faith in Jesus on the bible, (idolatry) instead of basing the faith in Jesus on an actual experience of him.(believing in God because you know God)
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The current bible oriented christianity cultivates too many atheists, and I believe the Jewish roots movement would compound that problem, especially in the West where faith is really really weak.
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I believe it is fine that you express your faith in that way if it works for you, but I do not believe it is for everyone.
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The scriptures are a compliment to the guidance of the Holy Spirit but cannot be the main deal, the reformation experiment proves this.

 

[Aaron Rich]

Your misunderstanding of the word מִקְרָא as though it means a time of worship is the problem; the weekly Sabbath, along with other appointed times, are indeed מִקְרָא־קֹדֶשׁ; not to attend a weekly worship service, but to observe the commandments associated with the appointed time.

And no, Deuteronomy 5:1-3 stands.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not misunderstanding that at all! The Christian church has chosen to add their singing, dancing and preaching to the mix, but it's still the sacred assembly commanded by God - simply moved to a day He didn't command. If we as a church were observing the days and times He commanded we would have an outpouring of blessings the likes of which haven't been seen in centuries.

I think Deuteronomy 5:1-3 is meant for a wider audience than simply those standing before them. The Hebrew sages had an understanding that everyone from every generation was present in a supernatural sense. Furthermore, everyone that was in attendance and all those that came after them were expected to abide by the Torah given to them. And frankly, if you are a believer in Jesus, you're grafted in to the Jewish olive tree and therefore you are counted as a son of Israel. Christianity isn't it's own thing, we're grafted in. Paul makes that clear.

*I feel led to specify that by Jewish I am using the modern term used to describe the entire house of Israel.

 

[thesunisout]

Before putting this out to an open forum like this, I gave it to my brother to ask his thoughts as he is a bit more accustomed to listening to my crazy thoughts. He enthusiastically said post it! He also told me to offer you a few more verses regarding practicing our own traditions to give you more to go on.

Here's the thought -

Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

The question of whether Christianity is true hinges on one fact alone:

1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

If Christ has been raised from the dead by God, then our faith in Him as Messiah is justified. If not, then our faith is in vain. Jews know that God is sending a Messiah, the only question is whether Jesus was that Messiah or not. If He was then everything He taught us to do is true. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

I have a few questions for you:

What do you think of Isaiah 53?

Why did God disperse the Jews for nearly 2000 years without sending a prophet to tell them why, and why did He disperse them? While considering this, bear in mind Jesus said this:

Luke 19:41-44

Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation

Since the genealogies used to establish the Levitical bloodlines were destroyed in AD 70, how can the priesthood be re-established?

 

[Aaron Rich]

I'm quite familiar with my Bible, and it's that familiarity and knowledge of Scripture that I'm using to point out the errors of your own position.



Alright, then I suppose you know some kohanim and a legitimate kohen gadol; we'll go make some qorbonot together. Sound good? Your goat or mine?

Because if you believe Torah is to be observed, and if you reject the Jewish understanding of Torah in favor for some imaginary "Biblical Judaism"; then it should follow that all the Torah should be observed. So as soon as you find some sons of Aaron feel free to make an offering to God.

Until you do, your "Torah observance" is bluster.

-CryptoLutheran

My dear friend you definitely don't understand. The sacrificial system is not allowed under any circumstance without legal access to the Temple Mount and really the preference is with the temple. So all joking aside, we're barred from offering a sacrifice. This would apply to all Torah that requires the temple and official priesthood. Good news though! There's still some 90+ teachings that are expected of us regardless of the temple system!

If you really want something confusing, that doesn't make any sense to me personally, read through Ezekiel and Isaiah. It's quite clear the sacrificial system will be active during the Millennial Kingdom - which, oh by the way, is going to be on Earth not in Heaven. That threw me for a loop!

It really gets to be confusing when we read these things rather than listen to a Pastor teach them - oh well, milk to meat I suppose.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The Christian church has chosen to add their singing, dancing

Not my church.

 

[Aaron Rich]

A pillar is a structural support, whereas steeples are structures in their own right.



There is no "rather." It is both/and, not either/or.


You miss my point; I have addressed the point of Sunday worship elsewhere ad nauseum, and am uninterested in addressing it here, particularly since @ViaCrucis is doing such a nice job.

We do not pray to priests; if you think that is what happens in the liturgy you are mistaken.

Oh dear...there should be ONLY praying to God. Not to the supposed saints. The saints declared to be saints by men...not God.

There's plenty of praying to priests during confession and other practices. Priest pretend as though they have the authority to forgive your sins after such prayers. I am by no means referencing liturgy...I'm a big fan of liturgy!

That's not to mention the idols that some denominations recommend we bow down to. Even worse.

 

[Aaron Rich]

Not my church.

Haha! Many congregations teach that dancing is evil! I know my original denomination did! Interesting though - dancing is all over the place in the Bible. Miriam (Moses' sister) danced, David danced...who declares it evil and off limits?!

 

[Paul Yohannan]

There's plenty of praying to priests during confession and other practices.

This is of course incorrect.

Priest pretend as though they have the authority to forgive your sins after such prayers.

They do have such authority according to Matthew 16:19

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Many congregations teach that dancing is evil! I know my original denomination did!

We just don't do it in the liturgy.

 

[Aaron Rich]

A pillar is a structural support, whereas steeples are structures in their own right.



There is no "rather." It is both/and, not either/or.



We do not pray to priests; if you think that is what happens in the liturgy you are mistaken.



You miss my point; I have addressed the point of Sunday worship elsewhere ad nauseum, and am uninterested in addressing it here, particularly since @ViaCrucis is doing such a nice job.

Oh! And on the steeples...we'll have to agree to disagree. They serve no purpose Biblically and the only historical purpose of the pillar such as a steeple is that of an asherah pole or something similar.

That said, I've looked and haven't found historical evidence and certainly not Biblical evidence to suggest it's a good thing. If you have something to share that would shine a better light on them, I'm interested in reading it!!

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Oh! And on the steeples...we'll have to agree to disagree. They serve no purpose Biblically and the only historical purpose of the pillar such as a steeple is that of an asherah pole or something similar.

No, the purpose of a pillar is to support an overhanging structure.

The purpose of a steeple is to contain the bells which are rung to announce the services, at least in Orthodox churches.

 

[Aaron Rich]

The only issue I have with the proposed argument is that Judaism is one of the falsehoods that is repudiated by Jesus, and the written code it is based on is nailed to the cross.
.
I agree that there is something wrong with Christianity, but it kind of began with the judaizers entering the faith after the death of Paul.
.
I do not agree that the Jewish roots movement is the answer.
.
One of the main problems with Christianity in the sense that "2 billion people can be wrong" sense, is basing the faith in Jesus on the bible, (idolatry) instead of basing the faith in Jesus on an actual experience of him.(believing in God because you know God)
.
The current bible oriented christianity cultivates too many atheists, and I believe the Jewish roots movement would compound that problem, especially in the West where faith is really really weak.
.
I believe it is fine that you express your faith in that way if it works for you, but I do not believe it is for everyone.
.
The scriptures are a compliment to the guidance of the Holy Spirit but cannot be the main deal, the reformation experiment proves this.

Interesting points. I will cogitate on them. I will however point out the items I take immediate issue with.

First - You're correct in saying that the Torah was nailed to the cross. The thing people seem to forget is that it was raised from the grave three days later! Jesus and the law are one and the same. You cannot separate them. To do so, to teach such a doctrine is completely false. God and Jesus are one. Jesus is the Word. The Word is the Law. You cannot separate them into individual things.

I will agree that some of the problems with Christianity began when judaisers began teaching that legal conversion was required. Then we started letting pagan practices in too and that just caused more problems that have continued to this day.

 

[Aaron Rich]

This is of course incorrect.



They do have such authority according to Matthew 16:19

Oh dear...what a poor use of that scripture. That's the first time I've heard that one, but I must admit I haven't researched enough to have heard it prior to this. Still an unfortunate use of the verse.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Oh dear...what a poor use of that scripture. That's the first time I've heard that one, but I must admit I haven't researched enough to have heard it prior to this. Still an unfortunate use of the verse.

Unfortunate in what way? Many Protestants even agree with that usage (hence the absolution found in Protestant services).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Matthew 16:19 According to the previous verse the authority is given to the church and Matthew 16:18
ekklesia, meaning an out-calling. This word is used in reference to a called-out congregation. My church indicates that the church is of the Lord, not of any other person or thing; not like the denominations, which are denominated according to some person's name or according to some matter. It's a matter of the body....

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not misunderstanding that at all! The Christian church has chosen to add their singing, dancing and preaching to the mix, but it's still the sacred assembly commanded by God - simply moved to a day He didn't command. If we as a church were observing the days and times He commanded we would have an outpouring of blessings the likes of which haven't been seen in centuries.

1) Again, God didn't command the Sabbath as a day for people to meet together for worship. There were no synagogues in the wilderness, the synagogue developed significantly later in the period of and following the Exile.

2) The blessings attached to the Torah are specifically only for the Jewish people as part of the covenant God made with them at Mt. Horeb. There are no blessings for the Church in this; and to promise blessings where God has not promised blessings is a very dangerous thing.

I think Deuteronomy 5:1-3 is meant for a wider audience than simply those standing before them. The Hebrew sages had an understanding that everyone from every generation was present in a supernatural sense. Furthermore, everyone that was in attendance and all those that came after them were expected to abide by the Torah given to them.

And if you actually paid attention to what the Sages had said you'd know that it was that every Jew was mystically present at the mountain in order to give their full consent to the Covenant and the Torah; it is not "everyone", it is the entire Covenant Nation, from the time of Moses onward. The Egyptians were not present at Horeb, the Assyrians were not present at Horeb, etc; to these were not given the promises of the Covenant nor the mitzvot of Torah. The Sages say that as well.

And frankly, if you are a believer in Jesus, you're grafted in to the Jewish olive tree and therefore you are counted as a son of Israel. Christianity isn't it's own thing, we're grafted in. Paul makes that clear.

But not of the former Covenant which God made at Mt. Horeb; there is a new Covenant established in Christ for both Jew and Gentile, one that fulfills and completes the covenant promises which God had made with the patriarchs and with Israel. The Apostle looks to the time before the giving of Torah, to Abraham, saying, "Abraham had faith and God reckoned it to him as righteousness" therefore there is a "righteousness apart from the Law, through faith", in Christ who is the Seed of Abraham, and thus every one who is in Christ is a child of Abraham through faith, and a member of Israel. Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant, not the new. The feasts and sacrifices were of the old covenant, not the new. Sabbaths, new moons, dietary restrictions were of the old covenant, not the new. We aren't Shomer Shabbos because for us the true Sabbath is not a day of the week, it is the reality of Christ, thus the author of Hebrews says there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God, calling it "today"--today, every day, is our rest for we have our rest not on a day or observance, but in the Person of Jesus God's Messiah who having conquered sin and death brings us into reconciliation and peace with God and the promise and hope of the everlasting life of the age to come.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aaron Rich]

The question of whether Christianity is true hinges on one fact alone:

1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

If Christ has been raised from the dead by God, then our faith in Him as Messiah is justified. If not, then our faith is in vain. Jews know that God is sending a Messiah, the only question is whether Jesus was that Messiah or not. If He was then everything He taught us to do is true. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

I have a few questions for you:

What do you think of Isaiah 53?

Why did God disperse the Jews for nearly 2000 years without sending a prophet to tell them why, and why did He disperse them? While considering this, bear in mind Jesus said this:

Luke 19:41-44

Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation

Since the genealogies used to establish the Levitical bloodlines were destroyed in AD 70, how can the priesthood be re-established?

Your quote in 2 Cor 15 proves our faith in Jesus it does not prove our human traditions should be carried forward in perpetuity. You are right saying that every *HE* taught us to do is true. My statement is focusing on the fact that our faith has become woefully contaminated with our own traditions while we outright ignore God's teachings.

Surely you can't believe that the Jews were sent into exile with no explanation. If you've read the Scriptures in what we now refer to, rather poorly I might add, as the old testament then you should completely understand that God forewarned them exactly what would happen. He forewarned them there would be two exiles. Moses! Moses told them all about it in Deuteronomy.

No, my friend, the Jew's were warned and they understood why they were exiled from the land. They may have willingly disregarded it and claimed no knowledge of why they were exiled, but Moses gave them a song to memorize strictly for this reason. And be happy that they didn't recognize their Messiah when He came because that has allowed you and I the opportunity to come to faith.

You know we're told to expect Elijah before Jesus returns. Many think that he will be the source of knowledge on how to re-institute the Aaronic priesthood. In truth though, I don't think we're told how that will happen. At least not that I've spotted yet...maybe it's there though. I'm still exploring every day! All of these truths are in our Bible's, if we're only open to understanding the truth in spite of our indoctrination.

 

[Hallstone]

Before putting this out to an open forum like this, I gave it to my brother to ask his thoughts as he is a bit more accustomed to listening to my crazy thoughts. He enthusiastically said post it! He also told me to offer you a few more verses regarding practicing our own traditions to give you more to go on.

Here's the thought -

Everything within Christianity that is true, faithful and obedient to God and His Word is actually Judaism. Everything that cannot be shown to be Hebraic in origin, is in fact pagan and by definition fully disobedient and evil.

Can you please offer examples that do not fit this statement?

Deuteronomy 12:20-32 makes it clear that we're not to use pagan practices to worship God. Throughout history, we as a faith group, have removed the pagan gods from certain practices and plugged in the One True God and declared the practice “good” or even “holy”. Other verses that would indicate we shouldn’t do this – Mat 15:3; Col 2:8; Jer 10:1-5; Heb 10:26. So it would seem that anything non-Hebraic in terms of practicing our faith (there’s A LOT) is therefore evil.

Guidelines and important notes -

1. Please don't take this as an attack on your faith. I am simply trying to grow my own understanding of the Word and using your help to get me outside of my own "box" of thoughts. This is an exercise in growth and faith building for me...I hope it is for you as well.

2. Please don't get angry and rude, but please do reply with a well thought out rebuttal and explanation as to why my theory is actually inaccurate.

3. Please thoroughly research the practice you're highlighting as non-pagan and non-Hebraic to be sure it's accurately represented, because I assure you, I will.

4. This question is asked with the assumption that you acknowledge that Jesus is Jewish and therefore practiced Judaism in the fullest and an utterly obedient fashion. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and "belongs to Judaism" just as must as He "belongs to Christianity."

5. This is said with the assumption that the only source of absolute truth currently available to us is the Bible in the form generally accepted throughout greater Christianity.

6. While the Holy Spirit is a source of absolute truth, it is understood that He will never, under any circumstance, instruct you or anyone else to practice a walk of faith in contradictory manner against the written Word of God - the Bible.

7. It is understood that Jesus did not excuse you or anyone else from obedience. He did pay the price (death) for your inability to practice inerrant obedience.

8. All Biblical references used to refute my theory should be verified by 2-3 different Bible translations as some translations are written with a doctrinal leaning that often skew the true message of the Word.

9. I am not saying that everything in Judaism is correct and perfect. I am saying that Judaism was the selected method of worship practiced by our God and Savior, Jesus.

10. I am not saying you are going to hell because you practice pagan rituals. I am not God and therefore I can’t make such a judgement. Face it - we've all been fooled by Satan as he has manipulated our system of faith of the last 2 millennia. And yes – contrary to popular belief, 2 billion Christians can be wrong and they are wrong on many many things.

What have you got if you remove The Land, The Temple, the sacrifices, the dietary laws, the holy days, and the priesthood?......True Christianity. It is Jesus that was to define Judaism not the other way around. It is false Christianity (Pagans) and false Jews that try to add all or some of those things back into the faith. It is for freedom that Christ set us free. I think He said something about "old wine skins". For one instance He goes back before Judaism in order to define the true permanence of marriage. He was the "Prophet that was to come" that would define everything, that's why they hated Him, because their definition was rejected by Him.

 

[ViaCrucis]

My dear friend you definitely don't understand. The sacrificial system is not allowed under any circumstance without legal access to the Temple Mount and really the preference is with the temple.

The Torah doesn't say anything about the Temple, the Temple was built by Solomon, before that the Ark was carried and found in the Tabernacle, many generations passed between Aaron and the time of Solomon. Since you aren't restricted by modern Judaism but instead only "Biblical Judaism" then the only thing really stopping you is the lack of kohanim willing to humor your playing pretend.

So all joking aside, we're barred from offering a sacrifice. This would apply to all Torah that requires the temple and official priesthood. Good news though! There's still some 90+ teachings that are expected of us regardless of the temple system!

Hopefully you're not saying that while wearing clothing that is of a cotton-polyester blend.

If you really want something confusing, that doesn't make any sense to me personally, read through Ezekiel and Isaiah. It's quite clear the sacrificial system will be active during the Millennial Kingdom - which, oh by the way, is going to be on Earth not in Heaven. That threw me for a loop!

Ezekiel prophesied the return of the Jews from Exile, so does Isaiah. Though in Isaiah's case he speaks even further toward the new heavens and the new earth, which is the Christian hope.

It really gets to be confusing when we read these things rather than listen to a Pastor teach them - oh well, milk to meat I suppose.

I don't know how old you are, but I remember when I was younger and first started really reading Scripture seriously for the first time, the ideas I was entertaining were all over the map--including ones you're espousing now. But that's the benefit of constantly learning, when you begin to learn, and you learn how to read things properly and to critically analyze you begin to realize how much you don't know and how much you still need to learn. That's a lesson I continue to learn regularly even now.

It's that lesson that ultimately brought me toward a traditional understanding of Christianity--I wasn't raised Lutheran, and becoming Lutheran over the course of my 20's was very nearly an accident for me.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aaron Rich]

1) Again, God didn't command the Sabbath as a day for people to meet together for worship. There were no synagogues in the wilderness, the synagogue developed significantly later in the period of and following the Exile.

2) The blessings attached to the Torah are specifically only for the Jewish people as part of the covenant God made with them at Mt. Horeb. There are no blessings for the Church in this; and to promise blessings where God has not promised blessings is a very dangerous thing.



And if you actually paid attention to what the Sages had said you'd know that it was that every Jew was mystically present at the mountain in order to give their full consent to the Covenant and the Torah; it is not "everyone", it is the entire Covenant Nation, from the time of Moses onward. The Egyptians were not present at Horeb, the Assyrians were not present at Horeb, etc; to these were not given the promises of the Covenant nor the mitzvot of Torah. The Sages say that as well.



But not of the former Covenant which God made at Mt. Horeb; there is a new Covenant established in Christ for both Jew and Gentile, one that fulfills and completes the covenant promises which God had made with the patriarchs and with Israel. The Apostle looks to the time before the giving of Torah, to Abraham, saying, "Abraham had faith and God reckoned it to him as righteousness" therefore there is a "righteousness apart from the Law, through faith", in Christ who is the Seed of Abraham, and thus every one who is in Christ is a child of Abraham through faith, and a member of Israel. Circumcision was a sign of the old covenant, not the new. The feasts and sacrifices were of the old covenant, not the new. Sabbaths, new moons, dietary restrictions were of the old covenant, not the new. We aren't Shomer Shabbos because for us the true Sabbath is not a day of the week, it is the reality of Christ, thus the author of Hebrews says there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God, calling it "today"--today, every day, is our rest for we have our rest not on a day or observance, but in the Person of Jesus God's Messiah who having conquered sin and death brings us into reconciliation and peace with God and the promise and hope of the everlasting life of the age to come.

-CryptoLutheran

Ah! I see where some of the misunderstanding is. You're one that understands the previous covenants to be replaced by the new covenant. Covenants cannot be canceled. Each subsequent covenant builds of the previous. So as believers we're grafted in and therefore part of the covenant nation.

I strongly wish that I could pass these thoughts on to you all in a way that you would see past your indoctrination and understand what I'm trying to convey. I feel words are failing me right now.

There are so many lies that have been preached to us and taught to us for so long we're all struggling to move past them and study the truth for ourselves. The idea that covenant can be canceled is one of them.