Learning the Sabbath truth...

[EastCoastRemnant]

The seventh day of creation was blessed, sanctified and called holy. God said it was very good. This sounds like something a godly person would see as a special day in the eyes of God with or without a law. If you need a law to see the seventh day as special then you need to reevaluate your relationship with God. Some people believe that once the law points out a right the law is taken away and that right no longer is right.

K4c, well said brother...

Stryder, I really like your new signature. Let's not be ashamed of who we are and what we believe.

Matt 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

 

[k4c]

K4c, well said brother...

Stryder, I really like your new signature. Let's not be ashamed of who we are and what we believe.

Matt 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Thanks Bro ECR,

When we interpret the NT we have to do it in light of the OT. All throughout the OT God speaks of the new covenant as a time when He writes His Law on the hearts and minds of His people, not that He does away with them. The only way the Law can be written on the heart is when love puts it there. All the teachings of Jesus, regarding Sabbath observance, was never in light of doing away with it or changing the day, but rather, the principles of His teachings placed needs pertaining to life and service to God above the letter of Sabbath keeping. In this, Jesus was magnifying the Law and restoring honor to it, just as the OT prophecied. Much of what modern day Christanity teaches has strayed from its OT foundations such as the modern view of an immortal soul. This belief is foreign to the OT and contradicts Scripture.

God is looking for a people who hear what He is saying and agree that it is good and right. He is looking for a people who don't need a law or fear of punisment to obey what He has said is good and right. He is looking for a people moved by love that He can call His own.

I see God creating good and right things in Genesis that fallen man has distorted. They are the blessedness of the seventh day, diet for healthy living and compassion of living creatures and marriage. Today God's people are turning away from these foundational truths and seeing them to be of no value or void for the Christian life. As a result we see what the religeous and heath status of the world is coming to, shame on us for putting God's light under a busshel basket.

 

[Pythons]

Where exactly does scripture say Christians "kept" Sunday?

Not keep in the Old Covenenat sense but GATHER together for "Christian worship".

1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given ORDER to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come


"As I ( Paul ) have given order"....
...According to Strong's that is synonymous with issuing a command.
...Now of course there are those who maintain St Paul didn't have that kind of authority.

The following fundies have generated a video on this very text.

Proving Sunday is COMMANDED in the Bible - Where's My $1000? - YouTube

 

[k4c]

Not keep in the Old Covenenat sense but GATHER together for "Christian worship".

1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given ORDER to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come


"As I ( Paul ) have given order"....
...According to Strong's that is synonymous with issuing a command.
...Now of course there are those who maintain St Paul didn't have that kind of authority.

The following fundies have generated a video on this very text.

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.

Some people use this verse to say a church offering was taken on the first day so they must have been in church but a quick look at this verse we will see this is not what Paul was saying. Paul was going away but when he returned he was going to take some supplies to the saints in Jerusalem. The important words in this verse are the words, 'Lay by him in store'. People interpret these words to mean a church offering but this is not so. These words, 'Lay by him in store' are referring to getting things together from home such as water, food, livestock or whatever else the suffering saints in Jerusalem would need. Some Bible translations make it clear.

Darby Bible Translation​

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.

Weymouth New Testament​

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week let each of you put on one side and store up at his home whatever gain has been granted to him; so that whenever I come, there may then be no collections going on.

International Standard Version​

1 Corinthians 16:2 After the Sabbath ends, each of you should set aside and save something from your surplus in proportion to what you have, so that no collections will have to be made when I arrive.

Paul knew how getting all this stuff together from their homes and barns would be labor intensive and time consuming so he specifically tells them to do it on the first day, rather than, on the Sabbath day.

 

[Pythons]

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.

Some people use this verse to say a church offering was taken on the first day so they must have been in church but a quick look at this verse we will see this is not what Paul was saying. Paul was going away but when he returned he was going to take some supplies to the saints in Jerusalem. The important words in this verse are the words, 'Lay by him in store'. People interpret these words to mean a church offering but this is not so. These words, 'Lay by him in store' are referring to getting things together from home such as water, food, livestock or whatever else the suffering saints in Jerusalem would need. Some Bible translations make it clear.

Darby Bible Translation​

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.

Weymouth New Testament​

1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week let each of you put on one side and store up at his home whatever gain has been granted to him; so that whenever I come, there may then be no collections going on.

International Standard Version​

1 Corinthians 16:2 After the Sabbath ends, each of you should set aside and save something from your surplus in proportion to what you have, so that no collections will have to be made when I arrive.

Paul knew how getting all this stuff together from their homes and barns would be labor intensive and time consuming so he specifically tells them to do it on the first day, rather than, on the Sabbath day.

What day of the week do SDA's put money into the collection basket K4C?
...What is the ISV K4C?

1 Corinthians 16:2 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
​

κατὰ μίαν σαββάτου ἕκαστος ὑμῶν παρ’ ἑαυτῷ τιθέτω θησαυρίζων ὅ τι ἐὰν εὐοδῶται, ἵνα μὴ ὅταν ἔλθω τότε λογεῖαι γίνωνται.

Where IS the words "after the Sabbath" K4C?


you should seriously watch the video - it address the very point you attempt to bring up...
...And aswers it very easily.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The church in those days did not just drop money into a collection plate. Offerings were often made in food or other goods. These kind of collections were a labor intensive process not suitable for the sabbath. That this practice ultimately led to the tradition on worshipping on Sunday is certainly a possibility, but Paul was not commanding here that a Sunday assembly was to replace a Saturday assembly.

Also, this command was specifically related to Paul's visit. It is quite a jump to make this a universal command to all Christians at all times everywhere.

 

[k4c]

Also, this command was specifically related to Paul's visit.

Good point...

 

[Pythons]

The church in those days did not just drop money into a collection plate. Offerings were often made in food or other goods. These kind of collections were a labor intensive process not suitable for the sabbath. That this practice ultimately led to the tradition on worshipping on Sunday is certainly a possibility, but Paul was not commanding here that a Sunday assembly was to replace a Saturday assembly.

The text simply states WHEN Christians were "all assembled"...
...What you are suggesting appears to be a mixture of Christians assembled.
...With Jews practicing Judaism. That equals a no-go.

Hebrews 10,24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


"The Assembling" STRONG'S G1997
1) a gathering together in one place
2) the (religious) assembly (of Christians)



"Of Ourselves together"

SAME WORD G1997


A specific Christian assembly for the purpose of religion...


"IF" let's say there was a gathering of SDA's together......
...Would it be reasonable to expect there would also be Muslims within the assembly?

Also, this command was specifically related to Paul's visit. It is quite a jump to make this a universal command to all Christians at all times everywhere.

The text states Paul gave the EXACT same commad to ALL the Churches...
...The text is explicit.

1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye

Answering these questions helps serve to foster a deeper fellowship in understanding the difference of faith traditions.

 

[ricker]

Not keep in the Old Covenenat sense but GATHER together for "Christian worship".

1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given ORDER to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come


"As I ( Paul ) have given order"....
...According to Strong's that is synonymous with issuing a command.
...Now of course there are those who maintain St Paul didn't have that kind of authority.

I often wonder that people say that means to gather their money together at their homes on the first day of the week. That makes no sense to me. If they were to gather money together at home on a "secular" day wouldn't the sixth day of the week make more sense, since it was the day before they supposedly gathered together? Why specify a particular "secular" day anyway?

I maintain they were assembling themselves on the first day of the week. Likewise, I don't see any indication they were keeping a sabbath rest on that day.

 

[ricker]

Can't say that I do. Which is one reason why I don't understand why they call it the Christian "sabbath". Either way, that has nothing to do with the premise for my question.

The thing is that if the disciples would have made sunday the new sabbath, it would have been just that, a sabbath.

I agree with you.

Christians from the very start of the movement have been gathering on the first day of the week.

I really don't mind the term "Christian Sabbath, though. While we don't try in any way try to rest like the commandment says, the term does indicate for whom the Sabbath command was given, and to whom it was not. Kind of a celebratory phrase proclaiming our freedom in Christ.

 

[Pythons]

I often wonder that people say that means to gather their money together at their homes on the first day of the week. That makes no sense to me. If they were to gather money together at home on a "secular" day wouldn't the sixth day of the week make more sense, since it was the day before they supposedly gathered together?

I maintain they were assembling themselves on the first day of the week. Likewise, I don't see any indication they were keeping a sabbath rest on that day.

I don't understand it either ricker - it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...
...The whole point was that all the Christians would be at the same place at the same time.
...WITH their gifts so that St. Paul would not have to wait while people ran home to get them.

It's either that OR they think St Paul was going to gathering everything himself by making house visits....
...To each Christians home.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It's interesting that your premise of Sunday worship is based on such an ambiguous passage.... no sense letting a clear 'thus sayeth the Lord' get in the way of such an important matter such as when to worship the God of the universe. He always seemed, to me anyway, to be kinda particular on the day thing, at least in the OT... maybe He changed His mind and and said 'forget it, any day you chose will be fine with me, sorry for being such an ogre in the past'... I'm sure thats how it went down, thanx for the enlightenment...

 

[Stryder06]

Not keep in the Old Covenenat sense but GATHER together for "Christian worship".

How does the definition of "keep" change from one covenant to the next?

1 Cor 16,1
Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given ORDER to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come


"As I ( Paul ) have given order"....
...According to Strong's that is synonymous with issuing a command.
...Now of course there are those who maintain St Paul didn't have that kind of authority.

Sorry Pythons, but this isn't a direct statement, which is what I asked for, nor does this text prove that they were gathering together for worship. Last time I checked, even for Sunday services, you didn't set money aside, but you gave it away.

This is the point I've been trying to make for years on this forum. For whatever reason, when we try to show principles that surround the need for keeping the sabbath, we're told that we're: proof-texing, taking it out of context, using extra-biblical sources, etc. However, the keeping of sunday, in any sense, is no where near hinted at, but yet, it's ok for you to make those implications without it being proof-texting, taking it out of context, using extra-biblical sources, etc?

Even if we do disagree, at least we can be fair about it. You can't chage me with the same thing you're doing, and say that I'm not understanding scripture properly, while you're using the same technique (FYI: I don't mean you as in you Pythons, but as in a general sense).

 

[Stryder06]

I agree with you.

Christians from the very start of the movement have been gathering on the first day of the week.

I really don't mind the term "Christian Sabbath, though. While we don't try in any way try to rest like the commandment says, the term does indicate for whom the Sabbath command was given, and to whom it was not. Kind of a celebratory phrase proclaiming our freedom in Christ.

Could you please explain to me what you mean by "..the very start of the movement..."?

And you say it's a celebratory phrase proclaiming your freedom in Christ; does that mean that no one else had freedom in Christ while they were keeping the sabbath?

The one issue I just can't get past is how on one hand it is proclaimed that the sabbath was given to the Jews as a sign between them and God, but than suddenly the Jewish belivers just cast that sign off, even though it was to be a perpetual covenant between them and God? Too many things just don't make sense when you really sit down and look at it.

 

[Pythons]

It's interesting that your premise of Sunday worship is based on such an ambiguous passage.... no sense letting a clear 'thus sayeth the Lord' get in the way of such an important matter such as when to worship the God of the universe. He always seemed, to me anyway, to be kinda particular on the day thing, at least in the OT... maybe He changed His mind and and said 'forget it, any day you chose will be fine with me, sorry for being such an ogre in the past'... I'm sure thats how it went down, thanx for the enlightenment...

I would agree with you that God was very specific in how the Old Covenant Liturgy was performed....
....The day, vestments, specific sacrifices @ specific times, all that.

God was very specific about males being cut as well....
...And I don't think anyone will find any "thus sayeth the Lord"...
....That circumcision has been terminated.

Sorry Pythons, but this isn't a direct statement, which is what I asked for, nor does this text prove that they were gathering together for worship. Last time I checked, even for Sunday services, you didn't set money aside, but you gave it away

Paul's "order" was for that all Christians to have their donations with them...
...And that the day they would have those donations with them was on the 1st day of the week.


Lay [ G5087 ]
1) to set, put, place
a) to place or lay
b) to put down, lay down

By [ G3844 ]
1) from, of at, by, besides, near


Him
1) himself, herself, itself, themselves



In store
1) to gather and lay up, to heap up, store up


The order was for that each person to have "with them" what they could give as donations....
....By their side ( at ,on their person ) on the 1st day of the week.
....It is logical to assume the day a Priest sees everyone.
....Would be the same day EVERYONE gathers for worship.

On the first day of the week everyone is gathered together ( at the same place )...
....And everyone has what they are giving right next to them.
....So when St paul gets there ( where everyone IS ).
....There is no gathering ( people leaving to get their donation ).

I don't know how many churches there were in Galatia & Corinth...
...I do know however ALL of those churches were assembling on the 1st day of the week.

This is the point I've been trying to make for years on this forum. For whatever reason, when we try to show principles that surround the need for keeping the sabbath, we're told that we're: proof-texing, taking it out of context, using extra-biblical sources, etc. However, the keeping of sunday, in any sense, is no where near hinted at, but yet, it's ok for you to make those implications without it being proof-texting, taking it out of context, using extra-biblical sources, etc?

All I'm saying is that is we are to;

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" 2 Thess 2, 15

And that the Tradition of Christian assembly on Sunday is straight from the Apostles themselves....
....I have no beef with SDA's going to church on Saturday.
....I do that ( go on Saturday ) all the time.

Even if we do disagree, at least we can be fair about it. You can't chage me with the same thing you're doing, and say that I'm not understanding scripture properly, while you're using the same technique (FYI: I don't mean you as in you Pythons, but as in a general sense).

That's cool Stryder, you are all good with me...
...I just don't want you ( or any SDA's ) thinking at some point in the future.
...Catholics are going to torture you because you feel like you need to go to church on Saturday.

 

[Stryder06]

Paul's "order" was for that all Christians to have their donations with them...
...And that the day they would have those donations with them was on the 1st day of the week.


Lay [ G5087 ]
1) to set, put, place
a) to place or lay
b) to put down, lay down

By [ G3844 ]
1) from, of at, by, besides, near


Him
1) himself, herself, itself, themselves



In store
1) to gather and lay up, to heap up, store up


The order was for that each person to have "with them" what they could give as donations....
....By their side ( at ,on their person ) on the 1st day of the week.
....It is logical to assume the day a Priest sees everyone.
....Would be the same day EVERYONE gathers for worship.

On the first day of the week everyone is gathered together ( at the same place )...
....And everyone has what they are giving right next to them.
....So when St paul gets there ( where everyone IS ).
....There is no gathering ( people leaving to get their donation ).

I don't know how many churches there were in Galatia & Corinth...
...I do know however ALL of those churches were assembling on the 1st day of the week.

Python's you're missing my point. I don't want to argue this with you. What I'm saying is that you are indeed, implying that they were gathering together, based on what you consider to be strong evidence. We obviously see this differently. What I was hoping you would see is that what you're doing is no different then what you accuse us as Adventist, of doing.

All I'm saying is that is we are to;

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" 2 Thess 2, 15

And that the Tradition of Christian assembly on Sunday is straight from the Apostles themselves....
....I have no beef with SDA's going to church on Saturday.
....I do that ( go on Saturday ) all the time.

Again, you're assumption that the Apostles forsok the perpetual covenant God gave to them, is based on nothing but assumptions given you by your church. There is no documenation to back it up. The use of scripture to defend this stance is based on implications surrounding the few instances we see of corporate sunday gatherings.

That's cool Stryder, you are all good with me...
...I just don't want you ( or any SDA's ) thinking at some point in the future.
...Catholics are going to torture you because you feel like you need to go to church on Saturday.

I really do wish it wouldn't come to that. History however will slowly repeat itself. And unfortunately, your church doesn't exactly have the best track record in regards to dealing with people who have a differnent view than them. The bible points out who the beast is. And the Beast, will have the world in it's pocket, and declare death upon those who do not worship it. Don't you think I would like to believe that it's all gonna be gravy till Christ returns? The fact is that the word of prophecy is sure, and that word tells us that hard times are a'comin.

 

[ricker]

[=Stryder06;58938741]Could you please explain to me what you mean by "..the very start of the movement..."?

I'm no historian but even if you try to dismiss the Bible saying they put away money on the first day of the week, and John mentioned the Lord's day and whatever, I've seen quotes saying there is historical records of Christians meeting on Sunday from at least about the year 100AD if not before.

And you say it's a celebratory phrase proclaiming your freedom in Christ; does that mean that no one else had freedom in Christ while they were keeping the sabbath?

But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

The one issue I just can't get past is how on one hand it is proclaimed that the sabbath was given to the Jews as a sign between them and God, but than suddenly the Jewish belivers just cast that sign off, even though it was to be a perpetual covenant between them and God? Too many things just don't make sense when you really sit down and look at it

Did I or anyone say that Jewish converts to Christianity immediately quit keeping the Sabbath? They could certainly continue keeping the Sabbath as well as the other days given to Israel. That is why there are multiple verses concerning the keeping of days in the Epistles saying don't judge one another.

 

[Pythons]

Python's you're missing my point. I don't want to argue this with you. What I'm saying is that you are indeed, implying that they were gathering together, based on what you consider to be strong evidence. We obviously see this differently. What I was hoping you would see is that what you're doing is no different then what you accuse us as Adventist, of doing.

All I'm saying is that the Scripture says Paul would meet all the Christians @ the same time....
...And the time was Sunday if the 1st day of the week equated to the Gregorian calendar.
...The identical order for people laying by themselves their donations was for all those Churches.

And yes, we don't have to argue and you have my total blessing for following your beliefs...
...And honoring God in the way you think you should.
...On Saturday / Sabbath.

Again, you're assumption that the Apostles forsok the perpetual covenant God gave to them, is based on nothing but assumptions given you by your church. There is no documenation to back it up. The use of scripture to defend this stance is based on implications surrounding the few instances we see of corporate sunday gatherings.

Circumcision was a perpetual covenant sign and was one law God was willing to kill a person Himself over...
...This was changed ( replaced by something else ).
...There is no 'thus sayeth the Lord for ceasing this covenant sign.
...We accept the Apostles teaching on the matter.

I really do wish it wouldn't come to that. History however will slowly repeat itself. And unfortunately, your church doesn't exactly have the best track record in regards to dealing with people who have a differnent view than them. The bible points out who the beast is. And the Beast, will have the world in it's pocket, and declare death upon those who do not worship it. Don't you think I would like to believe that it's all gonna be gravy till Christ returns? The fact is that the word of prophecy is sure, and that word tells us that hard times are a'comin.

I swear to you Stryder, it will never come to that.....
...We may each however suffer execution when / if Islam covers the world in it's blackness.
....Those folks have no problem at all killing over religion.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I swear to you Stryder, it will never come to that.....
...We may each however suffer execution when / if Islam covers the world in it's blackness.
....Those folks have no problem at all killing over religion.

Somehow, I don't get any comfort from your words Pythons as I'm sure you don't speak for the Papacy... as for killing over religion, you shouldn't be throwing stones, your own abode may develop a few broken panes in the process... read Foxe's book of Martyrs.

 

[Stryder06]

I'm no historian but even if you try to dismiss the Bible saying they put away money on the first day of the week, and John mentioned the Lord's day and whatever, I've seen quotes saying there is historical records of Christians meeting on Sunday from at least about the year 100AD if not before.

Ricker, I'm not dismissing the bible saying they put money away on the first day of the week. I'm saying that that statement is not proof of any church gathering. That is implied.

Did I or anyone say that Jewish converts to Christianity immediately quit keeping the Sabbath? They could certainly continue keeping the Sabbath as well as the other days given to Israel. That is why there are multiple verses concerning the keeping of days in the Epistles saying don't judge one another.

That doesn't answer the question Ricker. You have to assume that the disciples stopped keeping the sabbath first. This assumption is not based on anything outside of implications placed upon two or three texts that mention the first day of the week. If the disciples never stopped keeping the sabbath, than the foundation for that arguement falls. That's why I asked that question. The disiciples were Jews. The sabbath was called a perpetual covenant between God and His people, as a reminder that He sanctifies them.