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Leaf Camoflage

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Demian

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Hello. First of all, I am not looking for a debate so much as I was wondering if some evolutionist could help me here since I do not claim to be a genius in evolutionary knowledge. Now then.

At the zoo a few days ago, we visited an insectarium. In there I got to see a bug.. well I actually didn't get to see it, it had to be grabbed and touched a little bit before I finally saw it. It was a bug that looked like a leaf..and by looked like I mean it was basically a leaf with legs. It had the vein skeleton, edge browning, fake weather damage, etc. It looked like a leaf, now my problem is, that my understanding of evolution is it is not precise nor do the organisms have any choice in mutations passed to their children. So how exactly could a creature evolve to look exactly like a leaf, it seems much too precise to happen with the means of random mutations and natural selection.
 

Impaler

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First of all this topic shouldn't be made in the debate sub forum. This area is more for formal one on one debates.

To your actual question, it's very simple: Insects that look more like a leaf will be eaten less than insects that look less like a leaf. If an insect has a random change that makes them have features that look like veins, weather wear ect. Them and their offspring will be more likely to survive. Eventually all the less leaf like insects in the population will die out and the more leaf like insects will dominate the population. The same has happened with things like flowers that look and smell like certain insects getting pollinated more often, or a relitively harmless king snake being eaten less if it's mistaken for a venomous coral snake.
 
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Blayz

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Hello. First of all, I am not looking for a debate so much as I was wondering if some evolutionist could help me here since I do not claim to be a genius in evolutionary knowledge. Now then.

At the zoo a few days ago, we visited an insectarium. In there I got to see a bug.. well I actually didn't get to see it, it had to be grabbed and touched a little bit before I finally saw it. It was a bug that looked like a leaf..and by looked like I mean it was basically a leaf with legs. It had the vein skeleton, edge browning, fake weather damage, etc. It looked like a leaf, now my problem is, that my understanding of evolution is it is not precise nor do the organisms have any choice in mutations passed to their children. So how exactly could a creature evolve to look exactly like a leaf, it seems much too precise to happen with the means of random mutations and natural selection.

That's because you are (and it's a common mistake) forgetting to understand the very non random "natural selection" at the end of the sentence.

random mutation, with natural selection.

In the case of the bug in question, one would have thought that the less leaf like bugs were more likely to be noticed by predators, and eaten. So you have some random mutation with more and less leaf like bugs, followed by the less leaf like ones being eaten more often.

And note, the improved fitness doesn't have to be huge. Even if slightly more leaf like is a 0.1% advantage, give it a few thousand generations...or even years, and it will come to dominate the population. This scenario explains why black peppered moths came to dominate their population during the industrial revolution
 
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The Barbarian

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There are, BTW, still all degrees of similarity in existing insects, each of them to some degree, useful.

Any mutation that makes the illusion better would tend to be preserved, because insects with that mutation would tend to be missed more than the others.

And that's all it takes.
 
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ttreg

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I've been wondering this too.
So like the Venus Fly Trap, it was just random mutations that gave it the ability to digest insects and have a closing trap to trap the insects?
What I find sorta hard to think of, and the OP i think would too, is that mutations gave it the perfect ability to be so good at whatever the organism is good at.
 
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huggybear

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Hello. First of all, I am not looking for a debate so much as I was wondering if some evolutionist could help me here since I do not claim to be a genius in evolutionary knowledge. Now then.

At the zoo a few days ago, we visited an insectarium. In there I got to see a bug.. well I actually didn't get to see it, it had to be grabbed and touched a little bit before I finally saw it. It was a bug that looked like a leaf..and by looked like I mean it was basically a leaf with legs. It had the vein skeleton, edge browning, fake weather damage, etc. It looked like a leaf, now my problem is, that my understanding of evolution is it is not precise nor do the organisms have any choice in mutations passed to their children. So how exactly could a creature evolve to look exactly like a leaf, it seems much too precise to happen with the means of random mutations and natural selection.

that is a good example of intelligent design, but all you ever hear are vain unverifiable explanations like this
posted by impalor ,,,Insects that look more like a leaf will be eaten less than insects that look less like a leaf. If an insect has a random change that makes them have features that look like veins, weather wear ect. Them and their offspring will be more likely to survive

i am dumbfounded that people are able to believe this type of NS without question , first off how does the organism even know to turn into a leaf for protection in the first place?, how does it even know that leaves exist or what they look like ,to be able to turn into one? the only answer youll get to a question like that is, " der evolution doesnt have to know what it is doing" im still waiting for an answer to the question of where the genetic information comes from in the first place,

it is absolutely ridiculous that NS is used to explain everything in the earth, there are so many things that are too specific to be able to be put down to reproductive success, the whole theory is based on the sad supposition that it is impossible for a higher force to exist, this is where science has gone wrong, and it has tried to explain everything without god for some 150years now without any success at all

all in all this is a great example of intelligent design
 
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anonymous1515

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Well, the very distant ancestors of the venus fly trap probably didn't have such highly developed traps. Early venus fly traps were probably a little sticky or something, and as the crappier (or less sticky) traps started getting weeded out of the population, the better traps started to dominate. Slowly they began to develop tactile responses to stimuli (to close the trap). Also, one random mutation wouldn't generate a perfect trap. It probably happened over a very very long time, with little increments along the way.

Again, just speculation. I would like to read a paper on the evolutionary history of the trap and see if anybody knows how it developed.
 
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Danyc

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that is a good example of intelligent design, but all you ever hear are vain unverifiable explanations like this

You call it an unverifiable explanation as a derogatory term, then in the same exact sentence say it is a good example of intelligent design? Are you not sensing the irony here?


i am dumbfounded that people are able to believe this type of NS without question[/quote]

Some people believe things without question. The scientists and evolutionary biologists who are working in this field will not accept anything without question; they want evidence that these insects evolved a certain way. I would as well.

, first off how does the organism even know to turn into a leaf for protection in the first place?, how does it even know that leaves exist or what they look like ,to be able to turn into one?


Ok, look. This is really simple. Here are the steps that this would take. Please read this through, this is really easy to understand. I mean, the entire thing. Read it all before you reply to it. You should probably even read it twice.

Step 1. A single specimen of an insect has a random mutation (yes, these mutations are random. It is important for you to understad which parts of evolution are random and which are not)

2. This mutation causes the insect's exoskeleton to be tinged a greenish colour. So, a colour change. A simple, one step act of evolution. We now have a green insect.

3. This insect is living in en environment where green things are harder to see; say, tree leaves. This insect lives in the trees.

4. Because it has become, with its mutation, a little bit harder to see by predators than it's comrades (the other insects of its species that are still, say, black), it follows logically that this specific green insect would have a higher chance of survival than it's brothers, who are black, and easily seen by predators.

5. The green insect lives on to reproduce. It mates with another insect of its species and their offspring are also green, like it was.

6. Rememberr that in their environment, it and its offspring (say, 10 new green insects) are the only green insects in this species. As they live safely in the trees, difficult to see by predators, they watch as their black brothers are dying around them, being eaten by the predators that can easily see their black bodies against the green leaves.

7. Soon, as the green insect's offspring reproduce, there are many more green insects. Say, a thousand green insects. Meanwhile, less and less black insects are reproducing because they are being eaten. While the number of black insects slowly goes down due to being eaten by predators and less rate of reproduction, the green insects flourish. Sure, a few specimens die here and there, but there are still many many green insects living in the trees.

8. Fast forward to 2 years later. The amount of black insects is, if not already completely gone, very, very low. The last of them are being killed by predators who can easily see them.

9. There have been more and more green insects living in the trees and each new generation is reproducing. Because they are not easily seen, they live on, and their chance of reproduction rises.

10. The last black insect is eaten. Now the black strain of this particular species of insect is all but extinct. It used to be all black, but now it is all green.

You have now seen how a population of once entirely black insects can become, in a short period of time (2 years, with insects is probably too long a period of time), a population of entirely green insects.

You may be wondering, "Yeah sure, but those leaf bugs have little veins and stuff on them too."

And I would reply to you, the same process as above will have been used. In a single creature, a mutation occurs, and that single creature is now diferent than all of the others. If it goeson to reproduce, its offpsring will have its mutation as well. If this mutation is at all beneficial, then its offspring will have a larger chance, however small, of reproducing than the general popualtion. This is what is called natural selection. The insects' situations selects those insects with a higher chance of surviving, and those insects will, in time, become the majority.

And one will again gain a mutation, and the process starts all over again.


The only way this process cannot happen, is if creatures do not have muattions, which is demonstrably untrue. Mutations happen all of the time. The above scenario happens all of the time, and that is what evolution is.










the only answer youll get to a question like that is, " der evolution doesnt have to know what it is doing" im still waiting for an answer to the question of where the genetic information comes from in the first place,

And the answer is correct. No, creatures have no knowledge, evolution has no knowledge, of what it will become, because evolution is not an entity, it is simply what happens when beneficial mutations are passed onto the next generations.

I understand that people often talk of evolution as if it is some sort of being or force that can control and decide what happens to thigs; of course, that view of evolution is ridiculous. Unfortunately, many people hold it.
 
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mpok1519

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camoflauge is a very interesting idea to biologists, and how these animals developed these kinds of defenses, and it stretches not only in insects but almost all kinds of classifications of animalia have creatures who use camoflauge defensively.

there are some kinda of poisonous octopi that can change colors; there is a kind of octopus that mimics a variety of other creatures, including sea-weed, snakes, lion-fish, and even jelly fish. How the heck does this octopus know that hes trying to mimic potentially dangerous creature for his own defense?

This is evience to me that animals have conscious minds, and intellegent sentience.

Intellegent design, though? Who knows.
 
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atomweaver

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camoflauge is a very interesting idea to biologists, and how these animals developed these kinds of defenses, and it stretches not only in insects but almost all kinds of classifications of animalia have creatures who use camoflauge defensively.

there are some kinda of poisonous octopi that can change colors; there is a kind of octopus that mimics a variety of other creatures, including sea-weed, snakes, lion-fish, and even jelly fish. How the heck does this octopus know that hes trying to mimic potentially dangerous creature for his own defense?

This is evience to me that animals have conscious minds, and intellegent sentience.

Many biologists and aquarists would agree, octopi are some of the most intelligent non-human critters on the planet, and its not just manifest in their ability to mimic... many have excellent deductive and problem-solving skills, some species express an interest in social interaction with their keepers, etc.
There is some suprising information out there, especially from aquarists about "bimac" octopi, which are very social animals. They're known to like to play "tug of war" with their keepers, using infant toys (rattles, etc). If the toy is kept in the tank, the bimac will grab it and tap the glass if the keeper is near, trying to entice a game. Another story I've heard is of a bimac that would pull the interior magnet off of a magnetic glass cleaner, to make the exterior piece crash to the ground... and then when its keeper came running at the sound of the crash, it would mimic the face of a laughing human.
 
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paug

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Danyc, nice post. It is strange, however, that you'd have to resort to a post such as yours to teach people what evolution actually is. Very very nicely done though.

And indeed, it's not like evolution is a "thing". It's just a name given to the collective sequence of events and that sequence's asymptote that come about when there are predators, prey and reproduction.
 
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Bombila

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You can see a parallel to earlier Venus Flytrap evolution in the Round Leaved Sundew. This Sundew is a common plant in North America. It has round flat leaves in a basal rosette. Each leaf is covered with hairs, and each hair exudes a drop of sticky fluid. Tiny insects which land on a Sundew leaf are trapped by the sticky fluid, and as the insect decomposes, nutrients are absorbed by the leaf.

The Pitcher Plants, another predatory group, have evolved yet another strategy from the same basic set of components. The leaves grow upright and tubular, often trumpet shaped. Instead of being sticky, the hairs on the leaf are clustered at the top, are stiff, and point downward. It's easy for an insect to crawl down into the leaf, but hard to climb out against the stiff hairs. Eventually, the insect falls to the little pool of rainwater and plant enzymes at the bottom of the leaf, and again the plant absorbs some nutrients from the insect bodies.

Many plants have parts that move. Most Sunflower species and many other flowering plants turn towards the sun as it moves through the day. Many flowers close their blossoms at night, and a few do the opposite. Many plants have seed ejection systems to send seed away from the parent plant.
 
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29apples

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it also important to realize that when someone refers to a "random mutation" it is not some magic brand new protein, but an existing protein that has been modified slightly.

also, most mutations are maladaptive. these things are incredible survival machines that have utilized millions of generations of adaptations to be where they are today. as a result many traits are at the top of curve of contribution to fecundity.
 
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Hespera

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that is a good example of intelligent design, but all you ever hear are vain unverifiable explanations like this


i am dumbfounded that people are able to believe this type of NS without question , first off how does the organism even know to turn into a leaf for protection in the first place?, how does it even know that leaves exist or what they look like ,to be able to turn into one? the only answer youll get to a question like that is, " der evolution doesnt have to know what it is doing" im still waiting for an answer to the question of where the genetic information comes from in the first place,

it is absolutely ridiculous that NS is used to explain everything in the earth, there are so many things that are too specific to be able to be put down to reproductive success, the whole theory is based on the sad supposition that it is impossible for a higher force to exist, this is where science has gone wrong, and it has tried to explain everything without god for some 150years now without any success at all

all in all this is a great example of intelligent design

Some people just cant get calculus explained to them either! You could try to explain it for 200 years and they still wont get it!

"first off how does the organism even know to turn into a leaf for protection in the first place?, how does it even know that leaves exist or what they look like ,to be able to turn into one?"

that is a false question. The insect knows nothing. But out of all the billions that are hatched every season, if some have an advantage, even a very small one, they will survive and reproduce better. That is so obvious that surely nobody will deny it.

It is also obvious that climate and other conditions have changed over the years. An insect "perfectly" adapted to one set of conditions wont be 'perfect" if it gets colder, hotter, wetter or drier, or it cant eat a new plant that has arrived. In fact, they might just all die off.... as has happened to a lot of organisms.

So God would have to keep doing new special creations over and over and over.... or he could let his critters do a bit of adjusting on their own, dont you think?

What if some grew thicker fur, or maybe white fur to match this new cold stuff that comes more and more each year. Out of a batch of puppies you get black,white, brown.... what if only the white ones survive?


To say that animals cant change according to which ones survive best would be to say that there have always been toy poodles.
 
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