LDS LDS---YIKES!

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mmksparbud

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I believe God tests people in different ways. It would not be easy to have more than one wife.

It's not easy to rob banks either! That's why God said don't do it! He never told anyone to have more than one wife to "test them"! God tells no one to go against His wishes. And please do not bother to bring up Abraham---that was a one shot deal with one person who knew exactly that it was God talking to him for he knew his God. It was not a general order for everyone to go around sacrificing their children!
There was absolutely not one reason for JS, or anyone else, to have more than one wife except for lechery. In order to get a young girl he came up with this and poor Emma had to go along with it or be destroyed! And you guys can't see that????
Hey, guess what---there is this beautiful diamond ring I want and guess what---God told me we are to obtain diamond rings in order to get into His kingdom no matter who they belong to! Hand it over or die.
Right....
 
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D.A. Wright

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I believe God tests people in different ways. It would not be easy to have more than one wife.
It’s like we're not even speaking the same language. "Thou shalt not commit adultery." It doesn't get much more simple than that. Except for, maybe, "See Spot run." Are you actually suggesting that God actively utilizes adultery as character building?
 
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He is the way

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It’s like we're not even speaking the same language. "Thou shalt not commit adultery." It doesn't get much more simple than that. Except for, maybe, "See Spot run." Are you actually suggesting that God actively utilizes adultery as character building?
So are you saying that Jacob committed adultery?:
Adultery:
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

Having more than one wife does not constitute adultery.
 
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mmksparbud

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So are you saying that Jacob committed adultery?:
Adultery:
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

Having more than one wife does not constitute adultery.

Not then. In the NT it says one wife. More than that now does constitute adultery.
 
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D.A. Wright

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So are you saying that Jacob committed adultery?:
Adultery:
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

Having more than one wife does not constitute adultery.
Thank you for opening my eyes.

Why didn't I see it before?

The key to purity and fidelity in inter-sexual intimacy is found mainly in keeping well-organized records. And, taken narrowly and literally, the commandment prohibiting adultery implies license to fornicate and commit perversions of countless possibilities.

We're all free to slake our lusts at last!

(I'm trying so hard to be patient, but when grown human beings, made a little lower than the angels, resort to such mental gymnastics to try to justify depravity and rebellion, well... I get a little... no, a lot... Have mercy, Lord!)
 
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D.A. Wright

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I believe Mormon doctrine might be taking the (very important, by the way, since it is precisely what is meant by "being made in His image") command to be fruitful and multiply a bit too urgently.
 
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It's not easy to rob banks either! That's why God said don't do it! He never told anyone to have more than one wife to "test them"! God tells no one to go against His wishes. And please do not bother to bring up Abraham---that was a one shot deal with one person who knew exactly that it was God talking to him for he knew his God. It was not a general order for everyone to go around sacrificing their children!
Just for the record, may I suggest that God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac at all, but was teaching Abraham and all those who would come after him that He, Himself would provide The Only Acceptable Sacrifice?
Sorry to state something which will doubtless be plainly obvious to some, but I'm finding that I can never assume anything is understood or even suspected here.
 
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mmksparbud

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Just for the record, may I suggest that God never intended for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac at all, but was teaching Abraham and all those who would come after him that He, Himself would provide The Only Acceptable Sacrifice?
Sorry to state something which will doubtless be plainly obvious to some, but I'm finding that I can never assume anything is understood or even suspected here.

Yes--I know He never would have allowed the sacrifice. I knew they would bring it up!
 
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Peter1000

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You say that as though I am the only one that says that.

"God said to David that He gave David everything he currently had, his wealth, power, and authority and these had been too little He could have given David more. You assumed that God meant more wives, but that isn't what is stated. God could have made David emperor of many nations. God's point is that David had it all, so his taking another man's wife was all that more despicable. lThere is nothing in this passage that indicates God sanctioned polygamy."
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2011/02-14.htm

Not an SDA.
"At face value, this seems to suggest that God gave David multiple wives, and then stood ready to add to his harem with divine sanction. Of course, that’s precisely the problem with pressing Scripture into a wooden literal labyrinth, because—in truth—if Nathan’s words are anything at all, they are ironic. David had just murdered a man in order to have another woman appended to his harem. Despite the generosity of the very God who had made him sovereign ruler of the land, the king had stolen the wife of a servant and that to satisfy his carnal lust. Thus, in language that dripped with irony, Nathan the prophet pronounces judgment against Israel’s king. As such, 2 Samuel 12 hardly constitutes divine approval for the practice of polygamy."
https://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_out/does-2-samuel-12-approve-of-polygamy/

Also not SDA

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
8. I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives—The phraseology means nothing more than that God in His providence had given David, as king of Israel, everything that was Saul's. The history furnishes conclusive evidence that he never actually married any of the wives of Saul. But the harem of the preceding king belongs, according to Oriental notions, as a part of the regalia to his successor.
lust, David had to endure many days and years of extreme distress.Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And thy master's wives ... - According to Eastern custom, the royal harem was a part of the royal inheritance. The prophets spoke in such matters according to the received opinions of their day, and not always according to the abstract rule of right. (Compare Matthew 19:4-9.)
Benson Commentary
2 Samuel 12:8. I gave thee thy master’s house — All that pertained to him as a king, which came, of course, to David, as his successor. Thy master’s wives into thy bosom — For the wives of a king went along with his lands and goods unto his successor, it being unlawful for the widow of a king to be wife to any but a king, as appears by the story of Adonijah. The expression in the text, however, does not necessarily signify that David married any of them; nor have we any proof that he did. Indeed, it is doubtful whether he could consistently with the law of God. See Leviticus 18:8; Leviticus 18:15. The meaning seems only to be, that God put them into David’s power, together with Saul’s house and other property. And gave thee the house of Israel — Dominion over the twelve tribes. And if that had been too little, &c. — He needed but have asked, and God would have given him all he could have reasonably desired.
Matthew Poole's Commentary
Thy master’s wives, or, women, as that word is elsewhere used; as Numbers 31:18. And though we read not a word of God’s giving, or of David’s taking, any of Saul’s wives into his bosom; or, which is all one, into his bed; yet (which I think to be aimed at here) it might be according to the manner of that time, that the wives and concubines of the precedent king belonged to the successor, to be at least at his dispose. And to pretend to them, was interpreted little less than pretending to the crown; which made it fatal to Adonijah to ask Abishag, 1 Kings 2:23; and to Abner to be suspected for Rizpah, 2 Samuel 3:8. And Absalom, usurping the crown, usurped the concubines also; which is looked on as a crime unpardonable, 2 Samuel 16:21. Nor would this have been reckoned amongst the mercies and blessings which God here is said to give him, and which are opposed to that which he sinfully took. But we do read, that Merab, Saul’s daughter, was given to him for his wife by Saul’s promise, and consequently by God’s grant; though afterwards Saul perfidiously gave her to another man; and that Michal, the other daughter, was actually given to him, 1Sa 18. And it is very possible that some other of David’s wives were nearly related to the house of Saul; whereby David might design to enlarge and strengthen his interest in the kingdom; although there is no absolute necessity of restraining this to Saul, seeing the word is plural, masters, and may belong to others also, who sometimes were owned by David as his masters, lords, or superiors, such as Nabal was, and some others not elsewhere named might be, whose houses and wives, or, at least, women, God might give to David. Such and such things; such other things as thou hadst wanted, or in reason desired.


Lamech was just the first one that took pleural wives and you very well know that. I am still waiting for the verse where God told anyone to take more than one wife.
If God was so pleased with Abraham's 2nd wife why did He send her away? It had not been God's wish and we are still paying the price in the middle east for that decision. It brought pain to the 1st wife and disharmony in the marriages. Hanna's husband should have waited for God to answer according to His will. A 2nd wife was certainly never needed for children, Hannah got more than she did.
Just because something is mentioned in the bible does not mean God approved---after all---so is murder and rape and stealing and everything else that Godly men have at times done.
Yes, all of this commentary are people that are trying really hard to twist the scripture to not say what it actually says. God gave David his plural wives to his bosom. You said that God did not give David his wives. You are simply not right, according to the simple text of the scripture.

Now, I might believe you, and your commentaries, if this was a 1 time phenomena, but it was not. Plural marriage was a part of the culture of Israel, as seen from the Law of Moses. Here is a list of good people who practiced plural marriage as attested to by the OT text.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses?, Hannah (the mother of Samuel the prophet), Gideon (the hero of the Midianite battle and expulsion from Israel), David, Solomon, Saul. And this is only off the top of my head. As you will note, you have prophets of God, kings appointed by God, and interestingly enough, you have regular people. Then there are the statutes that govern plural marriages, so you know it reached into the fabric of their society, all under the loving care of God. (read the story of Hannah, the plural wife of Elkanah, a rather common Israelite, and mother of Samuel the prophet, you will like it 1 Samuel 1)
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes, all of this commentary are people that are trying really hard to twist the scripture to not say what it actually says. God gave David his plural wives to his bosom. You said that God did not give David his wives. You are simply not right, according to the simple text of the scripture.

Now, I might believe you, and your commentaries, if this was a 1 time phenomena, but it was not. Plural marriage was a part of the culture of Israel, as seen from the Law of Moses. Here is a list of good people who practiced plural marriage as attested to by the OT text.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses?, Hannah (the mother of Samuel the prophet), Gideon (the hero of the Midianite battle and expulsion from Israel), David, Solomon, Saul. And this is only off the top of my head. As you will note, you have prophets of God, kings appointed by God, and interestingly enough, you have regular people. Then there are the statutes that govern plural marriages, so you know it reached into the fabric of their society, all under the loving care of God. (read the story of Hannah, the plural wife of Elkanah, a rather common Israelite, and mother of Samuel the prophet, you will like it 1 Samuel 1)

Abraham had to give up the 2nd wife, Isaac had only one wife, there is absolutely no mention of more than one wife. Jacob brought much misery by having 2 wives which was passed down to his children---it was an unhappy household. There is no proof that Moses had more than one wife at a time. Hannah was miserable, the 2nd wife caused nothing but trouble for her and had her husband waited for God ( he had a 2nd wife for children, Hannah was barren), she had plenty of children. Gideon also brought a lot of trouble into the home the children of one of his other wives Abimelech, was evil to the core. Saul, David, Solomon all had troubled households due to the wives and the many children all fighting and killing each other. Kings had many wives due to pacts with other countries. And just because someone had more than one wife does not in any way mean that God approved! The good and the bad are told in the bible---doesn't mean we are to do what is bad---just because David murdered doesn't mean we are also to do so! God made only one woman for Adam. All of that is moot anyway for Paul said one wife!!
 
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mmksparbud

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That scripture was not for everyone.


LOL!! You can't be a bishop, or an elder or anyone in authority with more than one wife (which would have disqualified JS and BY) and all these people are elected from the laity!! We are all Priests of God now and need only 1 spouse.
 
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He is the way

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Thank you for opening my eyes.

Why didn't I see it before?

The key to purity and fidelity in inter-sexual intimacy is found mainly in keeping well-organized records. And, taken narrowly and literally, the commandment prohibiting adultery implies license to fornicate and commit perversions of countless possibilities.

We're all free to slake our lusts at last!

(I'm trying so hard to be patient, but when grown human beings, made a little lower than the angels, resort to such mental gymnastics to try to justify depravity and rebellion, well... I get a little... no, a lot... Have mercy, Lord!)
There have been times when God has allowed polygamy, but it was not to follow the lusts of the world. At the present time polygamy is not allowed.
 
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D.A. Wright

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That scripture was not for everyone.
Perhaps, but it's not wholly irrelevant, either, especially for those who reconize the priesthood of all believers.
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes, all of this commentary are people that are trying really hard to twist the scripture to not say what it actually says. God gave David his plural wives to his bosom. You said that God did not give David his wives. You are simply not right, according to the simple text of the scripture.

Now, I might believe you, and your commentaries, if this was a 1 time phenomena, but it was not. Plural marriage was a part of the culture of Israel, as seen from the Law of Moses. Here is a list of good people who practiced plural marriage as attested to by the OT text.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses?, Hannah (the mother of Samuel the prophet), Gideon (the hero of the Midianite battle and expulsion from Israel), David, Solomon, Saul. And this is only off the top of my head. As you will note, you have prophets of God, kings appointed by God, and interestingly enough, you have regular people. Then there are the statutes that govern plural marriages, so you know it reached into the fabric of their society, all under the loving care of God. (read the story of Hannah, the plural wife of Elkanah, a rather common Israelite, and mother of Samuel the prophet, you will like it 1 Samuel 1)

And by the way---out of millions of Jews---there were very few who actually practiced polygamy.




POLYGAMY:
By: Executive Committee of the Editorial Board., Julius H. Greenstone

The fact or condition of having more than one wife or husband at a time; usually, the practise of having a plurality of wives. While there is no evidence of a polyandrous state in primitive Jewish society, polygamy seems to have been a well-established institution, dating from the most ancient times and extending to comparatively modern days. The Law indeed regulated and limited this usage; and the Prophets and the scribes looked upon it with disfavor. Still all had to recognize its existence, and not until late was it completely abolished. At no time, however, was it practised so much among the Israelites as among other nations; and the tendency in Jewish social life was always toward Monogamy.

That the ideal state of human society, in the mind of the primitive Israelite, was a monogamous one is clearly evinced by the fact that the first man (Adam) was given only one wife, and that the first instance of bigamy occurred in the family of the cursed Cain (Gen. iv. 19). Noah and his sons also are recorded as having only one wife each (ib. vi. 7, 13). Abraham had only one wife; and he was persuaded to marry his slave Hagar (ib. xvi. 2, 3; see Pilegesh) only at the urgent request of his wife, who deemed herself barren. Isaac had only one wife. Jacob married two sisters, because he was deceived by his father-in-law, Laban (ib. xxix. 23-30). He, too, married his wives' slaves at the request of his wives, who wished to have children (ib. xxx. 4, 9). The sons of Jacob as well as Moses and Aaron seem to have lived in monogamy. Among the Judges, however, polygamy was practised, as it was also among the rich and the nobility (Judges viii. 30; comp. ib. xii. 9, 14; I Chron. ii. 26, iv. 5, viii. 8). Elkanah, the father of Samuel, had two wives, probably because the first (Hannah) was childless (I Sam. i. 2). The tribe of Issachar was noted for its practise of polygamy (I Chron. vii. 4). Caleb had two concubines (ib. ii. 46, 48). David and Solomon had many wives (II Sam. v. 13; I Kings xi. 1-3), a custom which was probably followed by all the later kings of Judah and of Israel (comp. I Kings xx. 3; also the fact that the names of the mothers of most of the kings are mentioned). Jehoiada gave to Joash two wives only (II Chron. xxiv. 3).

see Husband and Wife), even after he had taken another wife; and if they were withheld from her, she had to be set free (Ex. xxi. 9-11; see Slaves). One who lived in bigamy might not show his preference for the children of the more favored wife by depriving the first-born son of the less favored one of his rights of inheritance (Deut. xxi. 15-17; see Inheritance). The king should not "multiply wives" (ib. xvii. 17; comp. Sanh. 21a, where the number is limited to 18, 24, or 48, according to the various interpretations given to II Sam. xii. 8); and the high priest is, according to the rabbinic interpretation of Lev. xxi. 13, commanded to take one wife only (Yeb. 59a; comp. Yoma 2a).

Ketubah, which was introduced by the Rabbis, still further discouraged polygamy; and subsequent enactments of the Geonim (see Müller's "Mafteaḥ," p. 282, Berlin, 1891) tended to restrict this usage.

see Bigamy); but this was in very rare cases only, and the consent of 100 learned men of three different states was required (see Insanity). While in the case of the 'Agunah one witness who testifies to the death of her husband is sufficient to permit the woman to remarry, in the case of the woman's disappearance some authorities ("Bet Shemuel" on Eben ha-'Ezer, 158, 1; 15, 20) are of the opinion that the testimony of one witness is not sufficient to permit the husband to remarry (see Fassel, "Mishpete El; Das Mosaisch-Rabbinische Civilrecht,"§§ 63, 112, Nagy-Kanizsa, 1852). Later authorities, however, permit him to remarry even when there is only one witness to testify to the death of his wife, and even when that witness did not know her personally, providing that after he had described the deceased woman the husband recognized the description as that of his wife ("Noda' Bihudah," series ii., Eben ha-'Ezer, 7, 8; comp. "Ḥatam Sofer" on Eben ha-'Ezer, responsum 2; "Pitḥe Teshubah" on Eben ha-'Ezer, 1, 10).

POLYGAMY - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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There have been times when God has allowed polygamy, but it was not to follow the lusts of the world. At the present time polygamy is not allowed.
That's ridiculous. It goes on all over the world.
 
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mmksparbud

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There have been times when God has allowed polygamy, but it was not to follow the lusts of the world. At the present time polygamy is not allowed.

It was never His wish. Allowing is not condoning!
 
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Peter1000

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Thank you for opening my eyes.

Why didn't I see it before?

The key to purity and fidelity in inter-sexual intimacy is found mainly in keeping well-organized records. And, taken narrowly and literally, the commandment prohibiting adultery implies license to fornicate and commit perversions of countless possibilities.

We're all free to slake our lusts at last!

(I'm trying so hard to be patient, but when grown human beings, made a little lower than the angels, resort to such mental gymnastics to try to justify depravity and rebellion, well... I get a little... no, a lot... Have mercy, Lord!)
So answering 'he is the way's' question, are all those that are recorded in the OT that practiced plural marriage also committed adultery?
 
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mmksparbud

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So answering 'he is the way's' question, are all those that are recorded in the OT that practiced plural marriage also committed adultery?

That it was not adultery in the OT has already been stated. Which still did not mean God approved of it. It became adultery once God said through Paul---one wife.
 
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