LDS LDS, The Father, and the Trinity

[rockytopva]

In Joseph Smith's first vision he tells of meeting up with God the Father. Which is an impossibility...

17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. - Exodus 33

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. - 1 John 4:12

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. - John 1:18

So Joseph Smith's first vision is a total lie. It was impossible for him to meet face to face with God the Father. That in itself ought to make anyone flee the LDS doctrine. And the trinity are three persons in one... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.
Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Matthew 3:16-17 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Philippians 2:5-6 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
John 1:1-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 -Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

 

[ChetSinger]

I have another one. Below is 1 Peter 1:1-2, one of my favorites:

From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.

May grace and peace be lavished on you as you grow in the rich knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord! - 1 Peter 1:1-2 NET Bible

In the first verse, Jesus is God. In the second verse, he is also distinct from God. That is, he is both.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So Joseph Smith's first vision is a total lie. It was impossible for him to meet face to face with God the Father. That in itself ought to make anyone flee the LDS doctrine.

Now I am not a Mormon but for the sake of fairness I would have to say you are not entirely correct. Yes, nobody can see the face of God and live. That is...if God was revealed in his full glory. We read in in Scripture where Jacob wrestled with God and was later renamed Israel. Obviously he had to see God's face. Abraham also met with God when he was told he would have a son and Sarah laughed. So it is completely possible to see the face of God, just not in his full glory.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Now I am not a Mormon but for the sake of fairness I would have to say you are not entirely correct. Yes, nobody can see the face of God and live. That is...if God was revealed in his full glory. We read in in Scripture where Jacob wrestled with God and was later renamed Israel. Obviously he had to see God's face. Abraham also met with God when he was told he would have a son and Sarah laughed. So it is completely possible to see the face of God, just not in his full glory.

That's not what scripture says so what is fair about telling them something is not in scripture when it is. That's worse than unfair.

 

[rockytopva]

Now I am not a Mormon but for the sake of fairness I would have to say you are not entirely correct. Yes, nobody can see the face of God and live. That is...if God was revealed in his full glory. We read in in Scripture where Jacob wrestled with God and was later renamed Israel. Obviously he had to see God's face. Abraham also met with God when he was told he would have a son and Sarah laughed. So it is completely possible to see the face of God, just not in his full glory.

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? -1 Kings 8:27
1 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. - Genesis 32

Jacob wrestled with a figure sent from God, therefore as it was sent of God he wrestled with God, but not with God the Father himself...

 

[ChetSinger]

Now I am not a Mormon but for the sake of fairness I would have to say you are not entirely correct. Yes, nobody can see the face of God and live. That is...if God was revealed in his full glory. We read in in Scripture where Jacob wrestled with God and was later renamed Israel. Obviously he had to see God's face. Abraham also met with God when he was told he would have a son and Sarah laughed. So it is completely possible to see the face of God, just not in his full glory.

Perhaps I'll be saying the same thing: as I've been taught we can see God's physical manifestation, which is his Word. But we cannot see the Father Himself. Jesus once said that Abraham saw him, and in Genesis 18, YHWH does appear to Abraham as a man, even eating human food. A bit later, during the destruction of Sodom in Genesis 19:24, there are two YHWHs. As explained by several church fathers, the one is in heaven is YHWH the Father and the one on earth is YHWH the Son.

And then there's this:

I charge you before God who gives life to all things and Christ Jesus who made his good confession before Pontius Pilate,

to obey this command without fault or failure until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ

– whose appearing the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will reveal at the right time.

He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

In sum, I agree with rockytopva: it was impossible for any OT figure, or Joseph Smith for that matter, to see the face of the Father. Rather, they saw His Word, who was later born as Jesus of Nazareth.

Btw, "Word theology", the belief that YHWH's Word appeared on earth and accomplished physical tasks was popular in early Judaism. Here are a couple of examples from Targum Pseudo-Jonathan:

And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the repose of the day...

...And they coming entered, male and female, of all flesh unto him, as the Lord had instructed him; and the Word of the Lord covered over the door of the ark upon the face thereof.

This was one way they reconciled how God was both an unseeable spirit in heaven and also a physical presence here on earth. We now call them the Father and the Son.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? -1 Kings 8:27
1 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. - Genesis 32

Jacob wrestled with a figure sent from God, therefore as it was sent of God he wrestled with God, but not with God the Father himself...

Then why does "Israel" mean "wrestled with God" and not "wrestled with a servant sent by God"? Did not Adam and Eve see God in the Garden of Eden?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) except the Lord Jesus Christ. In Exodus 33:20, God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” These Scriptures seem to contradict other Scriptures which describe various people “seeing” God. For example, Exodus 33:11 describes Moses speaking to God “face to face.” How could Moses speak with God “face to face” if no one can see God's face and live? In this instance, the phrase “face to face” is a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. God and Moses were speaking to each other as if they were two human beings having a close conversation.

In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw God appearing as a man; he did not truly see God. Samson’s parents were terrified when they realized they had seen God (Judges 13:22), but they had only seen Him appearing as an angel. Jesus was God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14) so when people saw Him, they were seeing God. So, yes, God can be “seen” and many people have “seen” God. At the same time, no one has ever seen God revealed in all His glory. In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would be consumed and destroyed. Therefore, God veils Himself and appears in forms in which we can “see” Him. However, this is different than seeing God with all His glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of God, images of God, and appearances of God, but no one has ever seen God in all His fullness (Exodus 33:20).

 

[rockytopva]

Then why does "Israel" mean "wrestled with God" and not "wrestled with a servant sent by God"? Did not Adam and Eve see God in the Garden of Eden?

And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. - Genesis 3:8

No man has seen the face of God the Father. We have seen him working through people, including the Lord Jesus Christ, but not the face of God.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Exodus 33:11(NIV) "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

 

[rockytopva]

Exodus 33:11(NIV) "The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.

The whole passage...

11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: - Exodus 33

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Bible tells us that no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) except the Lord Jesus Christ. In Exodus 33:20, God declares, “You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” These Scriptures seem to contradict other Scriptures which describe various people “seeing” God. For example, Exodus 33:11 describes Moses speaking to God “face to face.” How could Moses speak with God “face to face” if no one can see God's face and live? In this instance, the phrase “face to face” is a figure of speech indicating they were in very close communion. God and Moses were speaking to each other as if they were two human beings having a close conversation.

It would be interesting to go to the original Hebrew and see what specific word was used and if they are the same. I can't do it right now, but if someone could, that would be awesome.

But no I do not think face to face is the same.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Question....out of curiosity....have any Mormons participated in this thread? I just think it is interesting that only non-mormons have participated in a thread about Mormonism. Lol

 

[Ironhold]

Question....out of curiosity....have any Mormons participated in this thread? I just think it is interesting that only non-mormons have participated in a thread about Mormonism. Lol

Sadly, that's how it usually goes: our critics talk to everyone but us in deciding what we supposedly believe.

That being said, let's consider John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Here, Jesus is praying that his followers will literally experience the exact same kind of unity that Jesus has with the Father. This is no metaphor; he wants a literal situation to occur.

This raises all sorts of questions when one considers the standard three-in-one concept of the Trinity, questions that those critics who I have spoken with have either ignored or attempted to logic around by way of questionable philosophy (some of which was more in keeping with pagan philosophy than early Christian philosophy).

Also, 1 John 5:7 is problematic because it represents the Johanine Comma, a section of the Bible that is controversial because there is evidence to indicate that at least part of it is a later addition rather than a portion of the original Biblical text. As such, this passage is problematic for someone who wishes to defend the standard three-in-one concept. Despite this, the vast majority of three-in-one Christians I've seen cite it as their primary, if not only, defense of the concept.

 

[Jane_Doe]

In Joseph Smith's first vision he tells of meeting up with God the Father. Which is an impossibility...

17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. - Exodus 33

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. - 1 John 4:12

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. - John 1:18

So Joseph Smith's first vision is a total lie. It was impossible for him to meet face to face with God the Father. That in itself ought to make anyone flee the LDS doctrine. And the trinity are three persons in one... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one.
Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Matthew 3:16-17 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
John 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Philippians 2:5-6 - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
John 1:1-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 -Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Clarification question for the OP: in the previous thread, we were talking about the Trinity, particularly in regards to the Biblical-ness of co-substantaion.

However this post seems that you don't want to talk about the Trinity per say, but rather "is it possible for JS to have physically seen the Father".

Am I correct in your change of topic here? (I want to make sure I got the topic right so I can try to stay on it).

 

[rockytopva]

Clarification question for the OP: in the previous thread, we were talking about the Trinity, particularly in regards to the Biblical-ness of co-substantaion.

However this post seems that you don't want to talk about the Trinity per say, but rather "is it possible for JS to have physically seen the Father".

Am I correct in your change of topic here? (I want to make sure I got the topic right so I can try to stay on it).

Well... We were talking trinity on the angel thread. So this new thread is for the trinity. In which case I say Joseph Smith did not see God the Father.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Clarification question for the OP: in the previous thread, we were talking about the Trinity, particularly in regards to the Biblical-ness of co-substantaion.

However this post seems that you don't want to talk about the Trinity per say, but rather "is it possible for JS to have physically seen the Father".

Am I correct in your change of topic here? (I want to make sure I got the topic right so I can try to stay on it).

I believe you are correct.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Well... We were talking trinity on the angel thread. So this new thread is for the trinity. In which case I say Joseph Smith did not see God the Father.

So you did want to switch topics then to "Did Joseph Smith see the Father", and not have anything directly to do with the Trinity then?

 

[rockytopva]

So you did want to switch topics then to "Did Joseph Smith see the Father", and not have anything directly to do with the Trinity then?

Well the Father is part of the trinity. "Did Joseph Smith see the Father", LDS, Trinity... All the same. In which apparently JS was talking to God the Father face to face, which could never have happened...

 

[rockytopva]

So you did want to switch topics then to "Did Joseph Smith see the Father", and not have anything directly to do with the Trinity then?

Both are the same topics.