LDS & RLDS/CoC: How they differ....

[Nehi]

I know we have at least one Community of Christ (CoC) attender, Jenda, who regularly posts here, perhaps there are others.

I am interested in the differences between the Latter Day Saints (LDS) and the Reorganized LDS (RLDS) / Community of Christ (CoC), especially where RLDS/CoC are closer to mainstream Christianity in doctrine and practice.

Here are some distinctive LDS doctrines and practices, my question is whether these are also found in RLDS/CoC doctrine and practice.

[1] Proxy baptism
[2] Temple marriage
[3] Temple recommend required to enter the temple
[4] Signs and Tokens that are sacred/not to be revealed to outsiders
[5] Prohibition of caffeine, etc. (I.e. Word of Wisdom)
[6] Wearing of special garments to remind one of their covenants
[7] Celestial/eternal marriage
[8] Existence of both a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother
[9] Acceptance of the Book of Abraham as scripture.
[10] Elders who are unmarried and less than 25 years old.

NOTE: This thread is not to debate these points. My interest is the extent to which the Reorganized LDS disctance themselves from LDS in these points and other areas. Also, as is helpful, I'd like an explanation of why the RLDS/CoC do not practice/adopt these.

Lets make this informative. Others are welcome to inquire about other differences, but please be civil so this thread will stay on track.

~ NEHI

 

[A New Dawn]

Well, I see someone has finally gotten tired of hearing me say "I am not LDS".

First off, RLDS stands for REORGANIZED Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints (not reformed).

Out of your list, the only things I can comment on that we would accept in the RLDS church would be the Word of Wisdom, ordination of men/women less than 25 years of age, and, of course, our Heavenly Father. However, our beliefs surrounding these issues is quite different than the LDS.

We believe the Word of Wisdom (WoW) to be a word of wisdom. It is not a commandment, and only those who feel "called" to follow it do. We don't use our temples for the same purposes the LDS do, and don't require a recommend to enter them, in fact, anyone can participate with us in the worship, and other activities, that are provided there. I, myself, follow the WoW to some degree, I don't interpret it as strictly as others in my church, which, even though we aren't commanded to follow it, many of those that do place a much more strict interpretation on it than the LDS do. I followed it much closer a year, or so, ago, than I do now.

Ordination in the RLDS/CoC is much different than the LDS, also. We believe that only those who are called (and the callings have to be confirmed by at least 2 other individuals) receive the priesthood. They could be 16, or they could be 50, or 90, or anywhere in between. No one automatically gets called. The men (and women)(although I, personally, do not believe in women in the priesthood) who are called, often serve in that calling all their life. Some are called to other offices, but it is not a progression. Often, though (but not always), one is ordained into the Aaronic Priesthood first, then the MP, if another call comes through.

We believe in God, our Heavenly Father, though we don't have a concept of a Heavenly Mother, as we do not believe that spirits were procreated that way.

Most of the other things you mentioned came into the church in the later years, the years after the church had moved to Nauvoo. We do not believe that those "ordinances" were "of God". The scriptures clearly state that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall His word be established, and most of those ordinances are only found in one place.

 

[Nehi]

Thanks for the correction... Reorganized LDS. Got it now.

Excellent post.

We believe in God, our Heavenly Father, though we don't have a concept of a Heavenly Mother, as we do not believe that spirits were procreated that way.

So, LDS "pre-mortal" theology is not embraced by RLDS either. What is the RLDS view on the origin of the soul?

BTW, mainstream Christianity views the soul as either directly created by God (creationism) or produced as a part of the procreative process which was designed by God (traducianism). My guess is RLDS are closer to the former view. LDS, I take it, believe that souls are procreated by their Heavenly Parents.

Fascinating stuff. The differences in the priesthood are dramatic. Has the RLDS always allowed women to hold priesthood office or is this a newer development.

~ NEHI (who happens to be a traducianist)

 

[A New Dawn]

So, LDS "pre-mortal" theology is not embraced by RLDS either. What is the RLDS view on the origin of the soul?

BTW, mainstream Christianity views the soul as either directly created by God (creationism) or produced as a part of the procreative process which was designed by God (traducianism). My guess is RLDS are closer to the former view. LDS, I take it, believe that souls are procreated by their Heavenly Parents.

Fascinating stuff. The differences in the priesthood are dramatic. Has the RLDS always allowed women to hold priesthood office or is this a newer development.

~ NEHI (who happens to be a traducianist)

We believe that we existed spiritually before we came here, but I would say that it would be the former. (Especially since I don't know what other procreative process (aside from the LDS view) there is.) Sorry.

The priesthood was opened to women in 1984, the first ones were ordained in '85. The RLDS Restorationists (of which I am one) do not believe in women in the priesthood, and it was over this practice that they finally split from the church.

 

[Nehi]

Fascinating, again.

Hey, what are the major differences in the LDS and RLDS/CoC concept of God?

I know your church does not accept a Heavenly Mother concept.
- do you believe humans can become gods (exaltaltation)?
- do you believe Adam was God (as did Joseph in the King Follet Discourse)?

Also, what are the key differences in what is accepted as scripture?
- Do you have the same content in the BoM, D&C, PoGP?
- Do you accept the LDS Articles of Faith?

As a "restoration" church at what point do the RLDS believe the LDS stopped restoring and added unaccceptable doctrines and practices.

What is your church's view of Emma Smith? Brigham Young?

~ NEHI (the curious)

 

[A New Dawn]

Fascinating, again.

Hey, what are the major differences in the LDS and RLDS/CoC concept of God?

I know your church does not accept a Heavenly Mother concept.
- do you believe humans can become gods (exaltaltation)?
- do you believe Adam was God (as did Joseph in the King Follet Discourse)?

This stuff all came into the church during the Nauvoo period (the last settlement that the saints gathered into before JS was killed). By that time, we (the RLDS) believe that Joseph had more or less stopped letting himself be used as a prophet and was working more off his own ego, maybe helped along by those who were more interested in what they could gain for themselves than what God desired of His people.

IOW, we do not believe in exaltation (or exaltaltation ), and we do not believe that Adam was God. We do believe (or at least some of us) that Adam was Michael the archangel.

Also, what are the key differences in what is accepted as scripture?
- Do you have the same content in the BoM, D&C, PoGP?
- Do you accept the LDS Articles of Faith?

We do not accept some of the books in the PoGP. We accept the Book of Moses (and it is incorporated into our Genesis), but we do not accept the Book of Abraham. (Is there anything else in the PoGP?)

The Book of Mormons are the same except for some minor differences. The LDS changed the versification from the original in order to shorten the chapters back in the early 1900's. And our BoM still says "white and delightsome".

The D&C is quite different, though. (Someone just PM'ed me about this and I answered it there not 15 minutes ago. ) It is almost identical to the LDS D&C up through LDS section 107 (minus 2 or 3 sections which we have in church history as opposed to the D&C), and after that, the LDS add about 30 more sections by Joseph Smith, of which only about 7 do we have in ours. The ones that they add are from the Nauvoo period which outlines celestial marriage, exaltation (or exaltaltation (sorry, Nehi :o )), baptism for the dead, etc. The Sections that we have by Joseph Smith end at section 112, and we have continued to add revelations given by the prophets of our church, totalling 161 at present. (I do not recognize the last 15, or so, as revelations.)

When you ask if we accept the Articles of Faith, you are getting into a sticky situation. Are you asking about the RLDS church as it traditionally taught, or how the CoC teaches now?

As a "restoration" church at what point do the RLDS believe the LDS stopped restoring and added unaccceptable doctrines and practices.

We need to look at what "restoration" means, because it means different things to different people. IMO, the "restoration" was to restore the teachings, ordinances and priesthood authority of the original church established by Christ. Within the first 5-6 years, I believe that all that God wanted "restored" had been taken care of. The rest which came in the Nauvoo period, was not "restoration" because it hadn't been present on the earth before. It is hard to restore something that is new. So, I would have to say that by 1838 (give or take a year), the church was starting to add new, unacceptable practices.

What is your church's view of Emma Smith? Brigham Young?

~ NEHI (the curious)

Emma was a saint in training.

I will take the 5th on Brigham.

 

[Nehi]

exaltaltation

OK, exaltation (single alt) gets you to the terrestrial kingdom and exaltaltation(double alt)gets you into the celestial kingdom... and NEHI gets exationed (no alt) to the telestial kingdom.

By that time, we (the RLDS) believe that Joseph had more or less stopped letting himself be used as a prophet and was working more off his own ego, maybe helped along by those who were more interested in what they could gain for themselves than what God desired of His people.

Guess that plays into your comment...

Emma was a saint in training.

I have great sympathy for her, especially when D&C 132 was announced to her (a section that the RLDS, I presume, reject as revelation.)

Are you asking about the RLDS church as it traditionally taught, or how the CoC teaches now?

How has this changed? Nehi, likes exploring sticky areas.

The rest which came in the Nauvoo period

What happened to make Navoo a point of demarcation (sp ?)?

===
One final question for this post:

Do most new RLDS/CoC come from former LDS or from outside LDS circles? Seems to me that RLDS has fewer "novelties" from an outsider's perspective.

~ NEHI (Kudos to Jenda for her helping a non exaltalted outsider)

 

[A New Dawn]

How has this changed? Nehi, likes exploring sticky areas.

The RLDS church has always had an identity problem. We have always had to explain to people who we weren't, instead of who we were. Someone once described us as the "religious world's best-kept secret". Anyway, some time ago (probably close to 50 years now) some of the leaders of the church decided they felt they needed to liberalize (or mainstream) the church. They had to wait for a new (push-over) prophet, but in 1959, or so, they got their wish. W. Wallace Smith (grandson of Joseph Smith, Jr.) became prophet, and being new, and timid, he looked to some of the more traveled leaders of the church to help him. And they decided to go wild. Many of the leadership, at the cost of the church, went to St. Paul's Theological Seminary in Kansas City (the very bastion of liberalness.) After several years, they hired some of the "professors" (or whatever they call them) to come to the church and teach there, which they did for a couple of years. So they got a good liberal education under their belt and decided it was time to work on the church. Because of their embarassment with the BoM and having to be a member of a restoration church, they decided to make the church a mainstream protestant church. In order to do this, they first needed to change the church school curriculum, so they got together and decided what they wanted the church to look like and created a set of papers to work from. These papers were leaked to some of the general church membership by a couple of people in the meetings who were not happy with what was happening, and the papers ended up being published and distributed to the membership at large waaaaaaay before the leadership was ready to implement their plan.

(This is getting long, I will shorten it.)

In the end, the liberals got their way, and the church has become liberalized. The BoM has been relegated to a supportive role, and the meaning of "restoration" has been changed to mean a restoration of God's relationship with man. When I say liberal, I mean liberal. Ordaining homosexuals to the priesthood, performing homosexual unions, women in the priesthood (which I know is becoming a more common practice), joining the NCC/WCC, among other things.

So, the church as reorganized accepted the Articles of Faith. The RLDS Restorationists still do today. The CoC accepts nothing, because taking a definitive stand on anything would mean that they could insult someone's feelings or intelligence or whatever, and they don't want to do that. Heaven forbid we actually stand for something.

(Sorry, got carried away. :o )

What happened to make Navoo a point of demarcation (sp ?)?

All I can say is what I said above. For the most part, I think that some of the people that got attracted to the church came for the wrong reason. They felt they could turn the eye of Joseph Smith their way (away from the Lord) by playing to his weaknesses, and things went downhill.

One final question for this post:

Do most new RLDS/CoC come from former LDS or from outside LDS circles? Seems to me that RLDS has fewer "novelties" from an outsider's perspective.

~ NEHI (Kudos to Jenda for her helping a non exaltalted outsider)

Many of the RLDS/CoC can trace their 'generations' back to the early church, from the original split, but there are not a lot of members coming into the church today from the LDS. Yes there are some, we have whole countries opening up in Central and South America that is due, primarily to the exodus of saints from the LDS church, but looking for a place to go that does believe in the BoM. They found us on the web. (I was there.)

The only "novelty" that we possess is the good, old-fashioned Holy Spirit, and that in abundance (at least in the RLDS Restorationist camp.)

 

[Atom]

Jenda,

First, Thank you for explaining the differences between the RLDS/CoC and the LDS. Second, I'm not here to debate, either.

Do the RLDS/CoC have a trinitarian view of God, or do they view God in the same way as the LDS?

~Atom

 

[A New Dawn]

Jenda,

First, Thank you for explaining the differences between the RLDS/CoC and the LDS. Second, I'm not here to debate, either.

Do the RLDS/CoC have a trinitarian view of God, or do they view God in the same way as the LDS?

~Atom

We do not view the Godhead the way the LDS do. The majority accept the Trinity. There is a small schism of conservative RLDS who believe in modalism, and there is a small schism of liberals who believe that Christ is not the Son of God. (Which to me is far worse than what the LDS believe.)

 

[Breetai]

We believe that we existed spiritually before we came here, but I would say that it would be the former. (Especially since I don't know what other procreative process (aside from the LDS view) there is.) Sorry.

I'm kind of curious about what the CoC would teach here...if anything, and how they might justify it.

Interesting stuff!

 

[MormonFriend]

...

In the end, the liberals got their way, and the church has become liberalized. The BoM has been relegated to a supportive role, ...

How could this be only a supportive role when Joseph Smith said: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get closer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." ??

 

[A New Dawn]

How could this be only a supportive role when Joseph Smith said: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get closer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." ??

You got me.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm kind of curious about what the CoC would teach here...if anything, and how they might justify it.

Interesting stuff!

We really have no distinct beliefs on it, just that everything was created spiritually before it was created physically.

 

[Rescued One]

How could this be only a supportive role when Joseph Smith said: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get closer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." ??

I've read the BoM. I'm curious as to how this book brings a Mormon closer to God than, say, your D & C.

 

[A New Dawn]

I've read the BoM. I'm curious as to how this book brings a Mormon closer to God than, say, your D & C.

IMO, the D&C, while it has some spiritual guidance, is more a set of revelations on how the church should be run, what doctrines are revealed for guiding the beliefs of the church. The BoM, OTOH, while it contains some historical information (i.e.-wars, crossing the ocean, etc.), it is much more spiritual than the D&C. I have highlighted whole chapters which bring me to tears they are so profound.

Anyway, that is how I see the difference.