LDS LDS Baptism

[Jane_Doe]

Non-LDS scholar Donald C. Fleming agrees: "the dead know nothing: the context (or one look at a corpse) makes the meaning obvious." (F. F. Bruce, The International Bible Commentary, p. 699).

That is right, that is what I believe. A human being is composed of the following, and this is based on the bible: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is right - when a person dies - his thoughts perishes.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7, cp. James 2:26) < you quoted it right

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4) < you quoted it right

The body - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (it will rot to the ground)

The spirit - shall return unto God who gave it."

Now how did God gave "the spirit" to man?

Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
View attachment 194901
But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding. Job 32:8
View attachment 194900
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 33:4

And the last of the three parts of a human being is the SOUL - where does it go after we die?

My soul clings to the dust; Revive me according to Your word. Psalm 119:25

Like the body which rots, the soul clings to the dust while the breath of the Almighty (the spirit of God) which gives life - returns to God who gave it. God gave the spirit to Adam "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Now how about Jesus transfiguration?
View attachment 194903
Matthew 17:1-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

View attachment 194904

So it was a vision (defined above - select one which is appropriate). Is Moses dead? Moses died. He was not allowed to go to the promise land. Even the archangel and the devil were arguing about Moses' body:

Jude 1:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Has Moses reached heaven?
Not yet.
So what was Matthew 17?
My Lord Jesus said it was a vision.

The old KJV says this:

Matthew 17:9 King James Version (KJV)

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Thank you for explaining your beliefs.

 

[Super14LDS]

Non-LDS scholar Donald C. Fleming agrees: "the dead know nothing: the context (or one look at a corpse) makes the meaning obvious." (F. F. Bruce, The International Bible Commentary, p. 699).

That is right, that is what I believe. A human being is composed of the following, and this is based on the bible: 1 Thessalonians 5:23

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That is right - when a person dies - his thoughts perishes.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7, cp. James 2:26) < you quoted it right

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4) < you quoted it right

The body - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: (it will rot to the ground)

The spirit - shall return unto God who gave it."

Now how did God gave "the spirit" to man?

Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
View attachment 194901
But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding. Job 32:8
View attachment 194900
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. Job 33:4

And the last of the three parts of a human being is the SOUL - where does it go after we die?

My soul clings to the dust; Revive me according to Your word. Psalm 119:25

Like the body which rots, the soul clings to the dust while the breath of the Almighty (the spirit of God) which gives life - returns to God who gave it. God gave the spirit to Adam "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Now how about Jesus transfiguration?
View attachment 194903
Matthew 17:1-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, “Arise, and do not be afraid.” When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.

Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

View attachment 194904

So it was a vision (defined above - select one which is appropriate). Is Moses dead? Moses died. He was not allowed to go to the promise land. Even the archangel and the devil were arguing about Moses' body:

Jude 1:9 New King James Version (NKJV)

Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Has Moses reached heaven?
Not yet.
So what was Matthew 17?
My Lord Jesus said it was a vision.

The old KJV says this:

Matthew 17:9 King James Version (KJV)

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Interesting

How do you explain

4. Christ's Promise to the Malefactor:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)

?

 

[MJFlores]

Thank you for explaining your beliefs.

You're welcome. However I just lifted the whole thing from the bible.

Interesting

How do you explain

4. Christ's Promise to the Malefactor:

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)

?

It's English my Mormon friend. Sometime in the 1900's the Americans invaded the Philippines and became a colony. During those times they imparted the English language. Thomasites - Wikipedia They loved the place and they lived the rest of their lives in the Philippines.

Let the facts of the bible, the words of God in the bible guide us. Why Jesus said those words. Let us find out.

He is a lucky criminal, ain't he?
Probably he was not part of the first century church
But he believed in my Lord Jesus
He has the faith, the Lord requires
There are always exceptions to the rule
When the Son of Man expressly awards him salvation
He is saved, but did he really entered paradise that day? There is no record in the bible that when the Lord Jesus was raised by God from the dead and stayed on earth for 40 more days before being taken to heaven - he took the lucky criminal with him - there is no such verse in the bible. Where is he then? He is still buried probably dust a long time ago.

Luke 23:39-43 New International Version (NIV)

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

I have highlighted the word "today" - because that is the emphasis. Before becoming a member of the Church of Christ, I also raised that fascinating promise by my Lord Jesus to the criminal. But before we delve on the nitty gritty of things. Let us remember the prophets of the bible and the apostles - they have lived and died - where are they now?

The prophets in the Bible have served the Almighty God as God spoke to them, they lived holy lives and when they died - their bodies and souls are still in the ground and the breath of life long returned to God who gave it. They have not reached paradise. (yet)

The apostles of Christ have served him and the first century church, they lived holy lives (except for one who betrayed my Lord Jesus) and when they died - their bodies and souls are still in the ground and the breath of life long returned to God who gave it. They have not reached paradise. (yet)

One of these apostles is Peter and before he died, he said:

Hebrews 3:13 New International Version (NIV)

But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

Hebrews 4:7 New International Version (NIV)

God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

That is Today but it was a long time ago, today is today, is it? Not to Peter it isn't.

Another apostle of Christ, Paul shared the similar fate and before all of that, he wrote:

2 Timothy 4:6-8 New International Version (NIV)

For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

What was Paul referring "that day" - the first resurrection (the return of my Lord Jesus) when those who have longed for his appearing. The criminal who was promised paradise, will also be in paradise on "that day"

The apostle Paul have not reached paradise. (yet)
Because it will award to him on that day—and not only to him, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

When people die, their thoughts perish, isn't it? Psalm 146:4

When people die, the bible says "we fall asleep" 1 Thessalonians 4:14

When evil people are resurrected, they are revived and will still think - on that day is still today.

• Hitler would think that day is still 30 April 1945
• Idi Amin would think that day is still 16 August 2003
• Saddam Hussien would think that day is still 30 December 2006
• Osama bin Laden would think that day is still 2 May 2011

On that day, is still "Today" for them.