LDS LDS Baptism

[Jane_Doe]

Only those predistined to be saved will be saved.

If you had continued with the verse you would have seen that people are already condemned.
John 3: 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

You can't come to Christ unless God grants it.
You can't believe unless God give you the gift of faith.

It seems as if you call God unjust for doing this. All mankind deserves justice....hell.

God said....“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

We are chosen...we don't do the choosing.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Romans 9:11 tells us God chooses us for His own purpose:
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls...

Only the chosen sheep hears Jesus voice....3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all who are his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Paul told the believers... you were DEAD in your sins and trespasses...DEAD. There is nothing you can do concerning your salvation because you are dead. God gives some the gift of salvation when He regenerates them and allows them to believe through the gift of faith and mercy.

I requested that you reconcile John 3:16 with your views. You did not address the verse.

 

[Peter1000]

You said...."This is the automatic birthright to heaven. There is no action on your part. There is no risk to you from cradle to grave. You get everything handed to you. You are just along for the ride. Well happy earth life, enjoy."

You kinda made me sick with that cruel comment. Seriously. I then asked if you have a poblem with that... You replied back with...



HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ANYONE OF THAT? If you were aquanted with the bible you would understand the Bema Seat of Christ Judgement. You in a sick fashion post as if I think I won't have to stand before it...and then tell me there is no accountability on MY PART. HOW DARE YOU.

When you replied back, 'do you have a problem with that', I took your remark to mean, 'yes, this is what I believe, do you have a problem with that'?

So if I read that wrong, forgive me, I try not to offend.

The answer to your question, should have been, 'yes, I have a problem with that, if that is what you believe'. You seem to have a great deal of confidence in Calvin, and a lot of Calvin's doctrine was an automatic road to heaven. And according to his doctrinal concepts, one concept is that a person does not even know if he is saved or not, until the final judgement seat, and that no amount of good works or bad works will determine anything. The only factor that means anything is the soveriegn wishes of the Father.

According to some Christians, you will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ to be judged. You happen to believe though, that at the Bema seat you will just get a pass, and get your reward. Hope that works out for you.

You and a good % of Christians forget what the word judgement means, and you go to a great amount of work to call the judgement seat, nothing more than a summary of your life and then give you a pass of your sins and to give you your reward.

So don't be worried about any kind of judgement, you have already been saved, long ago, just come to the judgement seat for your reward and all is well.

I happen to believe there will be a few surprizes. Some will find out that their automatic faith, was not really automatic and did not lead to automatic good works, and since they did not do the kind of good works that Jesus requires, they woefully find it hard to believe that they were not really automatically saved to begin with.

BTW, if a person has been saved, and has eternal life, what reward can Jesus give beyond this, at the Bema Seat of Christ Judgement?

Sorry again if I offended, but with Calvin as your guide, you find yourself in automatic land and what I said should not have offended you very much. I'll try to do better.

 

[Peter1000]

Eph 2:8 refutes that...8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works,


Christians teach the truth that God has to give you the gift of faith and grace. Once you receive this gift you freely come to Jesus. At this point you are saved. There is no path to salvation to be on. Perhaps you meant path to sanctification?

Those that are saved do good works to the Glory of God. Some false beliefs teach that the good works...if you do enough of them...saves you.

Works are a by-product of salvation...not part of the equation for obtaining salvation.

So again, not only is grace a gift, but faith is a gift too.
No personal responsibiltiy.

A person, having been given the gift of faith, will automatically do good works for the glory of God. . Right?

Why then are all 'saved' Christians not doing good works?

 

[-57]

Actually, the vast majority of Christians through time and now view salvation and sanctification as one in the same process.

No they don't.

Example? I don't know any Christian faith which teaches that.

Mormonism. I already presented the DIRECT quotes from the mormon web site....you moved the goalpost then challenged Calvinism to cover your losses. Remember????

 

[-57]

The answer to your question, should have been, 'yes, I have a problem with that, if that is what you believe'. You seem to have a great deal of confidence in Calvin, and a lot of Calvin's doctrine was an automatic road to heaven. And according to his doctrinal concepts, one concept is that a person does not even know if he is saved or not, until the final judgement seat, and that no amount of good works or bad works will determine anything. The only factor that means anything is the soveriegn wishes of the Father.

You posted above,,,,one concept is that a person does not even know if he is saved or not, until the final judgement seat,... That would be incorrect. Calvin believed in the assurance of salvation. Should I go cut and paste the meaning or do you already know what it says?

According to some Christians, you will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ to be judged. You happen to believe though, that at the Bema seat you will just get a pass, and get your reward. Hope that works out for you.

Well, it sure does beat the Great White Throne Judgement.

Will you "get a pass" as you put it? Will he get a reward?

1st Cor 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
I kinda wish you did your homework prior to your awkward reply.

You and a good % of Christians forget what the word judgement means, and you go to a great amount of work to call the judgement seat, nothing more than a summary of your life and then give you a pass of your sins and to give you your reward.

Didn't you even read about the Judgement seat of Christ prior to posting your reply? Does your bible not contain it?
Works will be JUDGED...good or bad. Good rewarded....bad burnt up. Notice your good works don't help you get into heaven.

So don't be worried about any kind of judgement, you have already been saved, long ago, just come to the judgement seat for your reward and all is well.

Here's where you get very unchristian in your argument.
Yes I have already been saved. I can't lose my salvation. Now you feel the need to get snarky and tell me all will be well. Yes salvation wise, all will be well....but who wants their works burnt up? Would You?

I happen to believe there will be a few surprizes. Some will find out that their automatic faith, was not really automatic and did not lead to automatic good works, and since they did not do the kind of good works that Jesus requires, they woefully find it hard to believe that they were not really automatically saved to begin with.

I agree. There are many who think they're saved who will be lost....Lord, Lord didn't we...depart from me...I think those that add works to their salvation...trying to impress God to let them in will be lost. Some people will also be surprised and find themselves in heaven.

BTW, if a person has been saved, and has eternal life, what reward can Jesus give beyond this, at the Bema Seat of Christ Judgement?

Don't you read your bible? Maybe hearing.."‘Well done, good and faithful servant."
How about crowns?
1) The Imperishable Crown – (1 Corinthians 9:24-25)
2) The Crown of Rejoicing – (1 Thessalonians 2:19)
3) The Crown of Righteousness – (2 Timothy 4:8)
4) The Crown of Glory – (1 Peter 5:4)
5) The Crown of Life – (Revelation 2:10)

Sorry again if I offended, but with Calvin as your guide, you find yourself in automatic land and what I said should not have offended you very much. I'll try to do better.

Apology accepted....I now understand your unchristian post was presented out of ignorance of what the bible says.

 

[-57]

So again, not only is grace a gift, but faith is a gift too.
No personal responsibiltiy.

WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO PRESENT THE VERSE AGAIN?.....is it missing from your bible?

 

[Jane_Doe]

No they don't.

Christian faiths that believe salvation is a process (>70% of Christians): Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, LDS, etc.

Christian faiths that believe salvation is a single event (<20% Christians): Baptists/Calvinists/Evangelicals.

Remainder % of Christians I don't know well enough to say off the top of my head.

Mormonism.

Incorrect. LDS do not teach that a person can earn salvation. In fact, I don't know a Christian group that does.

I already presented the DIRECT quotes from the mormon web site....you moved the goalpost then challenged Calvinism to cover your losses. Remember????

I discovered that you have a very Calvinistic background. I thought a comparative viewpoints would be beneficial to helping you understand other viewpoints, as it seems you are still misunderstanding the LDS one.

Calvinism views deny a person's free will and deny that having faith is a requirement for salvation-- rather salvation and damnation are forced upon a person by God.

This viewpoint differs radically from ~90% of Christianity, including LDS. These groups acknowledge a person's free will to accept or reject the faith God gives them. Because a person must accept or reject the faith, they choose to accept salvation or damned. It's still Christ and faith doing the saving, but a person is given a choice.

I would still like to talk about a person's choice to accept God given faith. I feel that you will just grow frustrated until you understand this critical foundational point.

 

[fatboys]

Christian faiths that believe salvation is a process (>70% of Christians): Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, LDS, etc.

Christian faiths that believe salvation is a single event (<20% Christians): Baptists/Calvinists/Evangelicals.

Remainder % of Christians I don't know well enough to say off the top of my head.


Incorrect. LDS do not teach that a person can earn salvation. In fact, I don't know a Christian group that does.


I discovered that you have a very Calvinistic background. I thought a comparative viewpoints would be beneficial to helping you understand other viewpoints, as it seems you are still misunderstanding the LDS one.

Calvinism views deny a person's free will and deny that having faith is a requirement for salvation-- rather salvation and damnation are forced upon a person by God.

This viewpoint differs radically from ~90% of Christianity, including LDS. These groups acknowledge a person's free will to accept or reject the faith God gives them. Because a person must accept or reject the faith, they choose to accept salvation or damned. It's still Christ and faith doing the saving, but a person is given a choice.

I would still like to talk about a person's choice to accept God given faith. I feel that you will just grow frustrated until you understand this critical foundational point.

Well I have found your discussion very enlightening. do say more. I don't understand why they think we are trying to earn our salvation any more than any other Christian religion. As you have stated well that we obey not to earn a reward but because we love God and that God blesses us when we obey him. We don't ask for the blessings God has promised us those blessings.

 

[Peter1000]

WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO PRESENT THE VERSE AGAIN?.....is it missing from your bible?

No, but you need to read it again. Let me show it to you and then do a little analyzing:
Ephesians 2:8King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The last phrase says, 'it' is the gift of God.

Is the 'it' referring to 'the gift of grace', or 'the gift of faith'? It cannot, by definition be referring to both. If 'it' were referring to both, the bible would say, 'they' are gifts of God.

So Mormons believe that grace is a gift of God, that is no probelm, but faith is an action word that is primarily a responsibility of the person. I say primarily, because the HS is there to persuade and give you a good feeling that you have done a good work for the glory of God. So the HS has a part too. But the primary action is from the person, who recieves a prompting from the HS and responds to that prompting with an action.

Do you know any 'saved' Christians that no longer respond to the HS promptings to action? I know quite a few. I know quite a few Christians that deny that they ever got a witness from the HS, (which they once claimed was so strong) and now worship nature. This has been my point all along in regards to the automatic gift. It seems that some who have recieved the gift are not responding. In your world that should not happen, but it does.

What do you call a Christian that no longer responds to the HS? No longer does good works through automatic faith? I am truly interested in what Jesus would do with these fallen Christians. Thanks

 

[Rescued One]

Well I have found your discussion very enlightening. do say more. I don't understand why they think we are trying to earn our salvation any more than any other Christian religion. As you have stated well that we obey not to earn a reward but because we love God and that God blesses us when we obey him. We don't ask for the blessings God has promised us those blessings.

Why do Mormons teach that if we reject your leaders we reject Christ? Why do you follow those leaders for a while, then turn around and reject what they taught? ???

“Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. If a man gets a fullness of the Priesthood of God he has to get it in the same way that Jesus Christ obtained it, and that was by keeping all the commandments and obeying all the ordinances of the house of the Lord ...” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 308)

“One of the most pernicious doctrines ever advocated by man, is the doctrine of ‘justification by faith alone,’ which has entered into the hearts of millions since the days of the so-called ‘reformation.'”
Joseph Fielding Smith, The Restoration of All Things, p. 192

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 206

Book of Mormon, Mosiah 15
21 And there cometh a resurrection, even a first resurrection; yea, even a resurrection of those that have been, and who are, and who shall be, even until the resurrection of Christ—for so shall he be called.
22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

___

It is the celestial glory which we seek. It is in the presence of God we desire to dwell. It is a forever family in which we want membership. Such blessings are earned through a lifetime of striving, seeking, repenting, and finally succeeding.
Thomas S. Monson, The Race of Life, General Conference, April 2012
The Race of Life - By President Thomas S. Monson

“The gospel teaches us that relief from torment and guilt can be earned through repentance.”
Boyd K. Packer, The Savior’s Selfless and Sacred Sacrifice, Ensign, April 2015
From a devotional address, “Truths Most Worth Knowing,” given at Brigham Young University on Nov. 6, 2011. For the full address, visit speeches.byu.edu.


“The gospel teaches us that relief from torment and guilt can be earned through repentance.”
Boyd K. Packer, The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness, General Conference, October 1995

 

[Ironhold]

...And how many of the works you cited are actually a part of the church's canon?

 

[Rescued One]

For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to destroy His new creation.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Ironhold]

For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to destroy His new creation.

Ephesians 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

So we're back to "Once Saved, Always Saved", eh?

 

[Rescued One]

So again, not only is grace a gift, but faith is a gift too.
No personal responsibiltiy.

A person, having been given the gift of faith, will automatically do good works for the glory of God. . Right?

Why then are all 'saved' Christians not doing good works?

You don't know who is a saved Christian and who isn't. Therefore your question is meaningless.

Reciting a prayer doesn't guarantee salvation as some claim. A person must be born again and that is not of ourselves.

Matthew 7:16-20 (KJV)
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[Jane_Doe]

You don't know who is a saved Christian and who isn't. Therefore your question is meaningless.

Reciting a prayer doesn't guarantee salvation as some claim. A person must be born again and that is not of ourselves.

In your theology, does a once-saved-always-saved Christian sin?

 

[Ironhold]

You don't know who is a saved Christian and who isn't.

...Unless of course the people are boasting about how they're saved and we aren't...

Reciting a prayer doesn't guarantee salvation as some claim.

...Yet people are claiming it anyway and we're having to deal with the blowback.

 

[Rescued One]

And what did Calvin teach?

“Because the Father has reconciled us to Himself in Christ, therefore He commands us to be conformed to Christ as to our pattern.”

“Unless we ardently and prayerfully devote ourselves to Christ’s righteousness we do not only faithlessly revolt from our Creator, but we also abjure Him as our Savior.”

“Perfection must be the final mark at which we aim, and the goal for which we strive. It is not lawful for you to make a compromise with God, to try to fulfill part of your duties and to omit others at your own pleasure.”

“Let us not cease to do the utmost; that we may incessantly go forward in the way of the Lord; and let us not despair because of the smallness of our accomplishment.”

"But in promising it, of what sort did he declare his Spirit would be? One that would speak not from himself but would suggest to and instill into their minds what he had handed on through the Word [John 16:13]. Therefore the Spirit, promised to us, has not the task of inventing new and unheard-of revelations, or of forging a new kind of doctrine, to lead us away from the received doctrine of the gospel, but of sealing our minds with that very doctrine which is commended by the gospel." ~ Institutes of the Christian Religion

 

[Jane_Doe]

And what did Calvin teach?

Is Calvin your teacher or Christ?

 

[Rescued One]

What do you call a Christian that no longer responds to the HS? No longer does good works through automatic faith? I am truly interested in what Jesus would do with these fallen Christians. Thanks

There aren't any fallen Christians. There are no Christians who are not being sanctified.

The pretenders were not of us.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Rescued One]

For those Mormons who erroneously claim to know what Calvin taught about holiness:

And what did Calvin teach?

“Because the Father has reconciled us to Himself in Christ, therefore He commands us to be conformed to Christ as to our pattern.”

“Unless we ardently and prayerfully devote ourselves to Christ’s righteousness we do not only faithlessly revolt from our Creator, but we also abjure Him as our Savior.”

“Perfection must be the final mark at which we aim, and the goal for which we strive. It is not lawful for you to make a compromise with God, to try to fulfill part of your duties and to omit others at your own pleasure.”

“Let us not cease to do the utmost; that we may incessantly go forward in the way of the Lord; and let us not despair because of the smallness of our accomplishment.”

"But in promising it, of what sort did he declare his Spirit would be? One that would speak not from himself but would suggest to and instill into their minds what he had handed on through the Word [John 16:13]. Therefore the Spirit, promised to us, has not the task of inventing new and unheard-of revelations, or of forging a new kind of doctrine, to lead us away from the received doctrine of the gospel, but of sealing our minds with that very doctrine which is commended by the gospel." ~ Institutes of the Christian Religion

If someone agrees with what Calvin taught, it isn't because Calvin was so wonderful. We follow Christ and should we find errors in what Calvin taught we will reject those errors.