LDS LDS Baptism

[-57]

According to who? There's people who would argue which one had it or neither.

Do you believe Calvin had some special authority given from God that only he could interpret the Bible correctly? Would he have want you to think that, or did he preach against that exact thing?

Why would you think I think only Calvin could interpret the scripture correctly? I think guys like Jonathan Edwards interpreted scripture correctly.

I think God gave men like Luther the insight to pull theology from the wrong path.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Why would you think I think only Calvin could interpret the scripture correctly? I think guys like Jonathan Edwards interpreted scripture correctly.

So those are your thoughts.
My thoughts differ.
The thoughts of Pope Francis differ from both of ours.
The thoughts of Mary Sue differ from all of the above.
Everyone cites the Bible in support of their position and against the others.

Now I understand you place the most value in your position and think it's right. I do the same with mine, as does everyone else with theirs. The question is: under the sola scriptura framework, does one interpretation trump another? If so, why?

 

[Peter1000]

If it is a requirement...then why is it left out of John 3:16....as well as many other verses?

Is John 3:16 true for Mormons?
The answer is yes. If a person does believe in Jesus, they will do what he has commanded them to do.
So the bottom line to be saved is to believe in Jesus, then because we love him, we keep his commandments, one of which is to be baptized.
So Mormons do not have a problem with John 3:16.

Another thing that you must realize is:
Even though Mormons believe that baptism is essential, we also believe that baptism does not guarantee salvation. Baptism is only the beginning of a long road to salvation, including the act of grace, that is a gift from Jesus himself that finally allows us to enter into the
K of H.

 

[Peter1000]

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2nd Tim 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God

Phillipians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Do I need to hi-lite the important parts for you?

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus was baptized for 2 reasons:
1) He had to fulfill all righteousness. (Matthew 3:15) If Jesus had not been baptized, he would have not fulfilled all righteousness and he would not be God the Son, because he would have sinned in not fulfilling all righteousness.
2) He was baptized to set an example of what was required of all of his sheep, which he expected, nay, commanded them to follow him. (John 14:15) Did you follow him into the waters of baptism? Did you fulfill all righteousness for you?

How would you interpret James 2:19-26
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

How do these scriptures stack up to your 5 scriptures above? I won't even say, 'do I need to hi-lite the important parts for you'?

 

[Peter1000]

You have a problem with that?

Sure. It does not require any accountability on your part.

Whereas the bible requires all kinds of accountability on your part. So you should have a problem with it, if you are acquainted with the bible even a little.

 

[-57]

Is John 3:16 true for Mormons?
The answer is yes. If a person does believe in Jesus, they will do what he has commanded them to do.
So the bottom line to be saved is to believe in Jesus, then because we love him, we keep his commandments, one of which is to be baptized.
So Mormons do not have a problem with John 3:16.

Another thing that you must realize is:
Even though Mormons believe that baptism is essential, we also believe that baptism does not guarantee salvation. Baptism is only the beginning of a long road to salvation, including the act of grace, that is a gift from Jesus himself that finally allows us to enter into the
K of H.

You said "we also believe that baptism does not guarantee salvation. "...nor in anyway does it grant it.
It appears with the mormons it's John 3:16 ...plus ______________________ may, equal salvation.

 

[-57]

Did you fulfill all righteousness for you?

Christ Jesus fulfilled all the righteous for me. I trust in Jesus....NOT...me.

 

[-57]

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus was baptized for 2 reasons:
1) He had to fulfill all righteousness. (Matthew 3:15) If Jesus had not been baptized, he would have not fulfilled all righteousness and he would not be God the Son, because he would have sinned in not fulfilling all righteousness.
2) He was baptized to set an example of what was required of all of his sheep, which he expected, nay, commanded them to follow him. (John 14:15) Did you follow him into the waters of baptism? Did you fulfill all righteousness for you?

How would you interpret James 2:19-26
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

How do these scriptures stack up to your 5 scriptures above? I won't even say, 'do I need to hi-lite the important parts for you'?

You said..."How do these scriptures stack up to your 5 scriptures above? I won't even say, 'do I need to hi-lite the important parts for you'?"

I fail to see your point. The jist of James is producing works which demonstrates one's faith. Your interpretation is incorrect as you can easily see your interpretation contradicts the 5 verses I presented.
If you claim you have faith..but don't produce works....You don't have faith. If you actually have saving faith then the by-product of your faith will be works. It's actually a pretty simple concept when you interpret the verse correctly rather than the contradictory interpretition of yours.

Faith is a free gift from God....but for some reason you think you have to EARN, work for, the gift....in which case it wouldn't be a gift. Would it?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

[Jane_Doe]

You said "we also believe that baptism does not guarantee salvation. "...nor in anyway does it grant it.
It appears with the mormons it's John 3:16 ...plus ______________________ may, equal salvation.

John 3:16 is a verse which says salvation requires an action on our part (believing).

Again, LDS do not believe we "earn" salvation-- such an idea is ridiculous. However, salvation does require action on our part (such as believing). Christ did not die for an inert sack of potatoes, but a living breathing person. We are to believe and follow Him.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The difference is this....The moment I believe I was saved.....the next step is to follow Him. The following of Jesus isn't what saved me.

But, you say the idea is ridiculous? The following is copied and pasted directly from a lDS web site:
"To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works."

Later on that same page we read the following:

"Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances, keeping covenants, and serving others. While these works are necessary for salvation, they aren’t sufficient. They are not enough because we can’t live perfect lives, but we can do our best to live righteously. By doing so, we invite the Lord’s grace into our lives and qualify for the gift of salvation."

So, the statement I said above is a very true statement....It appears with the mormons it's John 3:16 ...plus ______________________ may, equal salvation.

You are misinterpreting what you are reading, and yes this misinterpretation is ridiculous.

Let's do a few minutes of comparative theology here. I don't know your personal beliefs, so I'll just talk about hard-core Calvinism. Hardcore Calvinism believes the following:
A) Salvation is from faith alone and NOTHING to do with a what a person does or who they are.
B) Salvation happens without a person's consent and not because a person believes. Rather, God forces a new heart upon that person, in complete denial of their will. It is not because they believed or disbelieved, but whom God forced.
C) There are three basic classes of people--
1) Those whom God loves and forced himself upon. Before this "saving movement" they have a license to sin. After this moment they have a license to sin: salvation cannot be lost.
2) Those whom God hates and created simply to damn them. These people God will not force a new heart upon. Christ did not die to save them and their damnation is solely attributed to God. None of their sins ever mattered.
2b) A subclass of group 2 is those people who think they are saved but are not really. They attend every congregation, but will eventually fall away from the faith because "they were never really saved". A person has no way of know or change whether were truly saved or not, because the heart can be deceived.

D) Evangelizing is pointless because a person will either be saved by God or not. Nothing a human can do will alter it. A person cannot consent to salvation.




Ok, onto LDS beliefs:

A) Salvation is from alone faith and nothing a person can do without Christ will ever merit salvation. However God respects are person's will.
B) Salvation happens WITH a person's consent: God offers a new heart to all men. He died for all men. He offers faith to all men. A person must accept this faith and believe to be saved.
C) There are two basic classes of people--
1) Those whom God loves, died for, and offers salvation to. These people choose to accept His gift. No, they do not have a license to sin.
2) Those whom God loves, died for, and offers salvation to. But unlike the first group they choose to reject His gift. No, they do not have a license to sin. Because of their sins and refusal to accept salvation from them, they will be kept from the fullness of God's presence.

Which view do you think John 3:16 better fits? Does God love the entire world and offer salvation to everyone? Must a person believe in order to be saved?

 

[Jane_Doe]

You just pushed this aside...
"To gain eternal life, we need both grace and works." (from the LDS site)"Besides repentance, our works also include receiving ordinances," (also from the LDS site)

To the contrary, I talked a lot about the first actions we take involved in our salvation. I'll bold some of them for you:

"B) Salvation happens WITH a person's consent: God offers a new heart to all men. He died for all men. He offers faith to all men. A person must accept this faith and believe to be saved.
C) There are two basic classes of people--
1) Those whom God loves, died for, and offers salvation to. These people choose to accept His gift. No, they do not have a license to sin.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first ordinance and principle of the Gospel (LDS Article of Faith #4 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.4?lang=eng). Once you acknowledge the importance of this first foundational ordinance and principle then we can move on to the second.

What I presented was LDS material...you didn't even attempt to respond to the topic rather instead went off into some kind of comparison. Do you want to debate Calvinism? We can, BUT You said works were not part of your salvation and now I have presented material that show you don't quite understand the mormon faith.

Now that the goal poast has been moved back....Will you agree that .....It appears with the mormons it's John 3:16 ...plus _____works_________ may, equal salvation.

LDS beliefs: Christ does the saving, we do the accepting of this salvation. The first step is having faith.
Calvin's beliefs: Christ does the saving, our choice is denied and faith not required.
No one's beliefs: We somehow earn salvation without Christ.

I thought this simple comparison would help you see the difference between the ideologies.

 

[Peter1000]

Baptism is a symbol....concerning salvation it is not in the path of salvation.

Over 70% of Christians + Mormons disagree with you. If you dont want to agree with me, at least try to understand your brother Christians.

Once you're saved you are always saved.

There are to many examples in the scriptures that let us know that this doctrine is not true. Just ask believers Ananias and his wife Sapphira. Their story is in Acts 5. Just ask Judas. Just read the parable of the sower, and you see that Jesus expected many to stumble and fall from grace, and be lost.

I would guess that about 20% of Christians believe this doctrine, but 80% do not. Even if it were 40% to 60% you are still in a minority.

Do I need to repeat post 155?

Do I need to repeat James 2:19-26?

That would be baptism of the Holy Spirit....not the symbolic baptism of water.

No, this is water baptism.[/QUOTE]

 

[Peter1000]

You said..."How do these scriptures stack up to your 5 scriptures above? I won't even say, 'do I need to hi-lite the important parts for you'?"

I fail to see your point. The jist of James is producing works which demonstrates one's faith. Your interpretation is incorrect as you can easily see your interpretation contradicts the 5 verses I presented.
If you claim you have faith..but don't produce works....You don't have faith. If you actually have saving faith then the by-product of your faith will be works. It's actually a pretty simple concept when you interpret the verse correctly rather than the contradictory interpretition of yours.

Faith is a free gift from God....but for some reason you think you have to EARN, work for, the gift....in which case it wouldn't be a gift. Would it?
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

It's not that you have to earn 'faith', but you do have to choose to be full of 'faith'.

Mormons believe that once you believe, you repent of your sins and are baptized and you have the HS to be with you, you are now on the path to eternal life.

So what is the next step? The HS is a good guide to what a person does next. It usually manifests itself in the actions of the person. They are more kind, they are more considerate, they are more willing to be helpful, they are studious in the scriptures, they are more prayerful, in short they are full of good works.

Does the HS just give you the gift of being full of faith, and therefore full of good works? Because if it is a gift and it is automatic to be full of good works, then 3/4 of the Mormons and 3/4 of mainline Christians didnt get the gift. Does that mean that 3/4 of Christians aren't really saved?

You can readily see if one is full of good works, right?
So if your not full of good works, there must then be an assumption that that person has not really been baptized of the HS and hence, has not really been saved.

Am I right about that?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'll let the bible speak....

Romans 9:11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f

16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

You're cherry picking verses. Please reconcile with John 3:16--
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1) God loves the world. The entire world. He gives His one and only Son for the entire world-- not just a few. There is no mention of the people God created to hate and damn.
2) Whoever believes in Him shall not parish. Belief is an action, which salvation is predicated.

 

[-57]

LDS beliefs: Christ does the saving, we do the accepting of this salvation. The first step is having faith.
Calvin's beliefs: Christ does the saving, our choice is denied and faith not required.
No one's beliefs: We somehow earn salvation without Christ.

What the bible says....
Eph 2:1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We were dead...quickened by God. Made alive...not of ourselves.
Given the gift of faith and grace from God. NOT BY WORKS...

 

[Jane_Doe]

What the bible says....
Eph 2:1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We were dead...quickened by God. Made alive...not of ourselves.
Given the gift of faith and grace from God. NOT BY WORKS...

Did I say that the faith came from us? NO! Your post here is arguing against something I did not say at all.

I specifically said that the faith was a gift from God, He gives it to us, and we can then choose to accept it or disregard it.

(By the way, the views you are advocating here originate with Calvin in the 1500's, and are rejected by >90% of current Christianity. This is not just an LDS thing).

 

[-57]

It's not that you have to earn 'faith', but you do have to choose to be full of 'faith'.

Eph 2:8 refutes that...8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works,

Mormons believe that once you believe, you repent of your sins and are baptized and you have the HS to be with you, you are now on the path to eternal life.

Christians teach the truth that God has to give you the gift of faith and grace. Once you receive this gift you freely come to Jesus. At this point you are saved. There is no path to salvation to be on. Perhaps you meant path to sanctification?

Those that are saved do good works to the Glory of God. Some false beliefs teach that the good works...if you do enough of them...saves you.

Works are a by-product of salvation...not part of the equation for obtaining salvation.

 

[-57]

You're cherry picking verses. Please reconcile with John 3:16--
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1) God loves the world. The entire world. He gives His one and only Son for the entire world-- not just a few. There is no mention of the people God created to hate and damn.
2) Whoever believes in Him shall not parish. Belief is an action, which salvation is predicated.

Only those predistined to be saved will be saved.

If you had continued with the verse you would have seen that people are already condemned.
John 3: 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

You can't come to Christ unless God grants it.
You can't believe unless God give you the gift of faith.

It seems as if you call God unjust for doing this. All mankind deserves justice....hell.

God said....“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

We are chosen...we don't do the choosing.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Romans 9:11 tells us God chooses us for His own purpose:
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls...

Only the chosen sheep hears Jesus voice....3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all who are his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Paul told the believers... you were DEAD in your sins and trespasses...DEAD. There is nothing you can do concerning your salvation because you are dead. God gives some the gift of salvation when He regenerates them and allows them to believe through the gift of faith and mercy.

 

[-57]

I specifically said that the faith was a gift from God, He gives it to us, and we can then choose to accept it or disregard it.

Along with the gift of faith is mercy....Part of that gift is regeneration. You are made alive in Christ. If you are given those gifts and regenerated...You're saved. The only baptism required is the baptism of the Holy Spirit...not water.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Christians teach the truth that God has to give you the gift of faith and grace. Once you receive this gift you freely come to Jesus. At this point you are saved. There is no path to salvation to be on. Perhaps you meant path to sanctification?

Actually, the vast majority of Christians through time and now view salvation and sanctification as one in the same process.

It is only a small portion of Protestants which view salvation like a measles shot and then separate out sanctification.

Those that are saved do good works to the Glory of God. Some false beliefs teach that the good works...if you do enough of them...saves you.

Example? I don't know any Christian faith which teaches that.