LDS LDS Baptism

[Peter1000]

And you know this how?

The exact same way that you know that he was not babtized???

I see you agree...you can be saved prior to baptism.

Once again, I see you agree you can be saved prior to being baptized.

What I read is that the HS did indeed witness that Jesus is the Christ.

But I also read that after this experience, they were baptized in a water baptism. If it is truly unessential, why mention it in the bible?

Since they do mention it, it may be they thought it essential. I go for this reason for mentioning it.

You say these things and don't support your doctrine.

Are you kidding me, I have quoted scripture to support my position. In fact the entire bible supports my position.

1) Jesus said that you have to believe and be baptized in order to be saved

2) Jesus followed his own commandments and went forth and was water baptized.

3) Jesus's last words to his apostles were, go and preach and baptize.

So you can follow 1/50 of Pauls words, and totally ignore Jesus's words if you wish, they are all in the bible, but I wouldn't, and I don't. I prefer to follow both Jesus and Paul.

No. Christians are saved by faith alone.

No, Christians are saved by what is taught in 100% of the bible, not what is taught in 10% of the bible. Read it all in regards to baptism being essential and you will agree with me.

 

[Peter1000]

UNderstand this...I see nothing wrong with baptism of believers. I've shown that the LDS errors when they say it is a requirement for baptism.

Why would Jesus be baptized and wherever Jesus and his apostles went they preached and baptized, and he told his apostles to preach and baptize and tells us to be baptized, if it wasn't a requirement?

It only makes sense if it is a requirement. All of these examples from the bible of being baptized and words written in the bible about being baptized and commandments in the bible to baptize, makes no sense if you can choose yeah or nay to do it or not, since it is not required. You put yourself at risk for trying to come into the
K of H another way and are found out and stopped and thrown out.

 

[Peter1000]

If part of your salvation package contains the requirement of water baptism to save you....and that is what you are trusting in rather than Christ Jesus' atoning sacrificial work on the cross alone...then you are relying on a false Gospel.

We are trusting the words of Jesus Christ, not your pastor. Jesus said to be baptized, so we do. The end.

You choose not to do the words of Jesus.

You choose that:
1)Jesus chose us to salvation before the world was made. (BTW is Mormon doctrine)
2) God the Father brought us to Jesus.
3) The HS made us believe.
4) Jesus gave us faith.
5) Jesus automatically forgives our sins
6) By this grace we are allowed into the K of H.

This is the automatic birthright to heaven. There is no action on your part. There is no risk to you from cradle to grave. You get everything handed to you. You are just along for the ride. Well happy earth life, enjoy.

 

[Peter1000]

If part of your salvation package contains the requirement of water baptism to save you....and that is what you are trusting in rather than Christ Jesus' atoning sacrificial work on the cross alone...then you are relying on a false Gospel.

We trust the words of Jesus. The entire bible is his whole word. You follow 1/10 of the word which fit your Jesus-alone agenda.

Mormons agree that Jesus bears most of the weight, but the bible clearly shows that we bear some of the weight.

You want to bear none of the weight. You will receive what you bear. Be happy.

 

[Peter1000]

Again, Christ's sacrifice is what's "powering" a baptism.

And you again just declared the first 1600 years of Christians and >80% of Christians to be following a false Gospel. Why do you not go tell them this? The Methodists, the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Catholics, Orthodox, the Brethren, Christadephians, Churches of Christ, Nazarenes, etc? Why do you not tell them that they are doomed for following a false Gospel?

Jane is right, you are not just arguing with Mormons, you are arguing with the majority of Christians, throughout the history of Christianity. Good luck with that.

Where are all the other Christians that should be posting in favor of baptism is essential??

 

[Peter1000]

I would have though you would have atleast checked out what the Presbyterian site has to say on "claims us in the waters of baptism"

In their "What we believe section" on Sin and Salvation...there is no mention of baptism as a requirement.

R.C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministry (Presbyterian) explain it a bit more in this article titled Baptism and Salvation. If you care to take the time (3 min) to read it and learn exactly what they mean by "claims us in water baptism".

They believe like Mormons that baptism puts you inside the visible and invisible community of Jesus Christ and you become a covenant person.

Those that choose not to be baptized are not in these 2 communities and do not become covenant people.

They are right that baptism does not guarantee salvation. Because a person may sin later and will fall out of these communities and if they do not repent, their baptism was of no use.

Mormons do not believe that if you are baptized you are automatically saved. We believe baptism is only the first requirement in a progressive path to salvation. if you heed not all the words of Jesus and backtrack and fall away, the baptism is of no value.

So your article is spot on. Baptism is required to become a part of the 2 communities of Christ and become a covenant person, all requirements be saved. Without baptism, you find yourself outside the community of Christ and no place in the K of H.

Thank you for the article.

 

[-57]

The Pope also has references for his perspective, books of them actually. Again:

How is you saying "John Calvin's words are the true interpretation of the Bible", really any different than a Catholic say "the Pope's words are the true interpretation of the Bible"?

Where does it teach the Pope is infallible?

Luther, Calvin....back up their points with scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Where does it teach the Pope is infallible?

Luther, Calvin....back up their points with scripture.

I'm not asking you about Papal infallibility. I acknowledge your beliefs as they are. Now in your view: How is you saying "John Calvin's words are the true interpretation of the Bible", really any different than saying "the Pope's words are the true interpretation of the Bible"?

 

[-57]

But I also read that after this experience, they were baptized in a water baptism. If it is truly unessential, why mention it in the bible?

If it is essential...then why is it left out of John 3:16....as well as many other verses?

 

[-57]

I'm not asking you about Papal infallibility. I acknowledge your beliefs as they are. Now in your view: How is you saying "John Calvin's words are the true interpretation of the Bible", really any different than saying "the Pope's words are the true interpretation of the Bible"?

Calvins words reflect what the bible says.

 

[-57]

Why would Jesus be baptized and wherever Jesus and his apostles went they preached and baptized, and he told his apostles to preach and baptize and tells us to be baptized, if it wasn't a requirement?

If it is a requirement...then why is it left out of John 3:16....as well as many other verses?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Calvins words reflect what the bible says.

In your view: Calvin reflects what the Bible really says.
In other people's view: the Pope reflects what the Bible really says.

How is your view any different?

 

[-57]

You choose that:
1)Jesus chose us to salvation before the world was made. (BTW is Mormon doctrine)
2) God the Father brought us to Jesus.
3) The HS made us believe.
4) Jesus gave us faith.
5) Jesus automatically forgives our sins
6) By this grace we are allowed into the K of H.

This is the automatic birthright to heaven. There is no action on your part. There is no risk to you from cradle to grave. You get everything handed to you. You are just along for the ride. Well happy earth life, enjoy.

You have a problem with that?

 

[-57]

In your view: Calvin reflects what the Bible really says.
In other people's view: the Pope reflects what the Bible really says.

How is your view any different?

If you actually have a point...make it....otherwise I can substitute Joey Smith's name for the pope.

 

[-57]

We trust the words of Jesus. The entire bible is his whole word. You follow 1/10 of the word which fit your Jesus-alone agenda.

Mormons agree that Jesus bears most of the weight, but the bible clearly shows that we bear some of the weight.

You want to bear none of the weight. You will receive what you bear. Be happy.

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2nd Tim 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God

Phillipians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Do I need to hi-lite the important parts for you?

 

[-57]

Where are all the other Christians that should be posting in favor of baptism is essential??

If baptism is essential then why doesn't John 3:16 include baptism...as well as the other verses talking about salvation?

 

[Jane_Doe]

If you actually have a point...make it....otherwise I can substitute Joey Smith's name for the pope.

Why not?
In your view: Calvin reflects what the Bible really says.
In other people's view: the Pope reflects what the Bible really says.
In other people's view: the Joseph Smith reflects what the Bible really says.

They all look to the Bible as the source of authority, and use it to support their positions. Catholics and LDS have reasons why their leader has authority from God. John Calvin does not, and there's no reason a person should believe Calvin over Joseph Smith.

Now, I know this is going to really get you rattled up. And I see you saying "But Calvin interprets the Bible correctly!" According to who? Why is one man's interpretation of the Bible better than another?

 

[-57]

They are right that baptism does not guarantee salvation. Because a person may sin later and will fall out of these communities and if they do not repent, their baptism was of no use.

Baptism is a symbol....concerning salvation it is not in the path of salvation.

They are right that baptism does not guarantee salvation. Because a person may sin later and will fall out of these communities and if they do not repent, their baptism was of no use.

Once you're saved you are always saved.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Mormons do not believe that if you are baptized you are automatically saved. We believe baptism is only the first requirement in a progressive path to salvation. if you heed not all the words of Jesus and backtrack and fall away, the baptism is of no value.

Do I need to repeat post 155?

Without baptism, you find yourself outside the community of Christ and no place in the K of H.

That would be baptism of the Holy Spirit....not the symbolic baptism of water.

 

[-57]

and there's no reason a person should believe Calvin over Joseph Smith.

Calvin had the Holy spirit while Joe Smith didn't.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Calvin had the Holy spirit while Joe Smith didn't.

According to who? There's people who would argue which one had it or neither.

Do you believe Calvin had some special authority given from God that only he could interpret the Bible correctly? Would he have want you to think that, or did he preach against that exact thing?