LDS and Grace

[Rescued One]

Sure... continue to ignore my scripture- and prophet-supported posts if it makes you feel good. After all, you've already told me in another thread that your views are right and can't be disproven. So let it be written... so let it be done!

Except...

TFT: LDS believe that grace and works each play a role in salvation.

PA: LDS believe that works alone secure salvation.

And you say I'm trying to change/delete things? LOL!

Hmmm...I think you are quite mistaken.

LDS say that we are saved by faith plus works (obedience) because we of our own freewill chose to obey God.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2984363-9/#post24150903

 

[TasteForTruth]

Hmmm...I think you are quite mistaken.

LDS say that we are saved by faith plus works (obedience) because we of our own freewill chose to obey God.

So grace and faith are the same thing in the LDS religion?

 

[TasteForTruth]

Shoot! I was waiting for Phoebe Ann to answer the questions asked of her.

Do you respond for other people a lot?

Rufus

Was there something faulty about my response?

 

[HenryPorter]

Sure... continue to ignore my scripture- and prophet-supported posts if it makes you feel good. After all, you've already told me in another thread that your views are right and can't be disproven. So let it be written... so let it be done!

Except...

TFT: LDS believe that grace and works each play a role in salvation.

PA: LDS believe that works alone secure salvation.

And you say I'm trying to change/delete things? LOL!

What is a "prophet-supported" post?

 

[TasteForTruth]

What is a "prophet-supported" post?

A post whose content is supported by the teachings/statements of one or more prophets? :o

 

[skylark1]

After reading TasteforTruth's posts, I would like to be sure that it is understood that I am discusing LDS theology and beliefs, and I am not LDS.

Earlier in this thread, I posted a quote from LDS Gospel Topics that seemed to indicate that LDS teach that grace is both unmerited favor and an enabling power.

Is God's favor a blessing?

Why are you asking this? I do not see how your question relates to what you quoted.


It might be helpful in this thread to define grace. Below is a portion of the definition from the World English Dictionary:

1. elegance and beauty of movement, form, expression, or proportion
2. a pleasing or charming quality
3. goodwill or favour
4. the granting of a favour or the manifestation of goodwill, esp by a superior
5. a sense of propriety and consideration for others
6. ( plural )
a. affectation of manner (esp in the phrase airs and graces )
b. in someone's good graces regarded favourably and with kindness by someone
7. mercy; clemency
8. Christianity
a. the free and unmerited favour of God shown towards man
b. the divine assistance and power given to man in spiritual rebirth and sanctification
c. the condition of being favoured or sanctified by God
d. an unmerited gift, favour, etc, granted by God
9. a short prayer recited before or after a meal to invoke a blessing upon the food or give thanks for it
10. music a melodic ornament or decoration
11. See days of grace
12. with bad grace , with a bad grace unwillingly or grudgingly
13. with good grace , with a good grace willingly or cheerfully

— vb
14. ( tr ) to add elegance and beauty to: flowers graced the room
15. ( tr ) to honour or favour: to grace a party with one's presence
16. to ornament or decorate (a melody, part, etc) with nonessential notes

Grace | Define Grace at Dictionary.com
​

According to this dictionary entry, grace is both unmerited favor and divine assistance and power granted to man in spiritual rebirth and sanctification.

The Book of Mormon was written before the Doctrine and Covenants. You will note that there is no mention of exaltation, a Celestial Kingdom, or baptism for the dead in the Book of Mormon.

Yes, I am aware of that. I did write in the post that you quoted just above this response that, "LDS teach that salvation is through grace and comes by faith and works."

 

[RufustheRed]

Was there something faulty about my response?

Other than the fact that the questions were directed to Phoebe Ann, specifically? I guess not. It is generally expected that the person to whom the question(s) were directed should provide the response. That make sense?

That's why I asked you if you normally answered questions directed to others.

Oh, well. Not a biggie.

Again, I hope you have a nice week.

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

Favor is a blessing and all blessings are predicated upon obedience to laws. There cannot be unmerited favor if the recipent of the favor earned the favor by obedience to a law.

In D&C 130:20-21 it says, "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." Meaning we receive blessings by obeying God's laws and when we obey God's laws there are blessings that go with it. Remember, blessings can be spiritual, temporal or both but are not always given in the way we expect.
The Law of Tithing


32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
Moroni 10:32-33

7And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
1 Nephi 3:7

If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God. No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. We are the architects of our own lives, not only of the lives here, but the lives to come in the eternity. We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment. If we fail, we, and we alone, are responsible for the failure, because God endows His servants, from the President of the Church down to the humblest member, with all the ability, all the knowledge, all the power that is necessary, faithfully, diligently, and properly to discharge every duty and every obligation that rests upon them, and we, and we alone, will have to answer if we fail in this regard.
LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Persistence

There are no people that make the sacrifices that we do, but for us it is not a sacrifice but a privilege—the privilege of obedience, the privilege of entering into a working partnership with our Father in Heaven and earning the choice blessings promised to those who love Him and keep His commandments.
LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Walking in the Path That Leads to Life Eternal

 

[TasteForTruth]

Favor is a blessing and all blessings are predicated upon obedience to laws. There cannot be unmerited favor if the recipent of the favor earned the favor by obedience to a law.

In D&C 130:20-21 it says, "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated— And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated." Meaning we receive blessings by obeying God's laws and when we obey God's laws there are blessings that go with it. Remember, blessings can be spiritual, temporal or both but are not always given in the way we expect.
The Law of Tithing


32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
Moroni 10:32-33

7And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
1 Nephi 3:7

If you want to know how to be saved, I can tell you; it is by keeping the commandments of God. No power on earth, no power beneath the earth, will ever prevent you or me or any Latter-day Saint from being saved, except ourselves. We are the architects of our own lives, not only of the lives here, but the lives to come in the eternity. We ourselves are able to perform every duty and obligation that God has required of men. No commandment was ever given to us but that God has given us the power to keep that commandment. If we fail, we, and we alone, are responsible for the failure, because God endows His servants, from the President of the Church down to the humblest member, with all the ability, all the knowledge, all the power that is necessary, faithfully, diligently, and properly to discharge every duty and every obligation that rests upon them, and we, and we alone, will have to answer if we fail in this regard.
LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Persistence

There are no people that make the sacrifices that we do, but for us it is not a sacrifice but a privilege—the privilege of obedience, the privilege of entering into a working partnership with our Father in Heaven and earning the choice blessings promised to those who love Him and keep His commandments.
LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Walking in the Path That Leads to Life Eternal

So, Phoebe Ann, according to LDS theology, where did man get his agency? (The ability to choose is pre-requisite to keeping a commandment. Keeping a commandment is pre-requisite to receiving a blessing.)

 

[BadWolf123]

.

 

[HE84]

@@@@ Phoebe Ann

I am new to this forum so I dont really know many people here, I didnt know that you used to be a part of the church.

If it isn't too personal would you mind sharing what caused you to leave?

I really am interested, in a none-judgemental critical way

 

[Rescued One]

@@@@ Phoebe Ann

I am new to this forum so I dont really know many people here, I didnt know that you used to be a part of the church.

If it isn't too personal would you mind sharing what caused you to leave?

I really am interested, in a none-judgemental critical way

God told me that Joseph Smith was not His prophet and that LDS scriptures are not His words.

 

[HenryPorter]

A post whose content is supported by the teachings/statements of one or more prophets? :o

Are you saying that a "post whose content is supported by the teachings/statements of one or more prophets" is a "prophet-supported post" and thus carries more weight than a post that is not "prophet-supported"?

 

[HenryPorter]

God told me that Joseph Smith was not His prophet and that LDS scriptures are not His words.

I was told the same thing. Why do you think God tells so very many of His beloved children that this is the case, but He only tells so very few of His beloved children the opposite

 

[TasteForTruth]

Are you saying that a "post whose content is supported by the teachings/statements of one or more prophets" is a "prophet-supported post" and thus carries more weight than a post that is not "prophet-supported"?

Well, yes. If I post some material with no supporting statements from prophetic sources, I'd say that such a post carries less weight than one which is supported by such statements.

 

[TasteForTruth]

I was told the same thing. Why do you think God tells so very many of His beloved children that this is the case, but He only tells so very few of His beloved children the opposite

That's for each person to work out with God, now isn't it.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Favor is a blessing and all blessings are predicated upon obedience to laws. There cannot be unmerited favor if the recipent of the favor earned the favor by obedience to a law.

So, Phoebe Ann, according to LDS theology, where did man get his agency? (The ability to choose is pre-requisite to keeping a commandment. Keeping a commandment is pre-requisite to receiving a blessing.)

Bump for Phoebe Ann

 

[Rescued One]

So, Phoebe Ann, according to LDS theology, where did man get his agency? (The ability to choose is pre-requisite to keeping a commandment. Keeping a commandment is pre-requisite to receiving a blessing.)

According to LDS teachings, the law of agency was predetermined prior to this life. Those who opposed the law (Lucifer and his followers) were cast out of heaven. The Plan(LDS) of Heavenly Father was that men would have choices to make; Christ sustained the the Plan. Lucifer opposed the Plan (he was already rebellious).

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
Moses 4:3

The scriptures teach us that the prophets prepared themselves to become leaders on earth while they were still spirits in heaven (see Alma 13:1–3).
LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Our Heavenly Family


We believe that everything is ruled by law. We are thankful that it is so, for otherwise we would live in a world of chance, in a fearful uncertainty of what would happen next. I believe that the material laws that can be traced in the creation had an intelligent will behind them, that the laws themselves were never superior to the will of God. He made those laws, and by His power they became effective to accomplish His purposes.
Anthon H. Lund, Conference Report, April 1916, p. 12

Who is it that is at the head of this? It is the Devil, the mighty Lucifer, the great prince of the angels, and the brother of Jesus. He left the province of his Father, and took with him a third part of his Father's kingdom, and there was no other alternative but to banish him. God would have saved him if he could; but he could not.
Joseph Young, LDS Apostle, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 207-208, October 11, 1857

"All kingdoms have a law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions."
D&C 88:36-38

All of that is LDS teaching. Those who make the correct choices get blessed, those who make incorrect choices don't.

 

[TasteForTruth]

According to LDS teachings, the law of agency was predetermined prior to this life. Those who opposed the law (Lucifer and his followers) were cast out of heaven. The Plan(LDS) of Heavenly Father was that men would have choices to make; Christ sustained the the Plan. Lucifer opposed the Plan (he was already rebellious).

Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
Moses 4:3

The scriptures teach us that the prophets prepared themselves to become leaders on earth while they were still spirits in heaven (see Alma 13:1–3).
LDS.org - Family Chapter Detail - Our Heavenly Family


We believe that everything is ruled by law. We are thankful that it is so, for otherwise we would live in a world of chance, in a fearful uncertainty of what would happen next. I believe that the material laws that can be traced in the creation had an intelligent will behind them, that the laws themselves were never superior to the will of God. He made those laws, and by His power they became effective to accomplish His purposes.
Anthon H. Lund, Conference Report, April 1916, p. 12

Who is it that is at the head of this? It is the Devil, the mighty Lucifer, the great prince of the angels, and the brother of Jesus. He left the province of his Father, and took with him a third part of his Father's kingdom, and there was no other alternative but to banish him. God would have saved him if he could; but he could not.
Joseph Young, LDS Apostle, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 207-208, October 11, 1857

"All kingdoms have a law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions."
D&C 88:36-38

All of that is LDS teaching. Those who make the correct choices get blessed, those who make incorrect choices don't.

Thank you. According to LDS theology, did man have the capacity to choose prior to the council in heaven? If so, when and how did man obtain this capacity? (Again, according to LDS theology)

 

[Rescued One]

Sorry... I accidentally hit the Submit button.