LDS and Grace

[Rescued One]

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2

Are works necessary for salvation?

Of course not! Christ does the saving. When we are passed from death to life, we are grafted to the true vine and because of that Christ produces good works through us.

Many people believe that Christ existed, but they don't have saving faith. The try to assist Christ in salvation. I get the impression that they believe faith plus works is what saves.



To start the discussion, I'll begin with this from lds.org:

Grace. A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.


Because of the Fall, everyone will experience temporal
death. Through grace, made available by the Savior’s atoning
sacrifice, all people will be resurrected and receive immortality
(see 2 Nephi 9:6–13). But resurrection alone does not
qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God. Our sins
make us unclean and unfit to dwell in God’s presence, and
we need His grace to purify and perfect us “after all we can
do” (2 Nephi 25:23).
The phrase “after all we can do” teaches that effort is
required on our part to receive the fulness of the Lord’s grace
and be made worthy to dwell with Him. The Lord has commanded
us to obey His gospel, which includes having faith in
Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift
of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end (see John 3:3–5;
3 Nephi 27:16–20; Articles of Faith 1:3–4). The prophet
Moroni wrote of the grace we receive as we come unto the
Savior and obey His teachings:
“Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny
yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves
of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind
and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his
grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God
ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of
God.
(See True to the Faith, p. 77)
http://lds.org/languages/youthmaterials/trueToThefaith/TrueFaith_000.pdf

2Nephi 25:23 —We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do
We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79 ; see also Abraham 3:25 ).
Book of Mormon Seminary Student Study Guide - 2 Nephi 25 - "Believe in Christ""Believe in Christ"

"The twofold effect of the atonement is implied in the article of our faith now under consideration. The first effect is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of general Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins. As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements--'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel'"
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 78-79

"The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil. The idea upon which this pernicious doctrine was founded was at first associated with that of an absolute predestination, by which man was foredoomed to destruction, or to an undeserved salvation"
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 432

"All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. (2 Nephi 25:23)"The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope


So LDS can use this thread to explain what grace and salvation mean to them. Let's hope that they aren't offended when we disagree with their teachings. After all, they disagree with ours!

 

[TasteForTruth]

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2

Are works necessary for salvation?

Of course not! Christ does the saving. When we are passed from death to life, we are grafted to the true vine and because of that Christ produces good works through us.

Many people believe that Christ existed, but they don't have saving faith. The try to assist Christ in salvation. I get the impression that they believe faith plus works is what saves.



To start the discussion, I'll begin with this from lds.org:

Grace. A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15:1–11). See also John 1:12–17; Eph. 2:8–9; Philip. 4:13; D&C 93:11–14.


Because of the Fall, everyone will experience temporal
death. Through grace, made available by the Savior’s atoning
sacrifice, all people will be resurrected and receive immortality
(see 2 Nephi 9:6–13). But resurrection alone does not
qualify us for eternal life in the presence of God. Our sins
make us unclean and unfit to dwell in God’s presence, and
we need His grace to purify and perfect us “after all we can
do” (2 Nephi 25:23).
The phrase “after all we can do” teaches that effort is
required on our part to receive the fulness of the Lord’s grace
and be made worthy to dwell with Him. The Lord has commanded
us to obey His gospel, which includes having faith in
Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift
of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end (see John 3:3–5;
3 Nephi 27:16–20; Articles of Faith 1:3–4). The prophet
Moroni wrote of the grace we receive as we come unto the
Savior and obey His teachings:
“Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny
yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves
of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind
and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his
grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God
ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of
God.
(See True to the Faith, p. 77)
http://lds.org/languages/youthmaterials/trueToThefaith/TrueFaith_000.pdf

2Nephi 25:23 —We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do
We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79 ; see also Abraham 3:25 ).
Book of Mormon Seminary Student Study Guide - 2 Nephi 25 - "Believe in Christ""Believe in Christ"

"The twofold effect of the atonement is implied in the article of our faith now under consideration. The first effect is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of general Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins. As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements--'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel'"
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 78-79

"The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil. The idea upon which this pernicious doctrine was founded was at first associated with that of an absolute predestination, by which man was foredoomed to destruction, or to an undeserved salvation"
James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, p. 432

"All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt. (2 Nephi 25:23)"The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope


So LDS can use this thread to explain what grace and salvation mean to them. Let's hope that they aren't offended when we disagree with their teachings. After all, they disagree with ours!

LOL, you can't be serious! Can't you see how blind you are to your own prejudices? Look at what you just said! You are supposedly starting this thread so that we LDS—we who are active, true, current members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints—can "explain what grace and salvation mean to [us]." ... We get to explain OUR teachings... seems like a dream come true, right?

Explain: Make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas.
​

...we are going to make clear what it is we believe... we are going to engage in an expository exercise... a non-confrontational, non-proselytizing, zero-intent-to-convert, no-strings-attached, just-plain-explain what grace and salvation mean to us exposition, so that non-LDS can understand what LDS teachings mean to LDS...

And before we can even get in one single word in explanation you come right out and tell us that you are going to disagree with our teachings!?! Why would you plan on disagreeing with our teachings if we are merely going to explain them? That is preposterous! We already know that you disagree with them! And on top of that—as if that isn't outrageous enough—you couldn't even allow us to start with a clean slate—you pre-empted everything with your own quotes! You put up your favorite props before we even got on stage! And on top of all that you actually have the nerve right from the start to tell us—in this, our very own gifted thread!—that that which you've already concluded about our beliefs (that works factor into salvation or the reception of grace at all) is wrong! This is your idea of letting us explain our beliefs how we see them??? We're supposed to believe that this thread is for US to explain what WE believe? What an absolute JOKE!

I'm sorry, but I have no confidence at this point that this thread will be any different than any other thread you've started, or in which you've posted that had anything to do with the LDS religion. You've already shown and told us that it won't be any different!

---

I'm sorry that this is so loaded with emotion. I know that that is way taboo around here. But this is just over the top as far as I'm concerned. It's just too much... way too much... unbelievable even...

 

[Rescued One]

LOL, you can't be serious! Can't you see how blind you are to your own prejudices? Look at what you just said! You are supposedly starting this thread so that we LDS—we who are active, true, current members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints—can "explain what grace and salvation mean to [us]."

You forgot that I stay abreast of LDS teachings, and that I was a true member for many years. So, yes, explain what you believe. You can't explain what another LDS believes any more than John Doe can. Go ahead; tell people what you believe. I think that what the church teaches is what matters to non-LDS, not what TFT believes about the teachings. But if you give your opinion, we will see how it lines up with the leaders' teachings.

... We get to explain OUR teachings... seems like a dream come true, right?

Explain: Make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas.
​

...we are going to make clear what it is we believe... we are going to engage in an expository exercise... a non-confrontational, non-proselytizing, zero-intent-to-convert, no-strings-attached, just-plain-explain what grace and salvation mean to us exposition, so that non-LDS can understand what LDS teachings mean to LDS...

You can only speak for yourself. You don't know another person's mind.

And before we can even get in one single word in explanation you come right out and tell us that you are going to disagree with our teachings!?! Why would you plan on disagreeing with our teachings if we are merely going to explain them? That is preposterous! We already know that you disagree with them! And on top of that—as if that isn't outrageous enough—you couldn't even allow us to start with a clean slate—you pre-empted everything with your own quotes!

Those are not my own quotes but quotes from LDS manuals, magazines, and conference talks. If you disagree with quotes from LDS sources, say so.

You put up your favorite props before we even got on stage! And on top of all that you actually have the nerve right from the start to tell us—in this, our very own gifted thread!—that that which you've already concluded about our beliefs (that works factor into salvation or the reception of grace at all) is wrong! This is your idea of letting us explain our beliefs how we see them??? We're supposed to believe that this thread is for US to explain what WE believe? What an absolute JOKE!

The joke is that few LDS come here to explain their beliefs. They come here to make statements such as "You misrepresent us," "You don't understand," etc.

I'm sorry, but I have no confidence at this point that this thread will be any different than any other thread you've started, or in which you've posted that had anything to do with the LDS religion. You've already shown and told us that it won't be any different!

---

I'm sorry that this is so loaded with emotion. I know that that is way taboo around here. But this is just over the top as far as I'm concerned. It's just too much... way too much... unbelievable even...

Still complaining? Is that the real reason you posted to this thread? Why are you here?

 

[Dutch42]

Are works necessary for salvation?

I am not a LDS, but a question... is it possible that you are a Christian and there is no fruit? (when you have works, there has to be fruit)

I don't believe in a cheap Gospel. The grace is free.. But when Jesus is your Kurious.. Your Lord, Your King.. the works of the Lord is following you.

And I agree, it is not about the many works.. But like Jacobus and Paul said.. it belong together.

But.. I agree with you.. that you don't have to do the works what the top of an organisation said you have to do.. to work harder for your salvation...

In Christian way: The works are following...

In this part.. there is some similarity between the Islam.. and LSD

 

[TasteForTruth]

You forgot that I stay abreast of LDS teachings, and that I was a true member for many years. So, yes, explain what you believe. You can't explain what another LDS believes any more than John Doe can. Go ahead; tell people what you believe. I think that what the church teaches is what matters to non-LDS, not what TFT believes about the teachings. But if you give your opinion, we will see how it lines up with the leaders' teachings.




You can only speak for yourself. You don't know another person's mind.



Those are not my own quotes but quotes from LDS manuals, magazines, and conference talks. If you disagree with quotes from LDS sources, say so.




The joke is that few LDS come here to explain their beliefs. They come here to make statements such as "You misrepresent us," "You don't understand," etc.



Still complaining? Is that the real reason you posted to this thread? Why are you here?

I have nothing more to contribute here.

 

[RufustheRed]

I am not a LDS, but a question... is it possible that you are a Christian and there is no fruit? (when you have works, there has to be fruit)

I don't believe in a cheap Gospel. The grace is free.. But when Jesus is your Kurious.. Your Lord, Your King.. the works of the Lord is following you.

And I agree, it is not about the many works.. But like Jacobus and Paul said.. it belong together.

But.. I agree with you.. that you don't have to do the works what the top of an organisation said you have to do.. to work harder for your salvation...

In Christian way: The works are following...

In this part.. there is some similarity between the Islam.. and LSD

Just for the record and not to be critical, it is LDS. It is the abbreviation for Latter-Day Saint.

Rufus

 

[BarryK]

LOL, you can't be serious! Can't you see how blind you are to your own prejudices? Look at what you just said! You are supposedly starting this thread so that we LDS—we who are active, true, current members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints—can "explain what grace and salvation mean to [us]." ... We get to explain OUR teachings... seems like a dream come true, right?

Explain: Make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas.
​

...we are going to make clear what it is we believe... we are going to engage in an expository exercise... a non-confrontational, non-proselytizing, zero-intent-to-convert, no-strings-attached, just-plain-explain what grace and salvation mean to us exposition, so that non-LDS can understand what LDS teachings mean to LDS...

And before we can even get in one single word in explanation you come right out and tell us that you are going to disagree with our teachings!?! Why would you plan on disagreeing with our teachings if we are merely going to explain them? That is preposterous! We already know that you disagree with them! And on top of that—as if that isn't outrageous enough—you couldn't even allow us to start with a clean slate—you pre-empted everything with your own quotes! You put up your favorite props before we even got on stage! And on top of all that you actually have the nerve right from the start to tell us—in this, our very own gifted thread!—that that which you've already concluded about our beliefs (that works factor into salvation or the reception of grace at all) is wrong! This is your idea of letting us explain our beliefs how we see them??? We're supposed to believe that this thread is for US to explain what WE believe? What an absolute JOKE!

I'm sorry, but I have no confidence at this point that this thread will be any different than any other thread you've started, or in which you've posted that had anything to do with the LDS religion. You've already shown and told us that it won't be any different!

---

I'm sorry that this is so loaded with emotion. I know that that is way taboo around here. But this is just over the top as far as I'm concerned. It's just too much... way too much... unbelievable even...

PA posted what the LDS have published, this is part of the huge amount of material that is out there, this is LDS stuff, not stuff that belongs to us Christians, this is what the LDS teches, if you dont want to believe what the LDS teaches, the i suggest that you KATAREGO yourlsef from that orginization.

if you dont disagree with these teachings, the feel free to defend them.
but rather than actually deal with the situation before you, you go off on a rant about how blind PA is to her own predjuices, all while turning a blind eye to the huge dispatiry between what the Bible clearly says and what the LDS clearly teach

i strongly encourage you not to do such a thing, but operate from a place of intelectual honesty, and take a good long look at the contradiction between the LDs and the Bible

 

[BarryK]

I have nothing more to contribute here.

when complaing dont work, make accusations, when accusations dont work, use misdirection, when misdirection dosent work, leave.

wouldnt it be better to actuallly deal with the situation at hand, rather than pretend its not there ( ostrich apologetics)

 

[Rescued One]

I am not a LDS, but a question... is it possible that you are a Christian and there is no fruit? (when you have works, there has to be fruit)

I don't believe in a cheap Gospel. The grace is free.. But when Jesus is your Kurious.. Your Lord, Your King.. the works of the Lord is following you.

And I agree, it is not about the many works.. But like Jacobus and Paul said.. it belong together.

But.. I agree with you.. that you don't have to do the works what the top of an organisation said you have to do.. to work harder for your salvation...

In Christian way: The works are following...

In this part.. there is some similarity between the Islam.. and LSD

I agree with you.Those who belong to Christ are new creatures who aren't sitting on the sidelines ignoring the good work that God began.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 1:6

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Ephesians 5:8

Who [is] among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh [in] darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.
Isaiah 50:10

Please excuse the KJV if the language isn't clear.

 

[TasteForTruth]

when complaing dont work, make accusations, when accusations dont work, use misdirection, when misdirection dosent work, leave.

wouldnt it be better to actuallly deal with the situation at hand, rather than pretend its not there ( ostrich apologetics)

I did deal with it. I spoke very clearly and directly about it. My comments, which any open-minded, objective observer would agree are a good assessment of what is going on, were rejected by the creator of the thread. I see no reason, therefore, to contribute anything more in this thread—an environment that has been constrcuted under the guise of invited explication, yet whose framework is clearly pre-fabricated to stifle just that.

 

[RufustheRed]

PA posted what the LDS have published, this is part of the huge amount of material that is out there, this is LDS stuff, not stuff that belongs to us Christians, this is what the LDS teaches, if you don't want to believe what the LDS teaches, the I suggest that you KATAREGO yourself from that organization.

Do you mean καταργέω?

If you don't disagree with these teachings, the feel free to defend them.
But rather than actually deal with the situation before you, you go off on a rant about how blind PA is to her own prejudices, all while turning a blind eye to the huge disparity between what the Bible clearly says and what the LDS clearly teach.

Good point.

Rufus

 

[Rescued One]

I have nothing more to contribute here.

Are you saying that your leaders comments stifle your interest in explaining the LDS view of grace as you see it? Or is it the fact that non-LDS and LDS are not in agreement on this doctrine? I do not see why a difference of opinion stifles you since you choose to post here to clarify misconceptions about your faith. But then, in the next moment, you no longer want to clarify anything.

 

[Son of Zadok]

Let me make this as simple as I can. I am LDS and I say the LDS doctrine is simple. Anyone that wants to be saved - will be saved by the grace of G-d. I believe the unhappy people at the "Great Judgment Day" will be those that have no grace, hate their fellow man and have spent their entire lives trying to keep those they despise out of heaven.

So here is how I see some facing judgment - They come before G-d and say here I am G-d ready for all the grace and good stuff you promised me. The L-rd thanks them for showing up and says welcome to heaven and here is Brother Smith (a Mormon) that will show you around. To which the "good" Christian responds. WHAT!!! A MORMON!! I refuse to go to any heaven that allows Mormons. G-d starts to say, "but..." when he is interrupted by the “good” Christian who says, “You don’t fool me - I know the scriptures, this is not really heaven and you are not really G-d. I have faith and the real G-d will not let Mormons in heaven - no matter what and I can quote scriptures to prove it. You are a different Jesus and I am not falling for it. I’m going to the real heaven. GOOD DAY and GOOD BUY!!!


Now some of you may be laughing saying - This will never happen. This doctrine is a bunch a crap. But you know what - Jesus taught this principle in a parable - but he used different names for things back then. You see the “good” Christians then were called Jews and the Mormons that everybody knew were not going to heaven were called Samaritans.

Son of Zadok

 

[TasteForTruth]

if you dont disagree with these teachings, the feel free to defend them. but rather than actually deal with the situation before you, you go off on a rant about how blind PA is to her own predjuices, all while turning a blind eye to the huge dispatiry between what the Bible clearly says and what the LDS clearly teach

Good point.

Good point?... Good point? According to the invitation in the OP it is totally beside the point!:

...LDS can use this thread to explain what grace and salvation mean to them

That which PA, as per her own OP, would have us all believe to be the point is that this thread is where LDS may explain their teachings on grace, etc. That was the stated point. You three all suffer from the same mental malady—you are so blinded by your disdain for Mormonism that you cannot see how you construct situations in which fair, moderate, and accurate explication cannot possibly be the point. How can you not see this?

Such lofty ideals as we are led to believe are at the core of this, and other such threads are obliterated before the discussions even begin, just like in this very thread. Let me see if I can heal your blindness: http://www.christianforums.com/t7560756/

 

[TasteForTruth]

Are you saying that your leaders comments stifle your interest in explaining the LDS view of grace as you see it? Or is it the fact that non-LDS and LDS are not in agreement on this doctrine? I do not see why a difference of opinion stifles you since you choose to post here to clarify misconceptions about your faith. But then, in the next moment, you no longer want to clarify anything.

Please refer to post #2, wherein I very, very clearly expound why I have nothing more to contribute to your mousetrap thread.

 

[TasteForTruth]

Let me make this as simple as I can. I am LDS and I say the LDS doctrine is simple. Anyone that wants to be saved - will be saved by the grace of G-d. I believe the unhappy people at the "Great Judgment Day" will be those that have no grace, hate their fellow man and have spent their entire lives trying to keep those they despise out of heaven.

So here is how I see some facing judgment - They come before G-d and say here I am G-d ready for all the grace and good stuff you promised me. The L-rd thanks them for showing up and says welcome to heaven and here is Brother Smith (a Mormon) that will show you around. To which the "good" Christian responds. WHAT!!! A MORMON!! I refuse to go to any heaven that allows Mormons. G-d starts to say, "but..." when he is interrupted by the “good” Christian who says, “You don’t fool me - I know the scriptures, this is not really heaven and you are not really G-d. I have faith and the real G-d will not let Mormons in heaven - no matter what and I can quote scriptures to prove it. You are a different Jesus and I am not falling for it. I’m going to the real heaven. GOOD DAY and GOOD BUY!!!


Now some of you may be laughing saying - This will never happen. This doctrine is a bunch a crap. But you know what - Jesus taught this principle in a parable - but he used different names for things back then. You see the “good” Christians then were called Jews and the Mormons that everybody knew were not going to heaven were called Samaritans.

Son of Zadok

Don't do it, SoZ. Don't patronize this false interest in our doctrines. Our views are not wanted but to twist them and turn them on our heads. Just say no!

 

[Son of Zadok]

Don't do it, SoZ. Don't patronize this false interest in our doctrines. Our views are not wanted but to twist them and turn them on our heads. Just say no!

Now, Now my friend TastForTruth. It will be okay. Someday you and I can put our arms around some of these folks and say "Welcome to Heaven". There were some X-Mormons that did much worse things to Brother Joseph and when the night had passed - Joseph welcomed them with loving arms.

Son of Zadok

 

[TasteForTruth]

Now, Now my friend TastForTruth. It will be okay. Someday you and I can put our arms around some of these folks and say "Welcome to Heaven". There were some X-Mormons that did much worse things to Brother Joseph and when the night had passed - Joseph welcomed them with loving arms.

Son of Zadok

Yeah, and they shot him to death.

But I'm serious. Don't do it. Don't take the bait.

 

[RufustheRed]

Let me make this as simple as I can. I am LDS and I say the LDS doctrine is simple. Anyone that wants to be saved - will be saved by the grace of G-d. I believe the unhappy people at the "Great Judgment Day" will be those that have no grace, hate their fellow man and have spent their entire lives trying to keep those they despise out of heaven.

So here is how I see some facing judgment - They come before G-d and say here I am G-d ready for all the grace and good stuff you promised me. The L-rd thanks them for showing up and says welcome to heaven and here is Brother Smith (a Mormon) that will show you around. To which the "good" Christian responds. WHAT!!! A MORMON!! I refuse to go to any heaven that allows Mormons. G-d starts to say, "but..." when he is interrupted by the “good” Christian who says, “You don’t fool me - I know the scriptures, this is not really heaven and you are not really G-d. I have faith and the real G-d will not let Mormons in heaven - no matter what and I can quote scriptures to prove it. You are a different Jesus and I am not falling for it. I’m going to the real heaven. GOOD DAY and GOOD BUY!!!


Now some of you may be laughing saying - This will never happen. This doctrine is a bunch a crap. But you know what - Jesus taught this principle in a parable - but he used different names for things back then. You see the “good” Christians then were called Jews and the Mormons that everybody knew were not going to heaven were called Samaritans.

Son of Zadok

Did you dream this stuff up all by yourself? If you believe that this represents what orthodoxy teach/believes, you have been listening to too many Browns.

I guess I could do the same with the old three kingdom theology where heaven can mean being seperated from God forever (only in this case it would be TRUE), but I haven't the time to play with this drivel.

Have a good day developing your new novel.

Rufus

P.S. For the record, it is "GOOD DAY AND GOOD BY"

 

[RufustheRed]

Please refer to post #2, wherein I very, very clearly expound why I have nothing more to contribute to your mousetrap thread.

Then what are you still doing here?

Rufus