I am 19 years old and a member of a LCMS church, after reading some things I must ask the question "what is going on?" there is so much division in our synod. I have just started reading things about all of this infighting going on but what I do not hear much about is what we are doing about it. It seems that this middle ground stance that people are taking (by middle ground i mean LCMS is falling away from the true doctrine just to fit in with the world) Is getting to be a very real danger. It seems to me that alt of people are just saying well I am leaving, a lot of churches have already left the synod over the issues at hand but why? why leave? why not stay and say NO THIS IS WRONG and try to fix it, I am sure that there are people who are staying and fighting for what is right but from my point of view I am worried because I am part of the future of this synod and I am old enough to understand what the issues are. It just seems that our synod is going through a religious buffet it is just taking what IT thinks is good. It just seems to me that the responses to this danger that we are facing is very small. It just seems like we are not doing much about it, am I wrong? am I not looking in the right places to find what we are doing about this? I am not saying that I have a plan to fix it all or anything I just want to know what is going on. These liberal stances are at times taking away the core of our faith and I remember confessing before our Lord and before my congregation that I would rather die than fall away from the faith of our Lord Jesus all of you either have confessed this or will very soon. I can not just stand by and let the core of our faith be ripped away just so that the LCMS can fit in with this world. we (the church ) ARE NOT OF THIS WORLD our Lord bought us with a price the price of his blood and now people want to take that away from me, I will not just stand by and let this happen let me know what I can help do about this.
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LCMS- what is going on?
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I find your concern for these things, at your age, quite invigorating and really asense of the direction our synod will take in the future. Keep fighting the good fight.
There really haven't been many congregations that have left the synod. There are a great number of us who are staying to fight for the LCMS from within. The problem is that there is no real unity among the conservative faction in synod right now. There needs to be some leadership that all confessionals can get behind. Until that happens, it will be difficult for the synod to move away from the liberal, political direction that it is headed.
Keep your zeal for the faith and the truth up. We need more of our young members to make such stands in our synod.
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Most congregations really don't want to fight about anything and only want peace. Guess whose hand this plays into?
Let me describe my last congregation in the LCMS. They were very conservative, long time Lutherans. The church was in the middle of the Kieshnick-Benke controversy. Their reaction was "so" - so it didn't bother them, why stir up a bunch of dust over something that was done and over?
Roll in the Kieshnick political machine. "You want peace? You got peace." Most congregations do not realize that the political process has been stolen from them. It is in the hands of LCMS liberal theologians while your congregations sleep in quiet slumber and wonder what all the fuss is about. Fussing is bad isn't it? We should just stop and just get along.
Now you have Ablaze, PLI, Delto programs and how many congregations have been informed, shared a voice in their formation or even know what they are about? "Go to sleep, my little sheep. Rest well."
I am sorry. I am not sure all this sanctimonious "stay and fight" attitude is worth it. If LCMS had the fortitude to change things in the first place, its fortitude would have prevented it.
As long as LCMS consevative, confessionalism is embroiled in party politics, she will not be very effective. She needs to take a stand first to what she believes. It may be time to let the dead carcass go. You don't have the stomach or the votes to change anything for the better.
What a great beacon LCMS could be or whatever name she is called. "Freebird", who cares. But thousands are leaving the sinking ELCA. They are looking for some hope, some island of respite that would draw their weary and offer them comfort. They will continue to look right past Missouri until she stands for something worth cleaving to. Do you have another 50 years to waste, meddling in politics? Those folks coming out of the ELCA don't. Maybe they have the courage. Maybe some should follow. If all you wanted was unity and peace, we had that under Pope Leo.
Peace,
Cos
Let me describe my last congregation in the LCMS. They were very conservative, long time Lutherans. The church was in the middle of the Kieshnick-Benke controversy. Their reaction was "so" - so it didn't bother them, why stir up a bunch of dust over something that was done and over?
Roll in the Kieshnick political machine. "You want peace? You got peace." Most congregations do not realize that the political process has been stolen from them. It is in the hands of LCMS liberal theologians while your congregations sleep in quiet slumber and wonder what all the fuss is about. Fussing is bad isn't it? We should just stop and just get along.
Now you have Ablaze, PLI, Delto programs and how many congregations have been informed, shared a voice in their formation or even know what they are about? "Go to sleep, my little sheep. Rest well."
I am sorry. I am not sure all this sanctimonious "stay and fight" attitude is worth it. If LCMS had the fortitude to change things in the first place, its fortitude would have prevented it.
As long as LCMS consevative, confessionalism is embroiled in party politics, she will not be very effective. She needs to take a stand first to what she believes. It may be time to let the dead carcass go. You don't have the stomach or the votes to change anything for the better.
What a great beacon LCMS could be or whatever name she is called. "Freebird", who cares. But thousands are leaving the sinking ELCA. They are looking for some hope, some island of respite that would draw their weary and offer them comfort. They will continue to look right past Missouri until she stands for something worth cleaving to. Do you have another 50 years to waste, meddling in politics? Those folks coming out of the ELCA don't. Maybe they have the courage. Maybe some should follow. If all you wanted was unity and peace, we had that under Pope Leo.
Peace,
Cos
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Most congregations really don't want to fight about anything and only want peace. Guess whose hand this plays into?
Let me describe my last congregation in the LCMS. They were very conservative, long time Lutherans. The church was in the middle of the Kieshnick-Benke controversy. Their reaction was "so" - so it didn't bother them, why stir up a bunch of dust over something that was done and over?
Roll in the Kieshnick political machine. "You want peace? You got peace." Most congregations do not realize that the political process has been stolen from them. It is in the hands of LCMS liberal theologians while your congregations sleep in quiet slumber and wonder what all the fuss is about. Fussing is bad isn't it? We should just stop and just get along.
Now you have Ablaze, PLI, Delto programs and how many congregations have been informed, shared a voice in their formation or even know what they are about? "Go to sleep, my little sheep. Rest well."
I am sorry. I am not sure all this sanctimonious "stay and fight" attitude is worth it. If LCMS had the fortitude to change things in the first place, its fortitude would have prevented it.
As long as LCMS consevative, confessionalism is embroiled in party politics, she will not be very effective. She needs to take a stand first to what she believes. It may be time to let the dead carcass go. You don't have the stomach or the votes to change anything for the better.
What a great beacon LCMS could be or whatever name she is called. "Freebird", who cares. But thousands are leaving the sinking ELCA. They are looking for some hope, some island of respite that would draw their weary and offer them comfort. They will continue to look right past Missouri until she stands for something worth cleaving to. Do you have another 50 years to waste, meddling in politics? Those folks coming out of the ELCA don't. Maybe they have the courage. Maybe some should follow. If all you wanted was unity and peace, we had that under Pope Leo.
Peace,
Cos
I think that's precisely the wrong attitude to have. Besides, there isn't any other better alternative out there. The AALC isn't the answer for most because they are a mere formality away from jumping on board what some would call a sinking ship called the LCMS. Maybe our numbers are few, but if we left, where would we go?
I truly feel that the LCMS is worth saving. Maybe the only saving work for the synod would be an amicible split. Or maybe the SELC would secede from the synod if things got too out of hand.
I was encouraged at the more conservative, confessional attitudes that prevailed at the St. Louis sem while I was there, contrary to the horror stories that I had heard from the past. It may take some time, but I believe that nothing is so broken that it cannot be fixed.
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I agree with you that the LCMS has many problems and the seminaries are putting forth more confessional pastors, but we are dealing with a heirarchy that is made up of Pastors that came out of the Seminex era.
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How much time would you consider? 10, 20, 30 years? All the while the altars of Baal grow stronger in the land of God's children.
Peace,
Cos
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I just don't give a lot of credibility to those who have abandoned and then criticize from the outside.
And if I ever do leave, it can't be said that I hadn't given my all to teach and preach according to the foundations upon which this synod was founded.
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But they won't be there forever. Like I said, there is nothing so broke that it cannot be fixed.
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Rev, you yourself have all but given up on any possibility that Kieshnick won't get re-elected as your synodical president. Again.
My concern is for confessional, solid, conservative Lutheranism. This is becoming less and less tolerable in the LCMS political process. Hardly puts me on the outside. I have 20 years credibility behind my words. Especially when you consider that A & P fellowship between AALC and LCMS will make us partners in our concerns.
Listen to JT Mueller.
Although heterodox churches, in the common sense of the term, still adhere to the fundamentals of the Christian faith and so harbor true believers in their midst, nevertheless all Christians who recognize their error are duty bound to sever their connection with them, since on the one hand, one error is bound to produce others, Gal. 5,9, and, on the other, the toleration of a recognized falsehood is a denial of the divine truth, Matt. 19,32-36, and this is incompatible with the true Christian profession, Rom. 16,17; 2 Cor. 6,14-18. JT Mueller, p. 558
All churches that tolerate and follow such perverters of the divine truth are known as heterodox. Mueller, p. 556
If a church wishes to be truly orthodox, it must not only teach in conformity with Scripture, but insist upon a practice that is in strict accord with whatever the Word of God inculcates. Mueller, p. 557
Rev and I seem to agree on one point. He says,
"I truly feel that the LCMS is worth saving. Maybe the only saving work for the synod would be an amicible split."
Is LCMS approaching heterodoxy?
It is only the toleration of false doctrine and an unscriptural practice that makes a church heterodox.
This only LCMS and her members can decide. I wonder what Luther would have done? Walther? Elijah? They all separated from heterodox bodies. Did they have an alternative?
Peace,
Cos
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Having recently had the opportunity of meeting our esteemed Synod President, I can say that he is a very congenial man, but he is a politician more than a minister. He is shorter than I thought and has a thick Texan accent.
You can tell he enjoys the office he inhabits and that alone is why he caters to as many of the moderate and liberal groups as he can without giving up too much.
Daystar and Jesus First are his biggest supporters and lobby very heavily for him. The conservative contingent of the synod will never beat him unless they can find a way to get behind one-man (preferrably not someone endorsed by Herman Otten's "Christian News").
In 2004, those who were behind Kurt Marquardt did not like Daniel Preus and those who were behind Dean Wenthe were not behind Marquardt or Preus. If those behind Marquardt or Wenthe would have gathered behind Preus on the first ballot Kieschnick would have been defeated. He won the ballot on that first ballot rather than having to decide on the office after the 2nd or 3rd ballots as in past elections.
This is why the synod needs to adopt some kind of primary system like our national elections so that we have the best man up against the incumbent.
Either that or the conservatives need to have their own mini convention before the Synod convention to determine their candidate.
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I'm a realist. The reason that Keischnick will most likely be re-elected is because there is no conservative unity in the synod right now, spurned mostly by those outside who can't leave it alone.
So, when fellowship is declared, will you then leave the AALC? Where then will you go?
The official LCMS teaching and doctrine is not heterodox. The current leadership is. Those of us who maintain the synod stance are not outside the Church.
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Keischnick, theologically, is confessional. Politically, it's a different story. And you are correct that he is more a politician than a theologian.
BTW, I happen to be fond of Texan accents...
...well, one in particular anyway (and it's not Jerry!).
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Keischnick, theologically, is confessional. Politically, it's a different story. And you are correct that he is more a politician than a theologian.
BTW, I happen to be fond of Texan accents...
...well, one in particular anyway (and it's not Jerry!).
Me too. I married a woman with a slight Texas accent and then I took her to Minnesota for a 11+ year sentence and now she is in Fort Wayne with me, Suffice it to say she no longer has the accent.
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Me too. I married a woman with a slight Texas accent and then I took her to Minnesota for a 11+ year sentence and now she is in Fort Wayne with me, Suffice it to say she no longer has the accent.
You mean she doesn't speak Minnesotan?
Well, I have it on VERY good authority that you can take the woman out of Texas, but you'll NEVER take Texas out of the woman.
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You mean she doesn't speak Minnesotan?
Well, I have it on VERY good authority that you can take the woman out of Texas, but you'll NEVER take Texas out of the woman.
Ha Ha You are sooo funny. She lost the Texas accent. Her words are no longer draawwn ouuut.
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C.F.W. Walther
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While LCMS doctrine teaches that both the truths of scripture and mankind's need for forgiveness through Jesus are timeless and unchanging, members of the LCMS have varying views on how best to communicate God's love to people in a constantly changing human culture.
The "political" divisions might be defined as "traditionalists" (who espouse a reverent approach to worship and to sharing conservative doctrine) and "progressives" (who embrace contextually and culturally relevant worship and/or mission outreach with conservative doctrine). Notable influences in the recent internal transformations of the LCMS include the official LCMS Ablaze! movement, Jesus First, Day Star, and Voices/Vision, Renewal in Missouri (now defunct) the Pastoral Leadership Institute (PLI), Pastor Herman Otten and Christian News, Reclaiming Walther, Consensus, and Confess and Teach for Unity.
Critics maintain that these movements are confusing and a blending of many different doctrines, and that distinctions are muddled as the historical Sola Scriptura of the Lutheran heritage is seemingly compromised. Influences from the megachurches of American evangelicalism (eg Bill Hybels's "Becoming a Contagious Christian" from Willow Creek and Rick Warren's "Purpose Driven Life" from Saddleback Church) have been embraced in some LCMS congregations even though some LCMS members believe that they are not in harmony with Lutheran theology.
At the same time, various changes in the culture cause some strain on the historical institutional structure of the LCMS. For example, the synod has seen funding move from unrestricted gifts from members to designated gifts restricted to particular uses. These funding changes have contributed to significant cuts in funding for a large fraction of the LCMS overseas missionaries in recent years. Some view such funding changes to be politically motivated, though others see the changes to be an inevitable result of the way members have chosen to make contributions to the LCMS in recent years.
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Do a search on Crisis in LCMS. It will tell you way more than you want to know.
You can't say this is from those "outside" LCMS. ChristianNews may be reporting it, it doesn't mean they made it up. Keep your head in the sand. Even a frog won't jump out of boiling water if the temp doesn't rise too fast.
Peace,
Cos
You can't say this is from those "outside" LCMS. ChristianNews may be reporting it, it doesn't mean they made it up. Keep your head in the sand. Even a frog won't jump out of boiling water if the temp doesn't rise too fast.
Peace,
Cos
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I am assuming that you are directing this towards me...
But you never answered my question. Will you leave the AALC when fellowship is declared?
My head is not in the sand... but yours may be.
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