LCMS versus WELS

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Well, I'm going to just go ahead and say my thoughts on this issue. I'm going to ask a question that I'm sure has been asked before, but any WELS person I've ever asked it of has a blank stare on their face, and have never known how to answer. So here goes:

Why don't we put in the bulletin, or announce at the beginning of the service, that anyone who is of a different denomination or faith, please not pray with us today?
We do this for Communion (which I'm fine with, by the way).

Rad asked me, just before our service this past sunday, if it was ok for him to pray with us during the service. It made me have a rather sick feeling in my gut when he asked this. I told him to definately pray with us. WELS folks, would you say I should have told him "No"?

With all this said, I believe that no synod has it all correct....but I will add, that I think the WELS and ELS are as close to what Scripture teaches, as is possible. It's why I belong there.

Thanks for listening.

Totally respected....

My OWN policy prior to last September when I became officially Lutheran, vis-a-vis the Eucharist is that I completely ignored whatever might be in the worship folder or on a registration card and ESPECIALLY whatever my friend (assuming I am the guest of a member - which was typically the case) might say. I'd go to the church's website. IF the Eucharist is going to be celebrated, I'd phone (or at least email) the PASTOR at least several days before Sunday (if I didn't have time for this, I'd plan to not participate). I'd tell the pastor all the information I suspect he'll want to know (baptism status, where I worship and my specific and rather passionate views on the Eucharist) and I'd specifically invite and welcome ANY and ALL questions. IF I was specifically invited to participate - I'd be very apt to do so. IF I was advised not to, I'd take that advise and take absolutely no offense. Generally, the more pastoral the pastor was, the better I felt about the whole process - regardless of the final counsel.

Now that I'm officially LCMS, I would follow this exact policy but only in the case of another LCMS congregation (I'm following the advise of my pastor that the Eucharist not be received in a non LCMS congregation).

The thought that I would not be welcomed worshiping in a church (ie "praying with them") - especially a Lutheran church - is something I've never even considered. I would hope they would make their closed nature very, very clear on their website, in the phonebook, on the sign, or at the very, very least - to me as I walk in the door. I would not desire to give offense. I suddenly do see the point, however. If a denomination regards it as wrong to pray with me in the hospital then it probably also regrads it as wrong to pray with me in church.


It's called respect.



Thank you for permitting my $0.005 on this controversal issue.


Pax


- Josiah





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[Studeclunker]

Since there's biblical backing for why we believe what we believe, I don't think it's fair to call them "such unimportant issues".

Well, Beckie, that's what the (no offense meant) J.W.s say. I've attended both denominations and studied both. The WELS viewpoint I found to be far too strict and almost closed-minded. Then again, I came from the LCA, so go figure.

At this point in time, I can only point to the problems the LCMS is having within its walls. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, you may find three LCMS churches in an area who all practice something different. One of those churches probably offers open communion. I foresee a day in the near future when some of the more liberal LCMS congregations will begin ordaining women, because of the already soft approach on the role of women in the church. Once you start cherry picking which parts of the bible to follow, it becomes very easy to throw out other parts as well. This is what the ELCA has done on a whole and we see where that has taken them.

This is a considerable problem in the LCMS, to be sure. Still, there is a considerable difference between what's happening in the LCMS and what happened to the ELCA. In this case, the rights and respect of women, I very seriously doubt that the LCMS will ever go as far as the ELCA. Unless of course, our dear leader gets his way and turns the LCMS into an episcopy (sp?).

The problem with the ELCA was the losing of proper doctrine and respect for scripture. They erred in the same way as the state church in Germany did. Biblical chriticism coupled with loose theology and doctrine. The merger that produced the ELCA has turned out to be a disaster. The loss of the firm foundation for doctrine and theology is what is now producing the problems with women, homosexuals, and the clergy in the ELCA. Sadly, the signs are that the church leadership has fallen beyond any recovery. Folks, I say this from first-hand knowledge. I've been there.

The WELS went off on the wrong track quite some time ago and it was the LCMS that brought us back on path. When we tried to do the same, we were rebuffed and rebuked. All we can do now is pray for unity, but until doctrines change to reflect the bible's teachings, that will not happen.

And with that, I'm backing out of this thread. I love my LCMS brothers and sisters and look forward to a blessed reunion in heaven with them.

Perhaps, some of this extremist reaction is because of WELS having lost their way once. A desire to never deal with that again. I wouldn't know. It is this very attitude of WELS that kept me from joining fifteen years ago. LCMS has some serious problems. That can't be denied. However, withdrawing from the community is a serious problem in theology and doctrine. Was not Peter himself ordered to eat with the Gentiles? Look through most of Paul's writings. He constantly fought against Jewdizers. Yet, the inconsistancy of the LCMS is a serious problem as well. So neither of us can say we're better than the other. Only the return of our Lord will stay this argument, I fear.

Don't back out, Beckie, that's just the problem between our Synods. Lack of communication just may rob the WELS of returning the favour and saving the LCMS from itself.

 

[Studeclunker]

Well, I'm going to just go ahead and say my thoughts on this issue. I'm going to ask a question that I'm sure has been asked before, but any WELS person I've ever asked it of has a blank stare on their face, and have never known how to answer. So here goes:

Why don't we put in the bulletin, or announce at the beginning of the service, that anyone who is of a different denomination or faith, please not pray with us today?
We do this for Communion (which I'm fine with, by the way).

Rad asked me, just before our service this past sunday, if it was ok for him to pray with us during the service. It made me have a rather sick feeling in my gut when he asked this. I told him to definately pray with us. WELS folks, would you say I should have told him "No"?

With all this said, I believe that no synod has it all correct....but I will add, that I think the WELS and ELS are as close to what Scripture teaches, as is possible. It's why I belong there.

Thanks for listening.

And there you have it. Very well said, Sis. It seemed to me, when I was asking questions and studying the WELS viewpoint, that the issue was not others praying with WELS members but the reverse. The leadership didn't want their members participating in another... for lack of a better word; tainted... worship activity. They wouldn't commune myself or even allow my son and I up to the altar. However, they didn't exclude us from prayer or bible-study. The pastor was very accomodating in helping me to understand what the denomination believed and wasn't chritical in any way. In the end it was my decision to choose the LCMS.

With all this said, I believe that no synod has it all correct....but I will add, that I think the WELS and ELS are as close to what Scripture teaches, as is possible. It's why I belong there.

I couldn't agree more, with however the caveat that I think the LCMS is correct for my consience. Sadly, if the LCMS continues to self-destruct, I may have no choice but to come over to the WELS side. Nevertheless and however, well said Seajoy, your sentiment is exactly how we all should act on our beliefs and convictions.

 

[Melethiel]

Well, I'm going to just go ahead and say my thoughts on this issue. I'm going to ask a question that I'm sure has been asked before, but any WELS person I've ever asked it of has a blank stare on their face, and have never known how to answer. So here goes:

Why don't we put in the bulletin, or announce at the beginning of the service, that anyone who is of a different denomination or faith, please not pray with us today?
We do this for Communion (which I'm fine with, by the way).

Rad asked me, just before our service this past sunday, if it was ok for him to pray with us during the service. It made me have a rather sick feeling in my gut when he asked this. I told him to definately pray with us. WELS folks, would you say I should have told him "No"?

With all this said, I believe that no synod has it all correct....but I will add, that I think the WELS and ELS are as close to what Scripture teaches, as is possible. It's why I belong there.

Thanks for listening.

I've been attending a WELS church for over a month, and have been welcomed in services, invited to several Bible studies (where there is prayer), and volunteered a bit as organist, while never hiding my ELCA background and the fact that I'm not WELS to those who asked. I'm very happy that they're not as strict about "fellowship" as the official stance seems to imply, otherwise I'd never have stuck around there.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, I'm going to just go ahead and say my thoughts on this issue. I'm going to ask a question that I'm sure has been asked before, but any WELS person I've ever asked it of has a blank stare on their face, and have never known how to answer. So here goes:

Why don't we put in the bulletin, or announce at the beginning of the service, that anyone who is of a different denomination or faith, please not pray with us today?
We do this for Communion (which I'm fine with, by the way).

Rad asked me, just before our service this past sunday, if it was ok for him to pray with us during the service. It made me have a rather sick feeling in my gut when he asked this. I told him to definately pray with us. WELS folks, would you say I should have told him "No"?

With all this said, I believe that no synod has it all correct....but I will add, that I think the WELS and ELS are as close to what Scripture teaches, as is possible. It's why I belong there.

Thanks for listening.

No, we don't tell people not to pray with us. We just don't go actively praying with other people. For example, I was at a funeral dinner last week where someone stood up to give the meal prayer. This person was Methodist, so we did not pray with him. We said our own private table prayer. We didn't make a big deal of it, we didn't bring attention to ourselves.

When 9/11 happened, several churches held interfaith worship services. I didn't attend any of them. When my home church was asked to participate in a prayer breakfast, the pastors declined.

There are a lot of WELS members who do not understand fellowship. For those that don't, I recommend reading the People's Bible book on it. We also have a bible class here that helps the layperson better understand the scriptural notion behind it.

 

[seajoy]

I've been attending a WELS church for over a month, and have been welcomed in services, invited to several Bible studies (where there is prayer), and volunteered a bit as organist, while never hiding my ELCA background and the fact that I'm not WELS to those who asked. I'm very happy that they're not as strict about "fellowship" as the official stance seems to imply, otherwise I'd never have stuck around there.

What you are saying is making my point exactly! Every WELS church welcomes folks to their Bible studies etc..... It's why I said what I did. We are a welcoming group of people, eager to share Scripture. It's why I question the prayer part of our "rules" (for lack of a better word).

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I've been attending a WELS church for over a month, and have been welcomed in services, invited to several Bible studies (where there is prayer), and volunteered a bit as organist, while never hiding my ELCA background and the fact that I'm not WELS to those who asked. I'm very happy that they're not as strict about "fellowship" as the official stance seems to imply, otherwise I'd never have stuck around there.

Thanks for sharing that!!!!!

As I noted earlier, in MY limited experience, WELS folks have been very gracious, loving and embracing. WHATEVER issues might have existed and perhaps still do hasn't been felt by ME personally - at all. My respect for this group continues to grow.

Thanks again!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[seajoy]

No, we don't tell people not to pray with us. We just don't go actively praying with other people. For example, I was at a funeral dinner last week where someone stood up to give the meal prayer. This person was Methodist, so we did not pray with him. We said our own private table prayer. We didn't make a big deal of it, we didn't bring attention to ourselves.

When 9/11 happened, several churches held interfaith worship services. I didn't attend any of them. When my home church was asked to participate in a prayer breakfast, the pastors declined.

There are a lot of WELS members who do not understand fellowship. For those that don't, I recommend reading the People's Bible book on it. We also have a bible class here that helps the layperson better understand the scriptural notion behind it.

You did bow your head at a table where a Methodist was praying. No one, but God, knew that you were praying your own private prayers. To others, it may have looked like you were praying along.

I agree with you about the 9/11 stuff.

I don't really appreciate being told I have a lack of understanding about WELS fellowship, but I will take a look at the book you suggested...and I plan to talk with my Pastor.

 

[porterross]

What I find unfortunate about the WELS attitude toward members of the LCMS is the manner in which it comes across sometimes. My experiences attending a WELS church were less than positive and I was treated as nothing less than a heretic by the pastor with no offer to discuss why. I guess he assumed I should have know, but he was wrong. I was in college and had no clue.

Mind you, a few of the members there didn't appreciate the way this man behaved, but once I learned a bit more about the limited roles of women (which I don't agree are Scripturally mandated), it all seemed to make sense in a way that left a very bad taste in my mouth all because of poor communication skills. I felt bad for the folks that seemed desperate to have younger folks attending, but overall, it seemed to me to be a very unwelcoming place and it was hurtful.

I've often wondered if this isn't how some in the ELCA have been treated by those in the LCMS and if so, then I can see why they have the attitude they do towards us as a whole. There must be a way to help people understand our doctrinal positions without making them feel inferior for being taught differently. Better to welcome and openly discuss beliefs to determine whether or not they can be accepted or not.

I see no need to make people feel they're not worthy of even taking part in prayer or being given time to ask questions as to why they are viewed as such outsiders. I think we all need to be more careful and patient with those whom the Holy Spirit leads to our sanctuaries.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You did bow your head at a table where a Methodist was praying. No one, but God, knew that you were praying your own private prayers. To others, it may have looked like you were praying along.

I agree with you about the 9/11 stuff.

I don't really appreciate being told I have a lack of understanding about WELS fellowship, but I will take a look at the book you suggested...and I plan to talk with my Pastor.

Nope, didn't bow my head either.

I myself didn't understand fellowship and had the same complaints you did until I read the book and did the bible study. No offense was meant in what I said and it wasn't even directed at you personally.

 

[seajoy]

What I find unfortunate about the WELS attitude toward members of the LCMS is the manner in which it comes across sometimes. My experiences attending a WELS church were less than positive and I was treated as nothing less than a heretic by the pastor with no offer to discuss why. I guess he assumed I should have know, but he was wrong. I was in college and had no clue.

Mind you, a few of the members there didn't appreciate the way this man behaved, but once I learned a bit more about the limited roles of women (which I don't agree are Scripturally mandated), it all seemed to make sense in a way that left a very bad taste in my mouth all because of poor communication skills. I felt bad for the folks that seemed desperate to have younger folks attending, but overall, it seemed to me to be a very unwelcoming place and it was hurtful.

I've often wondered if this isn't how some in the ELCA have been treated by those in the LCMS and if so, then I can see why they have the attitude they do towards us as a whole. There must be a way to help people understand our doctrinal positions without making them feel inferior for being taught differently. Better to welcome and openly discuss beliefs to determine whether or not they can be accepted or not.

I see no need to make people feel they're not worthy of even taking part in prayer or being given time to ask questions as to why they are viewed as such outsiders. I think we all need to be more careful and patient with those whom the Holy Spirit leads to our sanctuaries.

Well said.....and I'm sorry for the way you were treated at that church when you were in college. You would not be treated that way in my current church.

 

[seajoy]

but once I learned a bit more about the limited roles of women (which I don't agree are Scripturally mandated),

Except this part

But the rest was well said.

 

[seajoy]

Nope, didn't bow my head either.

Thought that's what we are supposed to do when we pray. Well, when I drive and pray, I don't bow my head either, I guess. But this seems a little different.

I myself didn't understand fellowship and had the same complaints you did until I read the book and did the bible study. No offense was meant in what I said and it wasn't even directed at you personally.

Oh, well you had quoted me, so I thought you were talking about people like me.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Thought that's what we are supposed to do when we pray. Well, when I drive and pray, I don't bow my head either, I guess. But this seems a little different.

Generally, when I'm in a situation where I'm in a mixed crowd, I may do either. If one has already stood and given the table prayer, I often don't bow my head, when he or she is giving the prayer, or afterwards when I pray separately. Basically I'm not trying to call attention to what I'm doing.

Oh, well you had quoted me, so I thought you were talking about people like me.

Nope, just people in general. I am really sorry that you thought I had directed that at you. It's just something I've observed. Like I said, I didn't understand for a long time and I had parts of it wrong and here I was trying to explain to other people! It was quite the mess until I read the book and then later did the bible study.

So please accept my apology for even insinuating anything personal about you. I don't know how much you know about fellowship or whether you understand it fully or not...but those books and bible study will definitely come in handy for ANYONE who wants to know or learn more about the doctrine of fellowship.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

I live in Iowa and I have never seen a WELS church before. I guess it would be sort of cool to see one and maybe attend a service, but I can't really draw an impression from stuff I've just heard. Life would be a lot easier if all of the ELCA churches around us were WELS. Not just because of how liberal the ELCA is, but because one of the ELCA churches around us was a part of seminex....grrrrrr.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You won't see much difference in the services, actually. I think our liturgies may vary in word usage. Unless you're talking contemporary service...that's out of my league.

Most laypeople attending an LCMS church and then a WELS church wouldn't notice too many differences.

 

[usafbrat64]

I foresee a day in the near future when some of the more liberal LCMS congregations will begin ordaining women, because of the already soft approach on the role of women in the church.

I don't quite understand what is meant by the soft approach on the role of women.
I know that as a female member of LCMS I cannot:
Assist Holy Communion
Read the Gospel reading during Divine Service
Serve as a chair of a committee
Serve as the chair of the congregation
And there are some congregations where I cannot:
Be the director of the VBS if there are men who will be assisting
Be the director/principal of a preschool/school if there are male teachers
Set up or clean up Holy Communion

Basically I can vote and fix lunch! Oh, and play the organ.

Yvonne

Just had to add this in: Our congregation chair informed us one Sunday that LWML stood for Lutheran Women Make Lunch!

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I don't quite understand what is meant by the soft approach on the role of women.
I know that as a female member of LCMS I cannot:
Assist Holy Communion
Read the Gospel reading during Divine Service
Serve as a chair of a committee
Serve as the chair of the congregation
And there are some congregations where I cannot:
Be the director of the VBS if there are men who will be assisting
Be the director/principal of a preschool/school if there are male teachers
Set up or clean up Holy Communion

Basically I can vote and fix lunch! Oh, and play the organ.

Yvonne

Just had to add this in: Our congregation chair informed us one Sunday that LWML stood for Lutheran Women Make Lunch!

You don't set up communion or take it down?

At WELS church it's the altar guild that does that.

Anyway, the core difference is that we believe that voting asserts authority over men.

I believe that women can also be on the church council in the LCMS. Is that correct or did I hear wrong?

And I like the LWML acronym. Funny. We have LWMS - Lutheran Women Make Sandwiches!

 

[DaRev]

I know that as a female member of LCMS I cannot:
Assist Holy Communion

True. This is a function of the pastoral office. Women cannot perform the functions of the pastoral office, nor have oversight of the functions of the pastoral office.

Read the Gospel reading during Divine Service

Also true. Same as above.

Serve as a chair of a committee
Serve as the chair of the congregation

Yes they can in the LCMS, as long as they don't have any oversight of the pastoral office or it's functions.

And there are some congregations where I cannot:
Be the director of the VBS if there are men who will be assisting

Yes you can in the LCMS.

Be the director/principal of a preschool/school if there are male teachers

Yes you can in the LCMS. These are man made offices that do not involve functions of the pastoral office.

Set up or clean up Holy Communion

Yes you can. Most altar guild members are women.

 

[porterross]

I don't quite understand what is meant by the soft approach on the role of women.
I know that as a female member of LCMS I cannot:

Serve as a chair of a committee

I've never heard that before. Most committees I've had experience with were indeed chaired by women and members of the council.

And there are some congregations where I cannot:
Be the director of the VBS if there are men who will be assisting
Be the director/principal of a preschool/school if there are male teachers
Set up or clean up Holy Communion

I've never heard of any of those restrictions before in any LCMS congregation.

Basically I can vote and fix lunch! Oh, and play the organ.

If that were true, it's likely I would have been raised in a different denomination or I'd have changed membership a long time ago.


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