LCMS and YEC vs OEC

[FaithT]

I don't think we can know that. If I was guessing, I'd guess something in the hundreds of thousands of years, but there's no way to know. And that is another important step - accepting "I don't know" as an answer. It's one of the things I love about Lutheran theology - that it seems one of the few strains of Christianity that is willing to answer some questions with "I don't know" or even "that's not a religious question." Some strains of Christianity seem to think the Bible will answer every question from how long to boil an egg to where you left your car keys.

So, if you read the Bible instead of creationist websites (not saying you do that), you'll notice the Bible never states the age of the earth. All the numbers people come up with are uninformed numbers games. At one time I had a paper from an Egyptologist who was explaining why it's nearly impossible to date the reigns of the Pharaohs, and such is the case with much of ancient history.

We're not even sure about the correct date of birth for Martin Luther.

And geology is no better. For the most part I'm willing to accept geological methods for sequencing - that is, for saying this thing is older than that thing, but when it comes to specific dates ...

Sometimes people speak about science as if it just documents what is obvious and plainly right in front of your face, as if because of "method" all you need is a monkey to push buttons, which is simply not true. Some can teach, some can't. Some can create beautiful art, some can't. Some can lead a nation, some can't. Some can do science, some can't.

In these cases, then, when the answer heads toward "I don't know", you need to ask yourself, "Is it really important?" Given the Bible doesn't state the age of the earth, I'm willing to venture it's not an important religious question - if it's even a religious question at all.

It sounds like you're willing to - maybe even like to - read. If so, I'd suggest "Natural Science in Western History" by Frederick Gregory. It stays at a fairly simple level, but has an excellent summary of the problems that have plagued science - things you won't learn in school or hear from proponents of scientism. There is also the book by Kitty Ferguson that isn't as academic ("The Fire in the Equations"). Anything beyond that and you'll have to dig into some deep esoteric issues to really understand what's going on. Though I guess another read that espouses the view that science is not infallible comes from Jonah Lehrer and was published in The New Yorker in December of 2010 called "Is There Something Wrong With the Scientific Method?" I think the article is spot on, but people who say such things are often labeled as nuts, so keep that in mind.

And if I remember correctly, you’re LCMS, too, right?

 

[Resha Caner]

And if I remember correctly, you’re LCMS, too, right?

Yes.

 

[FaithT]

I don't think we can know that. If I was guessing, I'd guess something in the hundreds of thousands of years, but there's no way to know. And that is another important step - accepting "I don't know" as an answer. It's one of the things I love about Lutheran theology - that it seems one of the few strains of Christianity that is willing to answer some questions with "I don't know" or even "that's not a religious question." Some strains of Christianity seem to think the Bible will answer every question from how long to boil an egg to where you left your car keys.

So, if you read the Bible instead of creationist websites (not saying you do that), you'll notice the Bible never states the age of the earth. All the numbers people come up with are uninformed numbers games. At one time I had a paper from an Egyptologist who was explaining why it's nearly impossible to date the reigns of the Pharaohs, and such is the case with much of ancient history.

We're not even sure about the correct date of birth for Martin Luther.

And geology is no better. For the most part I'm willing to accept geological methods for sequencing - that is, for saying this thing is older than that thing, but when it comes to specific dates ...

Sometimes people speak about science as if it just documents what is obvious and plainly right in front of your face, as if because of "method" all you need is a monkey to push buttons, which is simply not true. Some can teach, some can't. Some can create beautiful art, some can't. Some can lead a nation, some can't. Some can do science, some can't.

In these cases, then, when the answer heads toward "I don't know", you need to ask yourself, "Is it really important?" Given the Bible doesn't state the age of the earth, I'm willing to venture it's not an important religious question - if it's even a religious question at all.

It sounds like you're willing to - maybe even like to - read. If so, I'd suggest "Natural Science in Western History" by Frederick Gregory. It stays at a fairly simple level, but has an excellent summary of the problems that have plagued science - things you won't learn in school or hear from proponents of scientism. There is also the book by Kitty Ferguson that isn't as academic ("The Fire in the Equations"). Anything beyond that and you'll have to dig into some deep esoteric issues to really understand what's going on. Though I guess another read that espouses the view that science is not infallible comes from Jonah Lehrer and was published in The New Yorker in December of 2010 called "Is There Something Wrong With the Scientific Method?" I think the article is spot on, but people who say such things are often labeled as nuts, so keep that in mind.

I didn’t find the article Is There Something Wrong With the Scientific Method? But I did find an article about it. I just skimmed it, didn’t have time to read it all but is the article you suggested about how scientists just often publish their positive results, misleading the public?

 

[Resha Caner]

I didn’t find the article Is There Something Wrong With the Scientific Method? But I did find an article about it. I just skimmed it, didn’t have time to read it all but is the article you suggested about how scientists just often publish their positive results, misleading the public?

Scientists try to guard against confirmation bias, which is unintentionally skewing results to be what you want them to be. Peer review and repeatability are supposed to be safeguards against that. The article is about the extreme pressure in the pharmaceutical industry to find profitable drugs, and how, despite all the safeguards, several widely used, highly profitable drugs approved by the FDA, have, over time, proven to be much less effective than first thought.

For all its truth claims, science is, in the end, a human endeavor - subject to all the flaws of being human.

 

[FaithT]

This, below, is from the LCMS website. It says that there are several ways of harmonizing Scripture with scientific studies. It gives only one example....that the earth was created to look old. I don’t buy that. What other ways does the LCMS harmonize Scripture with science on this topic?


<<<<<<<<The Bible
Age of the earth
Q: What is the LCMS position regarding the age of the earth? Must we accept literally the creation account that points in the direction of a relatively young earth, given the amount of scientific evidence that concludes the earth's age to be in the billions of years?

A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod does not have an official position on the precise "age of the earth," since the Bible itself does not tell us how old the earth is. Nor is it the Synod's position that everything in the Bible is to be understood "literally." There is much in the Bible that clearly purports not to be understood literally--but this must be determined by the Bible itself, not by science or human reason. There is nothing in the Bible itself to suggest that the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.
The Synod has affirmed the belief, therefore, based on Scripture's account of creation in the book of Genesis and other clear passages of Scripture, that "God by the almighty power of His Word created all things in six days by a series of creative acts," that "Adam and Eve were real, historical human beings, the first two people in the world," and that "we must confess what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12" about the origin of sin through Adam as described in Genesis 3 (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31). The Synod has also, therefore, stated that it rejects "all those world views, philosophical theories, exegetical interpretations and other hypotheses which pervert these biblical teachings and thus obscure the Gospel" (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31).
At the same time, the Synod firmly believes that there can be no actual contradiction between genuine scientific truth and the Bible. When it comes to the issue of the age of the earth, several possibilities exist for "harmonizing" Biblical teachings with scientific studies (e.g., God created the world in an already "mature" state, so that scientific "data" leads one to the conclusion that it is older than it actually is, etc.) >>>>>

Numerous books are available that discuss these issues in more detail. One of these is Studies in Creation by John Klotz (1985), available by contacting Concordia Publishing House (800-325-3040 or www.cph.org), and asking for stock no. 12-3004.
Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion. Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295 888-843-5267 • infocenter@lcms.org • www.lcms.org/faqs

 

[FaithT]

This, below, is from the LCMS website. It says that there are several ways of harmonizing Scripture with scientific studies. It gives only one example....that the earth was created to look old. I don’t buy that. What other ways does the LCMS harmonize Scripture with science on this topic?


<<<<<<<<The Bible
Age of the earth
Q: What is the LCMS position regarding the age of the earth? Must we accept literally the creation account that points in the direction of a relatively young earth, given the amount of scientific evidence that concludes the earth's age to be in the billions of years?

A: The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod does not have an official position on the precise "age of the earth," since the Bible itself does not tell us how old the earth is. Nor is it the Synod's position that everything in the Bible is to be understood "literally." There is much in the Bible that clearly purports not to be understood literally--but this must be determined by the Bible itself, not by science or human reason. There is nothing in the Bible itself to suggest that the creation account is not meant to be taken literally.
The Synod has affirmed the belief, therefore, based on Scripture's account of creation in the book of Genesis and other clear passages of Scripture, that "God by the almighty power of His Word created all things in six days by a series of creative acts," that "Adam and Eve were real, historical human beings, the first two people in the world," and that "we must confess what St. Paul says in Romans 5:12" about the origin of sin through Adam as described in Genesis 3 (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31). The Synod has also, therefore, stated that it rejects "all those world views, philosophical theories, exegetical interpretations and other hypotheses which pervert these biblical teachings and thus obscure the Gospel" (1967 Synodical Resolution 2-31).
At the same time, the Synod firmly believes that there can be no actual contradiction between genuine scientific truth and the Bible. When it comes to the issue of the age of the earth, several possibilities exist for "harmonizing" Biblical teachings with scientific studies (e.g., God created the world in an already "mature" state, so that scientific "data" leads one to the conclusion that it is older than it actually is, etc.) >>>>>

Numerous books are available that discuss these issues in more detail. One of these is Studies in Creation by John Klotz (1985), available by contacting Concordia Publishing House (800-325-3040 or www.cph.org), and asking for stock no. 12-3004.
Usage: We urge you to contact an LCMS pastor in your area for more in-depth discussion. Published by: LCMS Church Information Center
©The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
1333 S. Kirkwood Road, St. Louis, MO 63122-7295 888-843-5267 • infocenter@lcms.org • www.lcms.org/faqs

Never mind. I just had a GREAT talk with my pastor, (in email) and everything is fine now!

 

[Tigger45]

Never mind. I just had a GREAT talk with my pastor, (in email) and everything is fine now!

Let us know how things progress.

 

[FaithT]

Let us know how things progress.

I’m just getting antsy waiting for quarantine to end and we can worship in person instead of live streaming.