Lay Presidency

[Liberasit]

This came up on another thread. The notion that someone other than a presbyter can preside over the Lord's Table.

A lot of the politics of this is wrapped up in the Diocese of Sydney, who championed it. They are at one ends of churchmanship and are characterised with other distinctive values and practices. Let's not dwell on these.

Why do some people believe that only a presbyter can preside at the Lord's Supper and why do others think that presidency should be open to deacons and licensed lay ministers?

 

[ebia]

This came up on another thread. The notion that someone other than a presbyter can preside over the Lord's Table.

A lot of the politics of this is wrapped up in the Diocese of Sydney, who championed it. They are at one ends of churchmanship and are characterised with other distinctive values and practices. Let's not dwell on these.

Why do some people believe that only a presbyter can preside at the Lord's Supper and why do others think that presidency should be open to deacons and licensed lay ministers?

in no particular order:
Unity
Good order
Consistency
Tradition
Because some things are best not messed around with unless there is an exceptionally good reason to do so

 

[Albion]

By the way, Anglicanism already utilizes "deacon's masses," so how much of a leap are we talking about anyway?

 

[ebia]

By the way, Anglicanism already utilizes "deacon's masses,"

What exactly are you referring to?

 

[Albion]

What exactly are you referring to?

A deacon is permitted to officiate at the Order for Holy Communion, according to the BCP, except that the absolution is reworded to make it impersonal and he distributes previously consecrated elements.

 

[ebia]

A deacon is permitted to officiate at the Order for Holy Communion, according to the BCP, except that the absolution is reworded to make it impersonal and he distributes previously consecrated elements.

which is the key point, is it not?

(Not that I think such services are especially helpful)

 

[Albion]

which is the key point, is it not?

Well, I'm only saying that that this "lay presidency" issue as it concerns deacons doesn't seem as big a leap from current practice as it might at first glance.

 

[ebia]

Well, I'm only saying that that this "lay presidency" issue as it concerns deacons doesn't seem as big a leap from current practice as it might at first glance.

Getting a bit closer to the edge doesn't make the gap any narrower.

 

[Liberasit]

in no particular order:
Unity
Good order
Consistency
Tradition
Because some things are best not messed around with unless there is an exceptionally good reason to do so

Unity goes both ways, presumably
Good order - lay presidency should also be orderly
Tradition - hard to argue
Perhaps there is a good reason for lay presidency when it's perceived as being needed.

 

[Liberasit]

A deacon is permitted to officiate at the Order for Holy Communion, according to the BCP, except that the absolution is reworded to make it impersonal and he distributes previously consecrated elements.

All our absolutions in my fellowship are "we" and "us".

 

[Liberasit]

I think for me, and forgive me if eloquence fails me, is that the ministry of the word is superior to the Lord's Supper.

It has been long the tradition, especially in evangelical fellowships, that lay people can deliver the gospel readings and expound.

If the superior part of the service can be delivered by lay people, then surely the inferior part can also be delivered by lay people.

I am not suggesting that people are dragged off the street to preside, but anyone should be trained and validated under the auspices of the bishop.

 

[Albion]

All our absolutions in my fellowship are "we" and "us".

We use the historic BCP, but there's no "I" in the absolution anyway.

 

[Liberasit]

A deacon is permitted to officiate at the Order for Holy Communion, according to the BCP, except that the absolution is reworded to make it impersonal and he distributes previously consecrated elements.

So this isn't quite lay presidency but it is close?

 

[ebia]

Unity goes both ways, presumably

Without quibbling over semantics, yes.
But the issue isn't symetrical - the proponents of lay presidency can theologically cope without it, the opponents cannot with it.

Good order - lay presidency should also be orderly

It should, but its more difficult to ensure that it always is.

Tradition - hard to argue
Perhaps there is a good reason for lay presidency when it's perceived as being needed.

Eh?
"It's needed because someone says it's needed?"
A case would need to be made.

 

[Liberasit]

Well, I'm only saying that that this "lay presidency" issue as it concerns deacons doesn't seem as big a leap from current practice as it might at first glance.

I have found that there is so much latitude that any exceptions are typically fine, especially if the archdeacon is on board.

The archdeacon will be looking at mission and will grant any exceptions to liturgy if they promote mission.

 

[Liberasit]

Without quibbling over semantics, yes.
But the issue isn't symetrical - the proponents of lay presidency can theologically cope without it, the opponents cannot with it.


It should, but its more difficult to ensure that it always is.

Eh?
"It's needed because someone says it's needed?"
A case would need to be made.

I'm sorry but having a geriatric/blond moment. My bad.

I don't understand your points.

 

[Liberasit]

I would urge everyone to keep this thread as one where we can learn from one another rather than trying to compete and win.

To me, I have no experience of lay presidency but I don't think I have any objections either. I am happy to be enlightened but I don't really want to be talked down to or be told I am wrong for having an open mind.

Reason is the second value of Scripture, Reason, Tradition that underpins Anglicanism.

 

[Yardstick]

This seems like a pretty compelling argument against Lay Presidency On The Eucharist: Why We Need a Presbyter at the Altar | The Conciliar Anglican

 

[Liberasit]

A deacon is permitted to officiate at the Order for Holy Communion, according to the BCP, except that the absolution is reworded to make it impersonal and he distributes previously consecrated elements.

We have a home communion ministry where LLMs take communion out into the community.

I don't think in my church that there is any Magic assiciated with the bread and wine, so there is no pastoral advantage of having clergy do the consecration. It is just a matter of church obedience.

I will say that it is unusual to have permanent deacons in the C of E. Deacons are almost exclusively first year curates.

 

[Liberasit]

This seems like a pretty compelling argument against Lay Presidency On The Eucharist: Why We Need a Presbyter at the Altar | The Conciliar Anglican

I hate clicking on these things. Can you give a gist?