Law or Grace?

[ace of hearts]

Don't you know you were a barbarian before the Law regulated you?

Are you trying to say all barbarians lied, stole, murdered, committed adultery and didn't know at least some right from wrong? Based on what? When I was a child a leather belt still regulated children.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. Then, However, Paul writes this:...

We are saved by both "God's Grace through Faith" + "Works of Faith" (obedience to the commands of Jesus and His followers in the New Testament and not obedience to the Old Testament Law of Moses - contractually speaking); For the Old Law is no more. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Paul referred to the "works of the Law" as the Torah; And he did not refer to them as the commandments of Jesus Christ and His followers. "Works of Faith" as mentioned in the Bible was never in reference to the Torah or the Old ways but our obedience to the commandments of Jesus Christ and His followers.

Now, it is true, we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith. If we happen to stumble into a sin on rare occasion unintentionally, we go to God's grace (Jesus Christ) by confessing our sins to be forgiven (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). But that does not mean we do not need to do "works of faith." This is not the "works of the Law."

Click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses about how we also need works of faith in addition to God's saving grace.

Spoiler

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

Paul was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." We see at the Jerusalem council that this heresy was clearly addressed.

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
​

We see even Paul allude to this heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism", as well.

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

Even in the Old Testament, a saint was saved by God's grace through faith (or belief first) of which is the point made in Romans 4. So those who were trying to deceive Christians to be circumcised FIRST to be saved were not even following the OT ways correctly. When the New Testament (or New Covenant, i.e. New Contract) went into effect with Christ's death, the Law had changed (Hebrews 7:12), but we are still saved by God's grace through faith + works of faith (but under a different covenant that includes a different set of laws to obey God). Paul was fighting against "Law Alone Salvationism" or "Works Alone Salvationism" (that did not include God's grace) in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5. Paul was not against the necessity of works of faith that follow after one is saved by God's grace. Romans 8:13 says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Before Paul became a Christian, Paul was a part of the false Pharisee religion that falsely regulated salvation into a system of "Works Alone" or "Law Alone" (that did not include God's grace).

For Jesus criticized the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

The Pharisees ignored mercy according to Jesus.

It is why Jesus gave us the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. The Pharisee was not willing to repent and cry out to God for the forgiveness of his own sin like the Tax Collector did. The Pharisee was all about "Works Alone" (with none of God's grace). It was the false religion at one time that distorted even the Old Covenant ways.

One of the most helpful videos for me in understanding this fact is this video here:

 

[SkyWriting]

Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. Then, However, Paul writes this:

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Now, I don’t know about you but it’s pretty clear here that Paul is talking about not being under some kind of law any more. He mentions Circumcision. He mentions all the feast days and things like that. And he clearly says that it’s “the book of the Law”. Which I believe is the Torah. I don’t understand. It’s all one big contradiction. Was he talking about the mosaic law and that the moral law is in full affect?

If not, Answer me this: If we are no longer required to observe the feast days, become circumcised, or kill animals for animal sacrifices, then what about everything else. He also says not to let anyone judge them on what they eat or drink or on the keeping of a sabbath day. That seems pretty straight forward. At least to me. Otherwise, no one will get to Heaven. The mosaic law has 613 laws in it that you would have to obey Perfectly. That is impossible. Especially now. I’m a working class kid and we barely have any income. I can’t exactly break down and burn my stove and all the silverwear because they have pork on them. Or tell my mom to go outside in the middle of winter when it’s her time of the month. But besides that, here’s the thing, it was even said the law was a shadow of things to come. And that we are no longer a tutor. But the really important thing is, Paul said that these people were trying to add the Torah to their false Gospel and that they would be cursed by God for it! Look, I’m not saying that we no longer are expected to obey the moral laws, all of which Jesus taught. I just want to know what to do. Thank you, God bless you!

Grace.

 

[EmSw]

Rank doesn't interest me. Status doesn't interest me me either. Relationships matter to me. My relationship with Jesus is what matters when it come to heaven. The rest of the issues take care of themselves. Please read Mat 20:20-28.Of course I know the commandments Jesus referred to in the discourse. Why is it you project on me I teach others to murder, lie, steal and commit adultery? Even Pharaoh knew it was wrong to take another man's wife to bed. The law you speak about hadn't been given yet and was never given to Egyptians.

Your whole issue is I don't keep the 4th commandment. You bring up the others which indicates the whole law to me. That lines up with what Paul and James say about all or nothing when it comes to the law. Do you not read what Paul says about the law in Romans and Galatians? Remember both are Scripture.

The truth of the matter is you don't keep the 4th commandment yourself. You do keep an amended version of it though. Who gave you or anyone else the right to alter the law?You've not a clue what this verse says. Jesus said -

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

You've no idea what the above verse says either.You don't know what the commandments of God are. You know what religion teaches. This is what the Bible says -

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Who do we abide in and Who abides in us?

Jn 15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.Why did this man leave sad? Didn't Jesus validate Ps 14:3? You also don't keep the famous 10 found in Exodus. We can discuss this if you want.I'm a mature Christian that has fully shucked religion and its teachings. You can't gain or maintain salvation by following rules as Rom 4 shows. If you're really interested in regulating behavior I can show you how to do that without trying to keep a set of rules.

How do you abide in the vine without keeping His commandments? Did you put yourself there?

Without keeping His rules, your behavior is only in the flesh.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. Then, However, Paul writes this:

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Now, I don’t know about you but it’s pretty clear here that Paul is talking about not being under some kind of law any more. He mentions Circumcision. He mentions all the feast days and things like that. And he clearly says that it’s “the book of the Law”. Which I believe is the Torah. I don’t understand. It’s all one big contradiction. Was he talking about the mosaic law and that the moral law is in full affect?

If not, Answer me this: If we are no longer required to observe the feast days, become circumcised, or kill animals for animal sacrifices, then what about everything else. He also says not to let anyone judge them on what they eat or drink or on the keeping of a sabbath day. That seems pretty straight forward. At least to me. Otherwise, no one will get to Heaven. The mosaic law has 613 laws in it that you would have to obey Perfectly. That is impossible. Especially now. I’m a working class kid and we barely have any income. I can’t exactly break down and burn my stove and all the silverwear because they have pork on them. Or tell my mom to go outside in the middle of winter when it’s her time of the month. But besides that, here’s the thing, it was even said the law was a shadow of things to come. And that we are no longer a tutor. But the really important thing is, Paul said that these people were trying to add the Torah to their false Gospel and that they would be cursed by God for it! Look, I’m not saying that we no longer are expected to obey the moral laws, all of which Jesus taught. I just want to know what to do. Thank you, God bless you!

Salvation is in both Grace + Law (But this would be New Testament Commands and not the Old Testament Commands).

We are first saved by God's grace then works of faith follow as a part of the salvation process.

Grace through faith = The Process of Justification.
Works of faith = The Process of Sanctification.

We are saved initially and ultimately by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), but we also need to obey the commands of Jesus and His followers, too. For there are essential commands that deal with our salvation (See Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, etc.).

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says two things are a part of salvation:

(a) A belief in the truth and
(b) Sanctification​

Jesus gets the glory in both Justification and Sanctification, because the Lord is he One who does the good work in you (See John 15:5).

 

[Righttruth]

Are you trying to say all barbarians lied, stole, murdered, committed adultery and didn't know at least some right from wrong? Based on what? When I was a child a leather belt still regulated children.

I am speaking of times before leather belt was used against children. What made Cain to murder Abel?

 

[visionary]