Law or Grace?

ml5363

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So, we are saved so we can then keep all 613 laws? Oscarr? Or are you talking about the laws that Christ created? I guess I’ll have to read more. So many different people say so many different things.

No Christ died for our sins and as someone said earlier we can not keep all those laws..not even the 10 commandments..thus we needed a saviour..

The mosiac law was fulfilled when Christ died and rose again...

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be holy and follow 10 commandments...just gives us faith to keep going day by day knowing Christ did it all for us and the cross...that is all we need..our precious saviour..

Blessings and peace
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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No Christ died for our sins and as someone said earlier we can not keep all those laws..not even the 10 commandments..thus we needed a saviour..

The mosiac law was fulfilled when Christ died and rose again...

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be holy and follow 10 commandments...just gives us faith to keep going day by day knowing Christ did it all for us and the cross...that is all we need..our precious saviour..

Blessings and peace
The Mosaic Law was the foundation of the Old Covenant, but the covenant was broken through the failure of the people to keep it. Therefore, although the Law in itself was good and still is, because of the broken covenant, it has become inactive and unable to achieve righteousness for anyone who tries to follow it.

And if a person follows the Law without fault from when he decides to do it, there is no provision under the Law for covering past sins, so even if a person follows the Law perfectly, he is still condemned because of his past sins.

But the New Covenant is not based on the ten commandments at all. It is based on Christ, who successfully followed the ten commandments for us. Then when He died on the cross, he was punished not because of any sin that He committed, but because of our failure to follow the ten commandments. Because He was punished instead of us, we are totally set free from any requirement to follow the ten commandments now or in the future. Also, all our past failures are wiped out as well.

So, we are totally saved and made righteous through Christ, because He took all our sinfulness on Himself. It is not just past sins, but the whole principle of sinfulness that was in us. He replaced it with a new heart and spirit, and filled us with the Holy Spirit, making us totally acceptable to God, a member of His family, blessed with all spiritual blessings, seated with Christ at the right hand of God.

Paul said that he wanted to follow the law of God in his heart, but there was another law in his body (flesh) that made him do things he didn't want to do. That is the mark of a converted Christian. Paul's answer was that by having faith in Christ, the spirit of life in Christ, set him free from the law of sin and death.

John has made provision for us in 1 John 1:9. When we lose the battle with the flesh, all we have to do is to talk to God about it, agree with Him that what we did was sin, and we are totally forgiven and cleansed, and God has totally forgotten the sin. This means that when we keep short accounts with God and talk to him every time we fall in the flesh, all our past sins right up to that point are totally forgotten, and we emerge totally clean as an angel in heaven.

And it doesn't matter if we have to confess the same sin seventy times seven, because the grace and forgiveness of God is infinite. Even when we sin willfully, when we confess that we sinned through an act of our will, we are still forgiven and cleansed in the same way. Because sin is sin, and God makes no distinction between "big" sins and "little" sins. It is all the same to Him, therefore His grace, mercy and forgiveness is the same as well.

If only church members would not so underestimate the grace of God when seeing other people sinning. Then they would stop peddling judgment and condemnation, but be true representatives of Jesus, showing love, compassion and grace toward even the worst sinners they encounter in their churches.

What drives good people away from churches is the self-righteous judging, "Holier than thou" hypocrites who try to cast stones at those they think deserve to be stoned for sin, when they have just as badly sinned themselves!
 
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Soyeong

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Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing.

Hello,

God's Law straightforwardly does what it was given to do and does not do what is was not given to do, so we are not justified or made righteous by obeying it primarily because it was never given for that purpose in the first place. So when we agree with that we are justified by faith apart from the Law, the issue become what then is the correct purpose of obeying Law? In order to avoid the conclusion that we therefore don't need to obey the Law, Paul said in Romans 3:31 that our faith does not abolish the Law, but rather our faith upholds it.

The Law was given as instructions for how to do what is righteous, not as instructions for how to become righteous. For example, the Law reveals that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the case. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so we are not saved by our obedience, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are saved expresses itself as obedience.

When we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God imputes His righteousness to us and declares us to be righteous, He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. In other words, the reason that we have received the righteousness of God is not in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our obedience. So the reason why we should do what is righteous is not in order to become righteous, because we have been declared righteous

Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven.

"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to obeying the Law as it should be obeyed, and refers to something countless people have done, not to something unique to Christ. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret it in the same way as fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, namely obeying it as it should be, not as doing away with it. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it.

Then, However, Paul writes this:

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

God did not bring the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to His Law, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1) and God's Law is a law of freedom (Psalm 119:45), while it is sin in transgression of God's Law that puts us in bondage (John 8:34).

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent from their sins and turn back to obedience to His Law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that message, so it wouldn't make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:4 as Paul warning us against doing that and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow him. Furthermore, in Psalm 119:29, did David want God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to fall from grace? In Romans 1:5, have we received grace in order to bring about our fall from grace? In Titus 2:11-14, does our salvation involve being trained by grace to fall from grace? No, what Paul was speaking against in Galatians were man-made works of the law, not against God's Law. Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, so he should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what He has commanded.

Now, I don’t know about you but it’s pretty clear here that Paul is talking about not being under some kind of law any more. He mentions Circumcision. He mentions all the feast days and things like that. And he clearly says that it’s “the book of the Law”. Which I believe is the Torah. I don’t understand. It’s all one big contradiction.

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said faith is one of the weightier matters of God's Law and obedience to God's instructions is straightforwardly about trusting Him to guide us in how to rightly live, so God's Law is of faith. In Leviticus 18:5, Deuteronomy 30:15-16, Galatians 3:12, Romans 10:5, and Matthew 19:17, the one who obeys God's Law will obtain life by it, which would not be the case if God's Law was not of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's Law, so again it is of faith. So in Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was speaking about works of the law, which are not of faith, and was contrasting them with the Book of the Law, which is of faith.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved. However, God's Law does not require all Gentiles to become circumsized and the purpose that it requires all Jews to become circumcised was not in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose that God commanded it, which was in fact contrary to His purposes. So the Jerusalem Council upheld God's Law by correctly ruling that it does not contain that requirement, and a ruling against requiring Gentiles to do something that God never commanded should not be understood as a ruling against requiring Gentiles to obey what God has commanded.

Was he talking about the mosaic law and that the moral law is in full affect?

The category of moral laws implies that all other laws are in a category of law that are moral to disobey, but there are no examples of it being moral to disobey God in the Bible. Rather, it is always immoral and sinful to disobey any of God's laws.

If not, Answer me this: If we are no longer required to observe the feast days, become circumcised, or kill animals for animal sacrifices, then what about everything else. He also says not to let anyone judge them on what they eat or drink or on the keeping of a sabbath day.

In Colossian 2:16-23, they were keeping God's holy days in obedience to His commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by those teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was writing to encourage them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

That seems pretty straight forward. At least to me. Otherwise, no one will get to Heaven. The mosaic law has 613 laws in it that you would have to obey Perfectly. That is impossible. Especially now. I’m a working class kid and we barely have any income. I can’t exactly break down and burn my stove and all the silverwear because they have pork on them. Or tell my mom to go outside in the middle of winter when it’s her time of the month.

The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what to do when the people sinned, so perfect obedience was never the requirement. If we needed perfect obedience, then there would be no point in repentance because it would already be too late, so the fact that repentance has value means that obedience that is less than perfect has value. The consistent message of the prophets up to and including Jesus was to repent from our sins, so repentance has always been key. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His Law was not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing, while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it is presented as a choice and as a possibility, not as impossible standard of perfection.

But besides that, here’s the thing, it was even said the law was a shadow of things to come.

The OT is full of important foreshadows that teaching us about God and His plan of redemption. The light of Christ brings full substance to the foreshadows so that we can fully see what God was teaching us through them, which make them all the more important to continue to do in remembrance of Christ. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of Him being our Passover Lamb, but instead of concluding that we no longer need to bother keeping Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast.

And that we are no longer a tutor.

Having no more need for a tutor is not at all the same as having no more need to live by what they taught you. Someone who disregarded everything their tutor taught them after they left would be completely missing the whole point of a tutor. Now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to walk in God's ways in obedience to His Law in accordance with what he taught by word and by example.

But the really important thing is, Paul said that these people were trying to add the Torah to their false Gospel and that they would be cursed by God for it! Look, I’m not saying that we no longer are expected to obey the moral laws, all of which Jesus taught. I just want to know what to do. Thank you, God bless you!

Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin was, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ. In Romans 15:4, Paul referred to OT Scripture as being written for our instruction and in Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus in teaching repentance from our sins.
 
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Soyeong

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I think Romans lays it out most clearly. You take for example Rom 4

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

So the idea of being justified by faith apart from works is not simply referring to certain ceremonial laws, but rather to the generic concept of not qualifying for justification based upon doing things, but simply trusting in Christ alone to save you. And this is supported in many places such as

Eph 2:8,9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Contrasting justification by works versus justification by faith Paul writes in Romans 10

When we make the point point that the purpose of doing good works in not in order to become saved, it becomes an issue of what then is the purpose of doing good works, so
Ephesians 2:8-9 are an incomplete thought without verses 10 where we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Justification by works)
6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’" (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 "or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
12 ¶ For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
(Justification by faith apart from works)

In Romans 10:5-8, it would not make sense to interpret Paul as contrasting what Moses said in Deuteronomy 30:15-16 with what Moses said in Deuteronomy 30:11-14, so verse 6 should start with a "moreover" rather than a "but". In Leviticus 18:5, Deuteronomy 30:15-16, Galatians 3:12, Romans 10:5, and Matthew 19:17, the one who obeys God's Law will obtain life by it, which would not be true if God's Law were not of faith. However, Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so it is of faith and verse 5 is therefore speaking about justification by faith. In Romans 3:21-22, Paul said that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God is by faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the case. So in Romans 10:6-8, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30:11-14 in regard to our faith saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us to obey and in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord.


Jesus also affirms that one's justification is finalized upon coming to faith.

John 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Either faith is implied in Matthew 19:17 as one of the weightier matters of the Law, or Jesus was speaking about justification by works.
 
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ace of hearts

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Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. Then, However, Paul writes this:

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Now, I don’t know about you but it’s pretty clear here that Paul is talking about not being under some kind of law any more. He mentions Circumcision. He mentions all the feast days and things like that. And he clearly says that it’s “the book of the Law”. Which I believe is the Torah. I don’t understand. It’s all one big contradiction. Was he talking about the mosaic law and that the moral law is in full affect?

If not, Answer me this: If we are no longer required to observe the feast days, become circumcised, or kill animals for animal sacrifices, then what about everything else. He also says not to let anyone judge them on what they eat or drink or on the keeping of a sabbath day. That seems pretty straight forward. At least to me. Otherwise, no one will get to Heaven. The mosaic law has 613 laws in it that you would have to obey Perfectly. That is impossible. Especially now. I’m a working class kid and we barely have any income. I can’t exactly break down and burn my stove and all the silverwear because they have pork on them. Or tell my mom to go outside in the middle of winter when it’s her time of the month. But besides that, here’s the thing, it was even said the law was a shadow of things to come. And that we are no longer a tutor. But the really important thing is, Paul said that these people were trying to add the Torah to their false Gospel and that they would be cursed by God for it! Look, I’m not saying that we no longer are expected to obey the moral laws, all of which Jesus taught. I just want to know what to do. Thank you, God bless you!
For me I had to totally dump the religious aspect from my life. That doesn't mean I don't love God (whole Trinity) and no longer worship Him (whole Trinity). As long as you continue attending religious activity you'll have a continual battle with conflicting concepts binding you to some partial law and grace mixture. The truth is they don't mix.
 
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Butch5

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Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. Then, However, Paul writes this:

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Now, I don’t know about you but it’s pretty clear here that Paul is talking about not being under some kind of law any more. He mentions Circumcision. He mentions all the feast days and things like that. And he clearly says that it’s “the book of the Law”. Which I believe is the Torah. I don’t understand. It’s all one big contradiction. Was he talking about the mosaic law and that the moral law is in full affect?

If not, Answer me this: If we are no longer required to observe the feast days, become circumcised, or kill animals for animal sacrifices, then what about everything else. He also says not to let anyone judge them on what they eat or drink or on the keeping of a sabbath day. That seems pretty straight forward. At least to me. Otherwise, no one will get to Heaven. The mosaic law has 613 laws in it that you would have to obey Perfectly. That is impossible. Especially now. I’m a working class kid and we barely have any income. I can’t exactly break down and burn my stove and all the silverwear because they have pork on them. Or tell my mom to go outside in the middle of winter when it’s her time of the month. But besides that, here’s the thing, it was even said the law was a shadow of things to come. And that we are no longer a tutor. But the really important thing is, Paul said that these people were trying to add the Torah to their false Gospel and that they would be cursed by God for it! Look, I’m not saying that we no longer are expected to obey the moral laws, all of which Jesus taught. I just want to know what to do. Thank you, God bless you!

The backdrop to a lot of what you've posted is that there were some Jewish believers from Jerusalme that were going behind Paul telling his converts that in addition to having faith they also needed to keep the Law of Moses. When Paul says no works, he means they don't have to keep the Law of Moses. Read chapter 15 of Acts, this is where Paul goes to the other apostles to meet with the other apostles about whether or not the Gentiles need to keep the Law of Moses. The consensus is no, they don't.

As Christians we are commanded to have high moral standards. In Paul's letters he said that certain activities, such as drunkeness, adultery, lying, etc. will bar one from the Kingdom of God
 
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Righttruth

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Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. Then, However, Paul writes this:

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Now, I don’t know about you but it’s pretty clear here that Paul is talking about not being under some kind of law any more. He mentions Circumcision. He mentions all the feast days and things like that. And he clearly says that it’s “the book of the Law”. Which I believe is the Torah. I don’t understand. It’s all one big contradiction. Was he talking about the mosaic law and that the moral law is in full affect?

If not, Answer me this: If we are no longer required to observe the feast days, become circumcised, or kill animals for animal sacrifices, then what about everything else. He also says not to let anyone judge them on what they eat or drink or on the keeping of a sabbath day. That seems pretty straight forward. At least to me. Otherwise, no one will get to Heaven. The mosaic law has 613 laws in it that you would have to obey Perfectly. That is impossible. Especially now. I’m a working class kid and we barely have any income. I can’t exactly break down and burn my stove and all the silverwear because they have pork on them. Or tell my mom to go outside in the middle of winter when it’s her time of the month. But besides that, here’s the thing, it was even said the law was a shadow of things to come. And that we are no longer a tutor. But the really important thing is, Paul said that these people were trying to add the Torah to their false Gospel and that they would be cursed by God for it! Look, I’m not saying that we no longer are expected to obey the moral laws, all of which Jesus taught. I just want to know what to do. Thank you, God bless you!
Jesus came to fulfill the Law to put an end to all animal sacrifices with His supreme sacrifice. Now it is fulfilling the Law spiritually with grace that goes with truth
 
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ace of hearts

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Jesus came to fulfill the Law to put an end to all animal sacrifices with His supreme sacrifice. Now it is fulfilling the Law spiritually with grace that goes with truth
No Jesus came to redeem mankind as promised even before the law - Gen 3:15. Jesus didn't come to end part of the law requirements.
 
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alv_c

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Hi everyone. So, I’m having some really hard times trying to figure out the Gospel. Now, In the Bible it says that we are Justifien by faith apart from works of the law. Then it says that the love of the Torah will grow cold. Then it saus in revelations that people who eat pigs flesh will be destroyed. But then it says that if we could become righteous by the law, then Christ died for nothing. Then it says that Christ fulfilled the law and did not abolish it. Then it says that if we teach even one thing that is contrary to the law, we will be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. Then, However, Paul writes this:

5 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Now, I don’t know about you but it’s pretty clear here that Paul is talking about not being under some kind of law any more. He mentions Circumcision. He mentions all the feast days and things like that. And he clearly says that it’s “the book of the Law”. Which I believe is the Torah. I don’t understand. It’s all one big contradiction. Was he talking about the mosaic law and that the moral law is in full affect?

If not, Answer me this: If we are no longer required to observe the feast days, become circumcised, or kill animals for animal sacrifices, then what about everything else. He also says not to let anyone judge them on what they eat or drink or on the keeping of a sabbath day. That seems pretty straight forward. At least to me. Otherwise, no one will get to Heaven. The mosaic law has 613 laws in it that you would have to obey Perfectly. That is impossible. Especially now. I’m a working class kid and we barely have any income. I can’t exactly break down and burn my stove and all the silverwear because they have pork on them. Or tell my mom to go outside in the middle of winter when it’s her time of the month. But besides that, here’s the thing, it was even said the law was a shadow of things to come. And that we are no longer a tutor. But the really important thing is, Paul said that these people were trying to add the Torah to their false Gospel and that they would be cursed by God for it! Look, I’m not saying that we no longer are expected to obey the moral laws, all of which Jesus taught. I just want to know what to do. Thank you, God bless you!

Favor is not granted because of obedience to the Torah not because obedience to the Torah is not necessary, but because we have all broken the Torah of God, which already curses us, which is why favor is attained through belief, yet after believing, it is then necessary to obey Torah, otherwise belief is null, and all we are left with is a curse, for continuing to remain in disobedience even though we do believe. So in summary, belief and also obedience to the Torah is required, while also understanding why we are receiving favor, not because we deserve it, because all we deserve is death according to the Torah, but because God is gracious and merciful.
 
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ace of hearts

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Favor is not granted because of obedience to the Torah not because obedience to the Torah is not necessary, but because we have all broken the Torah of God, which already curses us, which is why favor is attained through belief, yet after believing, it is then necessary to obey Torah, otherwise belief is null, and all we are left with is a curse, for continuing to remain in disobedience even though we do believe. So in summary, belief and also obedience to the Torah is required, while also understanding why we are receiving favor, not because we deserve it, because all we deserve is death according to the Torah, but because God is gracious and merciful.
That isn't what the NT says.
 
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EmSw

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Say anything you like. The NT clearly reveals the law doesn't apply in any sense.

Matthew 5:19
Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Oh ye that don't believe the Lord.
 
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ace of hearts

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Matthew 5:19
Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Oh ye that don't believe the Lord.
Are you really that concerned about your position in heaven?

Now I really want to know what commandments are being talked about because Jesus mentions a commandment and says - "but I say..." Surely Jesus isn't called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
 
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EmSw

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Are you really that concerned about your position in heaven?

Now I really want to know what commandments are being talked about because Jesus mentions a commandment and says - "but I say..." Surely Jesus isn't called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

The NT does does reveal the law applies. Why aren't you concerned about your position in Heaven?

Since it seems you do not know the commandments Jesus mentioned, I understand why you don't want to follow them. How can you follow what you don't know? 'But I say', if the truth of the Word escapes you so easily, how is it you think the truth is in you?

1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Do you not know what matters?

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

How will you enter life without keeping the commandments?

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

If you are new to knowing Jesus, I understand your lack of knowledge of life. However, if you have been in the faith for a while, you have no excuse for doubting the Word.
 
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ace of hearts

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So in that case you can dishonor your parents, commit adultery, usurp property and murder your neighbor!
So if I honor my parents I'm doing so because of the law? Really? Then you must be saying all unregenerate people are keeping the law in honoring their parents. Same goes for the rest of your list.
 
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ace of hearts

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The NT does does reveal the law applies. Why aren't you concerned about your position in Heaven?
Rank doesn't interest me. Status doesn't interest me me either. Relationships matter to me. My relationship with Jesus is what matters when it come to heaven. The rest of the issues take care of themselves. Please read Mat 20:20-28.
Since it seems you do not know the commandments Jesus mentioned, I understand why you don't want to follow them. How can you follow what you don't know? 'But I say', if the truth of the Word escapes you so easily, how is it you think the truth is in you?
Of course I know the commandments Jesus referred to in the discourse. Why is it you project on me I teach others to murder, lie, steal and commit adultery? Even Pharaoh knew it was wrong to take another man's wife to bed. The law you speak about hadn't been given yet and was never given to Egyptians.

Your whole issue is I don't keep the 4th commandment. You bring up the others which indicates the whole law to me. That lines up with what Paul and James say about all or nothing when it comes to the law. Do you not read what Paul says about the law in Romans and Galatians? Remember both are Scripture.

The truth of the matter is you don't keep the 4th commandment yourself. You do keep an amended version of it though. Who gave you or anyone else the right to alter the law?
1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
You've not a clue what this verse says. Jesus said -

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

You've no idea what the above verse says either.
Do you not know what matters?

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
You don't know what the commandments of God are. You know what religion teaches. This is what the Bible says -

1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Who do we abide in and Who abides in us?

Jn 15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
How will you enter life without keeping the commandments?

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Why did this man leave sad? Didn't Jesus validate Ps 14:3? You also don't keep the famous 10 found in Exodus. We can discuss this if you want.
If you are new to knowing Jesus, I understand your lack of knowledge of life. However, if you have been in the faith for a while, you have no excuse for doubting the Word.
I'm a mature Christian that has fully shucked religion and its teachings. You can't gain or maintain salvation by following rules as Rom 4 shows. If you're really interested in regulating behavior I can show you how to do that without trying to keep a set of rules.
 
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Righttruth

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So if I honor my parents I'm doing so because of the law? Really? Then you must be saying all unregenerate people are keeping the law in honoring their parents. Same goes for the rest of your list.
Don't you know you were a barbarian before the Law regulated you?
 
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