Laundry list for Protestants

[JCrawf]

Again you'll have to be a bit more specific. Scriptura alone forms the only infallible rule of faith in that it is what doctrine should be based upon - history is not infallible nor a rule of faith but there's nothing wrong with it.

But the challenge is to prove such beliefs from the Bible alone. If you're not up to the challenge, then you don't have to respond.

So you are going to allow sola scriptura as Protestants define it? That's wonderful, but then you can't claim that we are not correctly using sola scriptura when we are within the boundries we have set.

But the following question is still posed:

Why don't Protestants have an easily definable and common set of doctrine?

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[CCWoody]

Sorry, but St. Paul does not state anything about faith alone in the scripture.

[bible]Romans 3:28[/bible]

[bible]Romans 4:1-5[/bible]

Clearly, Paul is among those who count works worthless toward obtaining righteousness with God.

Paul and the Reformers stand as one. ~ CORAM DEO
God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY.~ Simul Iustus Et Peccator

We are the great Reformation of God.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

*Mod Hat On*

Closed for reiew

*Mod Hat Off*

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

*Mod Hat On*

Thread reopened. Please post with charity and grace. Remember that you are talking to your brothers and sisters in Christ.

*Mod Hat Off*

 

[Trento]

Since nobody seems to have noticed my previous post on the wonderful doctrine of Sola Fide, that great doctrine restored by the Reformation, I'll proceed with some more verses....

[bible]Romans 9:30-33[/bible]

Notice, again, Paul's, excellent use of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura in establishing his Sola Fide point. I believe this completes my journey down the "Roman" road as the book of Romans is oft called on verses from the top of my head.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist​

Woody.​

Alistair McGrath, a foremost "Reformed" Protestant scholar admits: In His work Justification by Faith Alone:
Affirming the Doctrine by Which The Church and the Individual Stands or Falls

p. 186 "The essential feature of the Reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between justification and regeneration. Although it must be emphasized that this distinction is purely notional, in that it is impossible to separate the two within the context of the ordo sautis, THE ESSENTIAL POINT IS THAT A NOTIONAL DISTINCTION IS MADE WHERE NONE HAD BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED BEFORE IN THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE. A FUNDAMENTAL DISCONTINUITY WAS INTRODUCED INTO THE WESTERN THEOLOGICAL TRADITION WHERE NONE HAD EVER EXISTED, OR EVER BEEN CONTEMPLATED BEFORE. The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification - as opposed to its mode - must be regarded as a genuine theological novum."
p. 182 " Although Luther regarded justification as an essentially unitary process, he nevertheless introduced a decisive break with the western theological tradition as a whole by insisting that, through his justification, man is intrinsically sinful yet extrinsically righteous."


For 15 CENTURIES NO major Church Father

BELIEVED IN SOLA FIDE". Therefore, according to your theory, Christ set up a church where no one could be saved for 15 centuries. There was a total apostasy on the issue of salvation from the very beginning and this after Jesus's promises---

"I am with you ALL days, even until the end of the world."
Matthew 28:20

"...and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

"...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18


"...a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church, BEING HIMSELF SAVIOR OF THE BODY."
Ephesians 5:23
Saint Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is the Savior of His Church here.

I will believe Jesus promises not 16th Century theological traditions.

 

[Bulldog]

Alistair McGrath, a foremost "Reformed" Protestant scholar admits: In His work Justification by Faith Alone:
Affirming the Doctrine by Which The Church and the Individual Stands or Falls

p. 186 "The essential feature of the Reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between justification and regeneration. Although it must be emphasized that this distinction is purely notional, in that it is impossible to separate the two within the context of the ordo sautis, THE ESSENTIAL POINT IS THAT A NOTIONAL DISTINCTION IS MADE WHERE NONE HAD BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED BEFORE IN THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE. A FUNDAMENTAL DISCONTINUITY WAS INTRODUCED INTO THE WESTERN THEOLOGICAL TRADITION WHERE NONE HAD EVER EXISTED, OR EVER BEEN CONTEMPLATED BEFORE. The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification - as opposed to its mode - must be regarded as a genuine theological novum."
p. 182 " Although Luther regarded justification as an essentially unitary process, he nevertheless introduced a decisive break with the western theological tradition as a whole by insisting that, through his justification, man is intrinsically sinful yet extrinsically righteous."


For 15 CENTURIES NO major Church Father

BELIEVED IN SOLA FIDE". Therefore, according to your theory, Christ set up a church where no one could be saved for 15 centuries. There was a total apostasy on the issue of salvation from the very beginning and this after Jesus's promises---

"I am with you ALL days, even until the end of the world."
Matthew 28:20

"...and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it."
Matthew 16:18

"...and I will ask the Father and He will give you another Advocate to dwell with you forever, the Spirit of Truth..."
John 14:16-17

"I will not leave you orphans."
John 14:18


"...a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church, BEING HIMSELF SAVIOR OF THE BODY."
Ephesians 5:23
Saint Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is the Savior of His Church here.

I will believe Jesus promises not 16th Century theological traditions.

This disccusion was supposed to regard the scripture validity of sola fide. Are you willing to discuss on that level?

 

[Bulldog]

But the challenge is to prove such beliefs from the Bible alone. If you're not up to the challenge, then you don't have to respond.

Okay...

But the following question is still posed:

Why don't Protestants have an easily definable and common set of doctrine?

There are some basics - the solas and orthodox creeds are a nice place to start. (I imagine you might use a borad definition of Protestantism for convenience, but i believe a historical definition is best) Beyond that, it is because of the level of dissent. You can argue that this dissent is because Protestants have no infallible church - this may have some truth, but to work it must assume that an infallible church actually exists. Also, there is a higher level of dissent in the Roman Catholic church (yes, on faith and morals) than some would like to admit. In addition, as I pointed out on another thread, it's not a great comparison to compare a single church to multiple ones. It's kinda like me asking "why do non-Protestants not have a common set of doctrine."

 

[CCWoody]

Therefore, according to your theory, Christ set up a church where no one could be saved for 15 centuries. There was a total apostasy on the issue of salvation from the very beginning...

According to your efforts in the field to grow the grazing grass, cut it, dry it, stuff it into farmer clothes with a hat and a pipe, and hang it on a stick, then, perhaps. Is it your position that there was not a single soul in all of the visible church that had faith to be justified apart from works?

According to actual confessions of Calvinism, No.

The Belgic Confession, Article XXVII: "We believe and profess one catholic or universal Church...This Church has been from the beginning of the world, and will be to the end thereof..."

Of course, Alistair McGrath might just be wrong. I think Paul is a pretty big church Father. and Paul says the following:

[bible]Romans 3:28[/bible]

[bible]Romans 4:1-5[/bible]

Clearly, Paul is among those who count works worthless toward obtaining righteousness with God.

Paul and the Reformers stand as one. ~ CORAM DEO
God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY.~ Simul Iustus Et Peccator

We are the great Reformation of God.


Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[SpoiltMonk]

Context is important Woody.

When Paul says, "The Works of the Law" he is talking about ritual activities related to the Old Covenant. Usually, he is referring specifically to circumcision but sometimes to the whole sacrificial temple system.

Read Romans and, indeed, the whole Pauline corpus some time with this assumption rather than that he was talking about any and all "good works".

I think you will see then that no gymnastics are necessary when you read in Romans 2:6-10

For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

 

[Bulldog]

Context is important Woody.

When Paul says, "The Works of the Law" he is talking about ritual activities related to the Old Covenant. Usually, he is referring specifically to circumcision but sometimes to the whole sacrificial temple system.

Read Romans and, indeed, the whole Pauline corpus some time with this assumption rather than that he was talking about any and all "good works".

I think you will see then that no gymnastics are necessary when you read in Romans 2:6-10

And this is only what is in reference?

 

[CCWoody]

Context is important Woody.

When Paul says, "The Works of the Law" he is talking about ritual activities related to the Old Covenant. Usually, he is referring specifically to circumcision but sometimes to the whole sacrificial temple system.

Indeed, context is important.

Please cite the relevant Scriptures and "Works of the Law" which would have been in existance during Abraham's day (note added: I'm specifically referring to WHEN it was that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness).

[bible]Romans 4:1-5[/bible]

Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Clearly, Paul is among those who count works worthless toward obtaining righteousness with God.

Abraham believed ~ coram deo
Abraham obeyed ~ coram hominibus

God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY.~ Simul Iustus Et Peccator
Paul and the Reformers stand as one.
We are the great Reformation of God.

I think you will see then that no gymnastics are necessary when you read in Romans 2:6-10

Ineed, no mental gymnastics are required. As Paul clearly affirms in the context of those words, the hearers of the Law are not justified, but the doers of the Law. We affirm (Rom 3:23) that all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. Therefore, we conclude that man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.

[bible]James 2:10[/bible]

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing where our righteousness coram deo comes by faith plus works. It seems to be strangly absent from all of these verses I've presented.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[vrunca]

I'm sorry, whats the accronim for TULIP stand for ?

Did I somehow miss the answer to this? If so, could someone please answer it again? Thank you.

 

[CCWoody]

Give me a "T" ~ Total Depravity
Give me a "U" ~ Unconditional Election
Give me a "L" ~ Limited Atonement
Give me a "I" ~ Irresistible Grace
Give me a "P" ~ Preservation & Perserverance of the saints.

What's that spell: "TULIP"

And the crowd goes wild.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[vrunca]

Give me a "T" ~ Total Depravity
Give me a "U" ~ Unconditional Election
Give me a "L" ~ Limited Atonement
Give me a "I" ~ Irresistible Grace
Give me a "P" ~ Preservation & Perserverance of the saints.

Thank you for your answer and with such enthusiasm!!! Could you just clarify what each one means, just so I am not assuming meanings and that way we are on the same page. Thanks for your help!!

 

[WarriorAngel]

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thank you for your answer and with such enthusiasm!!! Could you just clarify what each one means, just so I am not assuming meanings and that way we are on the same page. Thanks for your help!!

Their way of believing in predestination.

 

[Splayd]

TULIP is not a "Protestant" doctrine as such, but more like Calvinist shorthand. Many Protestants would accept the TUIP bits but baulk at L.

 

[vrunca]

Since it is more of a Calvinist belief system, would one of the nice Calvanists mind breaking it down for me to understand it better? like for Total Depravity...Depravity from what exactly? And so on right down the line....I just want to be sure that I understand what you mean by this, instead of deciding what you mean on my own. Thanks a lot for your help!!

 

[Trento]

Indeed, context is important.

Please cite the relevant Scriptures and "Works of the Law" which would have been in existance during Abraham's day (note added: I'm specifically referring to WHEN it was that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness).

[bible]Romans 4:1-5[/bible]

Abraham believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Clearly, Paul is among those who count works worthless toward obtaining righteousness with God.

Abraham believed ~ coram deo
Abraham obeyed ~ coram hominibus

God JUSTIFIES the UNGODLY.~ Simul Iustus Et Peccator
Paul and the Reformers stand as one.
We are the great Reformation of God.


Ineed, no mental gymnastics are required. As Paul clearly affirms in the context of those words, the hearers of the Law are not justified, but the doers of the Law. We affirm (Rom 3:23) that all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. Therefore, we conclude that man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.

[bible]James 2:10[/bible]

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing where our righteousness coram deo comes by faith plus works. It seems to be strangly absent from all of these verses I've presented.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist​

Woody.​

I have seen many examples of "interpretations" of Scripture being coloured by predetermined concepts. Let me give an example.

Scripture says we must believe and be Baptised to be saved (Mk16:16) We read where St Paul was Baptised well after embracing the Faith "for the forgivenmess of his sins" (Acts 22:16). The necessity to be born of water and the Spirit to enter Heaven - is obviously Christian Baptism as there are so many Scriptural parallels but more importantly there is a constancy / consistency during the first few centuries across the various centres of Christianity to make certain this was the intent and teaching of the writer.

Yet we find people saying Baptism is unnecessary - why? - because we are saved by faith alone is the answer - so the presumed doctrine overwhelms Scripture to the point that much of it is then dismissed, historical Apostolic teaching is dismissed. A whole structure is built on a premise - the premise is said to be "suggested" in Scripture yet Scripture plainly records that "you cannot be saved by Faith alone". Of course this is vandalised to again support the original premise - a premise that is absent from Christianity for the first 1500yrs.

All this stuff is made possible by validating personal opinion above Apostolic teaching. With respect I have come across people who play Scripture like a violin - but rarely in tune with others.

Whilst it is true that Catholicism views Scripture with Catholic coloured glasses this may be justified as these glasses existed before the NT Scriptures were written let alone put together. The Catholic Faith was born from the same community from where Scripture was written, so shares the same perspective. The history is entwined so much as it actually constructed the NT.If Scripture lends itself to 5 plausible understandings of salvation at least 4 are wrong and cannot lead one to Heaven. If one rejects all external authority or reference it is "the blind leading the blind and both end up in the pit." It also excludes any reference benchmark of truth such as Apostolic teaching so that if one stumbles across some truth there is no way of being sure - except what seems more plausible or attractive - and you end up as a sincere JW or SDA or one of a hundreds of others.
The point is that the "Official Teachings" of Catholicism have always been definite, available and constant. If people reject certain dictrines they cannot claim to be of the "Catholic Faith" - but casual sometime believers and the Church would ask that they examine the teachings in the hope that an understanding may be reached for there proagation.
It is clear that we are saved by the action of Grace received through Faith (the only way we may relate to God)

We are washed – our sins are blotted out

We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit and the eternal life is within us

We have been regenerated, renewed - internally transformed

Being clean and sanctified we are justified.

(Titus 3:4) “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good.”:
The way this saving Grace works is defined clearly.
This Grace has made us a new creature – we are transformed no longer slaves to sin but now capable of virtue.

We are saved by being made intrinsically righteous, lead to obedience and good works.

(Titus 2:11) “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

But saving Grace may be in vain if we do not do good works or if we sin seriously and do not repent

Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.)

2 Corinthians 6:1
As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain.
How will we be judged?? – whether we believed or not? – that is a component but more important is how we used the Grace of salvation – did we allow God to do His work in us.

(Mat 25:32) “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Being made a child of God we are expected to act as such and not reject the Father.

Made new creatures lead to the path of righteousness we are not forced to stay there.

2 Peter 2:21-23 (
"It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."


What does Scripture

preach? - the reality is that it is a collection of personal testimonies written by Holy men under the inspirationof the Holy Spirit thus inerrant and sacred to the Church.

- Scriptuire does not preach - it is a written reflection/record of what Apostles and others preached during that time when the revelation ("once given the saints")that was Jesus was passed down embodied in the Church by the Apostles

-Scripture whilst it does contain some emphatic clear statements does not answer back and as a result it cannot correct false conclusions - not by itself and not alone, as measured against what the Apostles understood.
In the area of Salvation - we have those who promote OSAS yes, those who reject it, those who say we are saved if we speak tongues, those who promote faith alone and those who say it cannot be alone, those who say it is by works, those who say a faith working in love, those who promote by election alone - so what is one to believe if one accepts your criteria??? All claiming the same inspired authority.

to be continued

 

[Trento]

Accepting the necessity of good works as an expression of intrinsic virtue, making it an important component of salvation is only recognising the fact that sanctification and justification (never separated before Luther's Gospel), are both integral to salvation.
On every occasion where the criteria for our judgement concerning eternal destiny is spelt out in Scripture, there is without exception an emphasis on intrinsic active goodness. To ignore this is to ignore Scripture. Most Protestants agree that good work done in the state of Grace are meritorious as they are the sanctified works of Christ. It suprises me that you discount this work of Grace.
Most Protestant confessions of faith and please think what it claims - it claims when you get down to it that one is saved by appeasing the Law - indirectly nodoubt, not personally obeying it no doubt but it is salvation of the Law which Protestants have the hide of calling "grace" when it rejects salvation by our transformation under the impact of Grace - that washes, sanctifies and justifies, leading us to obedience and acts of virtuie.
By claiming trhe external appearance of Christ's righteousness which is said to "fulfill the Law. "perfect under the Law". One is seeking and presumed to achieve a similar result as though the individual was righteous under the Law. Catholics realise we are saved APART from the Law by being washed and internally transformed, sanctified by the Holy Spirit thus jsutified before God. If one has their sins blotted out, made clean, given a new heart as a new creature in Christ, incorporated into His Body as an adopted child of God sanctified by the Holy Spirit - who can deny that one is intrinsically righteous at that moment?
If one doies not feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc; then one goes off to Hell with the other goats ,making it necessary to have a Faith WORKING in love which St Paul advocates as the only thing needed. Catholics know all goodness comes from God so that good works as well as Faith come by Grace and are a response to Grace.
If one "goes back to their vomit" it means they had previously left it behind. If one goes back to the mud after being "washed" it means they had been "washed" - a nice try but you start with a false premise rather than addressing the Scripture on its merit.

(1John2: 29) “If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him”

(1 John 3: 7) “Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.”

Any goodness we have is the goodness of Christ and any "work" is His as we are members of His Body. When we are judged at death the work of Christ is gold.
There is no value in external perfection (imputed righteousness of Christ)that has appeased the Law, whereas Christ has made it clear that it is the inside of the cup that is of value
intrinsic goodness is all that counts and if it is the normal unsanctified efforts of a creature it is straw but if it is the sanctified work of Grace then it is gold. Jesus paid a ransom to make this possible. This business about satisfying the Law and misunderstanding of God's righteousness leaves me cold. The righteousness of Christ is based on love, mercy, justice, compassion - "goodness" and it was as a result of this that He did the Will of God as He is bonded by His own righteousness and thus obeyed the Law - not to appease it but to fulfill its essence love of God and neighbour. You cannot be declared by God as being righteous having the charity of Christ unless it is intrinsic as that is the nature of His righteousness - it is not an award of external perfection (that the Pharisees sought).
Imputation is legal fiction - what God declares happens. If He says let there be light - His word does not return empty. If Adam's sin is real sin not "empty imputation" then Christ's righteousness given to us is also real.
The Law continues to condemn (no longer the letter or the 611 works of the Deuteronomy Covenant)the curse of the Law was nailed to the Cross.

Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

So when you say "Do you mean to say by this phrase that we are do not stand condemned because of what the Law demands -- a perfect obedient righteousness? If your understanding of the Roman doctrine removes the Law from our condemnation, then it waters down God's justice. I would have thought that the passages above might enlighten the reality of the Gospel of Christ - we are no longer under the letter of the Law in a number of ways. Under the Law we had nothing but condemnation and it gave no support to resist failure, that there were no degrees of guilt as it was slavery to its letter which rendered people as slaves to sin.

Under Grace - no longer under the Law - those "in Christ" do not have to be perfect to the letter as now there are degrees of guilt.

(1John 5:16)If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Under Grace - the rule of the new covenant is love of God and neighbour. We had the covenant of the Law but now the covenant of Grace and to be faithful to this covenant we are to love but in contrast to that of the Law we are given support - we are infused with the Spirit of Christ - we are given His righteousness and that is not simply slavish perfect obedience to the Law but infinite love - greater love no man have...

Under Grace we are washed, we are sanctified, we are justified - so if we do fall to serious sin due to a lack of love we lose our state of sanctification given by Grace but may be restored by suitable repentence.

Theory somehow cannot see past the Law and calls salvation by appeasing it using supposed imputation "Grace" which exposes a terrible lack of understanding both of Grace and the Gospel. It even still doies not see past the letter of the Law and denies degrees of sin, guilt and punishment.

If our intrinsic righteousness is established by that imparted of Christ's then it is of great value - that is the gift (grace) that causes salvation - makes truning away from sin possible - transforms the heart - sanctified slaves to virtue.

The promise if that no one will take what is His from His hands - not as you claim that He will keep us no matter what. We have free will to continue to "walk in the Spirit" to eternal bliss or to "return to the flesh" to eternal damnation. Jesus makes salvation possible and that is called redemption, He offers all sufficient Grace to achieve this goal but true love (and justice) has to allow the freedom of rejection - God is bound by His own virtue - it is not a failure of God if we reject Him but an expression of virtue - think about it. - Would you lock up your wife, the person you most love in the world, knowing she could wander or prefer she stayed due to real love?? If God wants love of God and neighbour it has to be real.

So how does God save us?

Acts 20:32
"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


2 Thessalonians 2:13
< Stand Firm > But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.


1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

So how do we stuff it up?


(Exz. 18:24) "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

From intrinsic righteousness to death

(1Peter 4: 17) “For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"