Laundry list for Protestants

[a_ntv]

If we have a set list of Sacraments, does that not then limit God's real presence in the world?

If God can be present elsewhere, do we need a list of Sacraments?

No, the number of 7 is for easy teaching.

If you consider that baptism and confermation are simply different steps of the same sacrament, the number becames 6.
If you consider the three steps of ordination like three different sacraments, the number became 8
And the ones called 'sacramentals', like exorcism, are founded by Jesus and have the same theology of sacraments...so the number can increase.

The problem with evangelicals (not lutherans, to have my friend CJ happy) is that they do NOT have the same our believe in sacraments, not even in the two officially held: in fact, if the Faith is enough, what is the need of sacraments?
Evangelicals look only at the spirtitual part of men, not also to the material part of men.
And evangelicals reject the necessity of the Church in sacraments, bc the relationship with God shall be only personal and spiritual.

And about some sacrament, like ordination, there is a huge un-agreement even on the necessity and the effects.

(If Im wrong with above statments, be free to correct me, bc many time I confuse various protestant denominations)

 

[a_ntv]

Maybe something can happen on an individual level - like the kinds of official Lutheran/Catholic conversations that have begun; there's much of this beginning to happen. BUT, if some are coming to that table with the insistance of "I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I AM AND THEREFORE I AM; I'M INFALLIBLE AND THEREFORE UNACCOUNTABLE" then we're all just wasting our time



.

I can suggest a couple of attitudes for ecumenism:

1) do not attribute the responsability of missing ecumenism on the other denomination.

2) lissen and someting learn what the other denominations say about themself. In lots of posts we explained you that CC is working on the hermeneutic side, not on the normative side.

sorry my rant

 

[JCrawf]

As a Lutheran, I think it might help if you define Sacrament.

Well, considering that Lutherans do have a Catechism of sort, then I think it best to refer to what Catholics mean by sacrament to the Catholic catachism:

For starters, I'd suggest reading the following:

Article 2 THE PASCHAL MYSTERY IN THE CHURCH'S SACRAMENTS

• I. The Sacraments of Christ
• II. The Sacraments of the Church
• III. The Sacraments of Faith
• IV. The Sacraments of Salvation
• V. The Sacraments of Eternal Life
• IN BRIEF

Lutherans officially believe in 2 (Baptism and the Lord's Supper) or 3 (confession is in the BOC but is pretty much rolled into the ceremony for the Lord's Supper as we publically confess our sins...)

I thought the two officially were Baptism and Confirmation. Seems like I read somwhere in a book by a Lutheran author that Martin Luther denied that the Lord's Supper/Eucharist was a sacrament, but I should check my resources to be certain. But, at any rate, if you consider Confirmation a sacrament, then that makes four.

Anyway, I don't think that Luther viewed Sacraments as something that should be limited... A sacrament (God's unconditional blessing and presence) could be experienced anywhere at anytime but a Sacrament was something that was commanded or instituted by Jesus Christ...

A common misconception. Catholics do not limit the sacraments. For instance, matrimony is not just some cerebmony that begins and ends with the Church celebration of a marraige. It the beginning of a covenant between a man, woman, and God. Ordination is similar, though it could be said that a priest is "married" to the Church. But either way, both sacraments do not necessarily limit, no more than the Grace of God limits us. This issue then can be percieved as that of what is part of the life in the Spirit compared to life according to the flesh. For the question of limits (though legalistic in form) is ultimately asking, "what shall I serve?" For there are limitations to a life in the Spirit, as being freed from sin means to be limited by, or in servitude to righteousness; rather than being freed from righteousness and limited by, or in servitude to sin (see Romans 6:20-22).

However, I agree that all of those aspects of the faith that are considered Sacramental by the Catholic Faith are important and very Christian but I don't see a set list a requirement.

But it was asked about how we define the essentials. For Catholics, the 7 sacraments are important and, in some sense or another, required.

If we have a set list of Sacraments, does that not then limit God's real presence in the world?

No. You are thinking legalistically about the Sacraments. For Catholics, Sacraments are part of the reality of God's presence in the world. Note, I did say "part." And they certainly are an important part - hence being considered essentials.

If God can be present elsewhere, do we need a list of Sacraments?

Like was asked earlier, if the Faith alone is enough, what is the need of sacraments at all? Even the Lord's Supper and Baptism can be considered merely pomp and circumstance, and thus not necessary at all. So why the list of sacraments? Well the seven are considered essential by Catholics to the Christian faith. This does not mean that the sacramentals are any less important, but that the seven define the basic elements of all the rest. Some even say that all of them flow from the sacrament of the Eucharist - basically, from the cross, from Jesus Himself.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[stumpjumper]

I thought the two officially were Baptism and Confirmation. Seems like I read somwhere in a book by a Lutheran author that Martin Luther denied that the Lord's Supper/Eucharist was a sacrament, but I should check my resources to be certain. But, at any rate, if you consider Confirmation a sacrament, then that makes four.

No, that's not correct. Luther certainly did not deny the Lord's Supper as a Sacrament. He and Zwingli had it out on that one with Calvin somewhere in the middle. Luther held very strongly to a real physical presence of Jesus Christ at the Eucharist and the Augsburg confessions state as such.

Lutherans do not consider Confirmation a sacrament per se but it is part of the Christian walk instituted by Baptism and faith... I would say, though, that the Lutheran view would be sacraments are unofficially wherever the Spirit dwells and faith abounds.

Officially, the list includes Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Confession if you will...

A common misconception. Catholics do not limit the sacraments.

Neither do we. See we're getting somewhere

For instance, matrimony is not just some ceremony that begins and ends with the Church celebration of a marraige. It the beginning of a covenant between a man, woman, and God. Ordination is similar, though it could be said that a priest is "married" to the Church. But either way, both sacraments do not necessarily limit, no more than the Grace of God limits us. This issue then can be percieved as that of what is part of the life in the Spirit compared to life according to the flesh. For the question of limits (though legalistic in form) is ultimately asking, "what shall I serve?" For there are limitations to a life in the Spirit, as being freed from sin means to be limited by, or in servitude to righteousness; rather than being freed from righteousness and limited by, or in servitude to sin (see Romans 6:20-22).

I agree with all of this.

But it was asked about how we define the essentials. For Catholics, the 7 sacraments are important and, in some sense or another, required.

Hmm. I understand what you're saying but if the view of a sacrament is somewhat open (ie sanctifying grace can be experienced from God in various ways) then I'm not sure if it makes that much difference. I wouldn't say that any of the seven are not sacraments just that they were not sacraments that were given as commands to the disciples and the Church.

Jesus commanded us to Baptize the nations (little children and all) and celebrate the Lord's Supper. The others were not commands and I think that is where Luther made the distinction...

No. You are thinking legalistically about the Sacraments. For Catholics, Sacraments are part of the reality of God's presence in the world. Note, I did say "part." And they certainly are an important part - hence being considered essentials.

That's what I believe too.

Like was asked earlier, if the Faith alone is enough, what is the need of sacraments at all? Even the Lord's Supper and Baptism can be considered merely pomp and circumstance, and thus not necessary at all.

Because they are part of our Christian walk. It is a way to experience God's presence in the here and now and be strengthened to go and do God's work in the world. It is a way to clebrate and glorify God now.

At least that's how I look at it and I believe in justification by grace through faith...

 

[stumpjumper]

No, the number of 7 is for easy teaching.

True. So would you have an issue with a view that would not neccesarily deny that the 7 are sacraments but would consider that Baptism and the Lord's Supper sacraments that were commanded by Jesus and should be viewed differently...

The problem with evangelicals (not lutherans, to have my friend CJ happy) is that they do NOT have the same our believe in sacraments, not even in the two officially held: ...

Well. I guess for those that deny the sacraments completely there's a bit of an issue...

 

[JCrawf]

Stumpjumper, it would seem that we do agree on many things, though having slightly different understanding.

Luther held very strongly to a real physical presence of Jesus Christ at the Eucharist and the Augsburg confessions state as such.

It might have been something of a difference or distinguishment of the Last Supper from the Catholic Eucharist then. A lot of the polemics between Catholics and Protestants seems to be in regards to the whole trying to distinguish one paticular denomination from the views of Rome. Is this a fairly correct assumption?

I would say, though, that the Lutheran view would be sacraments are unofficially wherever the Spirit dwells and faith abounds.

I see, so somewhat like a close association between the sacraments and grace? I'm pretty sure this is similar to Catholic teaching, as the Sacraments are a means of grace.

Hmm. I understand what you're saying but if the view of a sacrament is somewhat open (ie sanctifying grace can be experienced from God in various ways) then I'm not sure if it makes that much difference.

Well, outside of the sacraments, there is the charisms, which are particular to an individual believer. Isn't grace sanctifying, both in a sacrament, a sacramental, and even in individual charisms?

I wouldn't say that any of the seven are not sacraments just that they were not sacraments that were given as commands to the disciples and the Church.

Well, I guess from the POV of a Catholic, the sacraments may not be specifically commanded, but are at least taught in some manner by our Lord. For instance, Matrimony is spoken about by our Lord, and St. Paul spoke on the issue as well.

Jesus commanded us to Baptize the nations (little children and all) and celebrate the Lord's Supper. The others were not commands and I think that is where Luther made the distinction...

Because they are part of our Christian walk. It is a way to experience God's presence in the here and now and be strengthened to go and do God's work in the world. It is a way to clebrate and glorify God now.

Reasonable enough for me.

At least that's how I look at it and I believe in justification by grace through faith...

Same here. Or at least similar.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[stumpjumper]

Stumpjumper, it would seem that we do agree on many things, though having slightly different understanding.

Indeed we do... We can probably add to the list too since ELCA is in full communion with some other Protestant denominations...

It might have been something of a difference or distinguishment of the Last Supper from the Catholic Eucharist then. A lot of the polemics between Catholics and Protestants seems to be in regards to the whole trying to distinguish one paticular denomination from the views of Rome. Is this a fairly correct assumption?

Luther held to the Catholic view of the Eucharist and the Augsburg Confessions pretty much show this... The Council of Trent described the view as transubstantiation after Augbsurg a view which Lutherans then rejected but that was after Augsburg...

Basically, the Eucharist is undefined as it is just stated to be a real presence of Jesus Christ "with, in, and under" the elements... Everybody recieves bread and wine too and I think that distinction is listed but not sure...

I see, so somewhat like a close association between the sacraments and grace? I'm pretty sure this is similar to Catholic teaching, as the Sacraments are a means of grace.

Yep. I agree and for that reason I find the Catholic list very important even if I may not officially consider them sacraments. I do believe they confer sanctifying grace though if faith abounds...

Peace be with you

 

[a_ntv]

Basically, the Eucharist is undefined as it is just stated to be a real presence of Jesus Christ "with, in, and under" the elements... Everybody recieves bread and wine too and I think that distinction is listed but not sure...

The problem with the evangelical believe on the Eucarist is not only on the Real Presence.

If we love ecumenism we could superate the fighting between Transubstantation and Consubstantation, using the world 'Real Presence' (well honestly that is to meet orthodoxes)

But there are other matters:
- the role of the Holy Spirit, canceled by Luther from his eucharistic prayer.
- and mainly the idea of sacrifice in the Eucaristic. The Eucaristic is not only a nice meal with Christ, but it is also His Cross and His Risen. The bread in not only the Boby of Christ, but it is the Body of Christ dead on the Cross for us. Like the bread is the Real Body of the One Christ, the Eucaristic is the Real Sacrifice of the One Real Sacrifice on the Cross. Orthodoxes arrive to say that the altar is the tomb of Christ
- the big intercessory prayer that is made possible only by the Eucaristic, canceled by Luther from his eucharistic prayer.

And an other huge difference is the role of the Church, and the sacrament of ordination (apostolic succession). Without this sacrament the other sacraments (but baptism and perhaps the marriage) are not possible.
Here the division between CC+EO+OO versus evangelicals is huge