Latin Mass Statistics

Gnarwhal

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I just stumbled on to these a few minutes ago. I thought they were pretty interesting, albeit outdated. Nevertheless I didn't expect my state to have the most Latin Masses. We're by far the most populated but California being what it is, I didn't think we would have 103 different parishes offering it (although, since this is most likely outdated I think it's fewer than 103, I know my parish used to have the TLM but stopped about a year before I joined).

One item that I don't understand on the table is the "Voted Obama" column, I'm assuming it's referring to what percentage of the state voted for Obama, not what percentage of Latin Mass attendees voted for him. I mean, in my experience traditional Catholics are overwhelmingly conservative because conservative values +/- traditional Catholic values.

Anyway, here's the page: Latin Mass Statistics
 
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Angeldove97

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I think we might see more modern day Catholics falling away from the Church as time goes on - leaving those who are more Traditional to cling on to "older" methods of celebrating the Mass. I even see Eastern Catholics having their populations grow (I'm trying to find a parish myself). I know that some panic that this is a crisis - I see this more of God refining and recommitting His Church to Himself though. All are welcome and all are called, but if you're really not interested, Lord have mercy.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I just stumbled on to these a few minutes ago. I thought they were pretty interesting, albeit outdated. Nevertheless I didn't expect my state to have the most Latin Masses. We're by far the most populated but California being what it is, I didn't think we would have 103 different parishes offering it (although, since this is most likely outdated I think it's fewer than 103, I know my parish used to have the TLM but stopped about a year before I joined).

One item that I don't understand on the table is the "Voted Obama" column, I'm assuming it's referring to what percentage of the state voted for Obama, not what percentage of Latin Mass attendees voted for him. I mean, in my experience traditional Catholics are overwhelmingly conservative because conservative values +/- traditional Catholic values.

Anyway, here's the page: Latin Mass Statistics
I think the voted for Obama stats of Latin Mass going people would be in the single digits. I think the stats refer to the state as a whole.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I think we might see more modern day Catholics falling away from the Church as time goes on - leaving those who are more Traditional to cling on to "older" methods of celebrating the Mass. I even see Eastern Catholics having their populations grow (I'm trying to find a parish myself). I know that some panic that this is a crisis - I see this more of God refining and recommitting His Church to Himself though. All are welcome and all are called, but if you're really not interested, Lord have mercy.
A smaller but leaner Church. Sad for the losses, but many were lost already except in name. Prayers for them. And prayers for perseverance as things get wilder.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Isn’t this what Pope Benedict predicted though? A smaller Church?
Exactly. And there is bad AND good in being a smaller Church. What we need to do is do our part to preserve something beautiful for God until the end of days..
 
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Gnarwhal

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I think we might see more modern day Catholics falling away from the Church as time goes on - leaving those who are more Traditional to cling on to "older" methods of celebrating the Mass. I even see Eastern Catholics having their populations grow (I'm trying to find a parish myself). I know that some panic that this is a crisis - I see this more of God refining and recommitting His Church to Himself though. All are welcome and all are called, but if you're really not interested, Lord have mercy.

A smaller but leaner Church. Sad for the losses, but many were lost already except in name. Prayers for them. And prayers for perseverance as things get wilder.

I've been thinking the same thing for a long time. A purge, or separation of the wheat from the chaff could be underway soon and this could very well be what remains. Whether it's Latin Mass communities, Ordinariate communities, are Eastern Catholic communities, those seem to be the only ones exhibiting truly sustainable growth.

I imagine that's two-fold because they're drawing faithful Catholics who know deep in their bones that those liturgies are the right liturgies, and also those communities are the only ones giving proper Catholic teaching on the family so couples have lots of kids. The modernist communities of the same stripes as, say, Cardinal Schönborn, are being told the secular lies that lead to couples contracepting and having 1-2, if any, kids—and those parishes are (surprise, surprise) dying out.

Exactly. And there is bad AND good in being a smaller Church. What we need to do is do our part to preserve something beautiful for God until the end of days..

The good being a purification, and an opportunity to strike out in proselytization from a place of strength. The bad being the souls who are at risk because of their choices not to follow Christ and submit to his Church.
 
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Angeldove97

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All liturgies are valid ones - I just question which ones bring us the closest to God. (But I've been spoiled growing up in the Orthodox Church.) At the time when I joined the Catholic Church, I needed that simplicity of prayers I knew, simple readings and homilies, etc ... I need something deeper and miss aspects of what the Orthodox church has.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I've been thinking the same thing for a long time. A purge, or separation of the wheat from the chaff could be underway soon and this could very well be what remains. Whether it's Latin Mass communities, Ordinariate communities, are Eastern Catholic communities, those seem to be the only ones exhibiting truly sustainable growth.

I imagine that's two-fold because they're drawing faithful Catholics who know deep in their bones that those liturgies are the right liturgies, and also those communities are the only ones giving proper Catholic teaching on the family so couples have lots of kids. The modernist communities of the same stripes as, say, Cardinal Schönborn, are being told the secular lies that lead to couples contracepting and having 1-2, if any, kids—and those parishes are (surprise, surprise) dying out.



The good being a purification, and an opportunity to strike out in proselytization from a place of strength. The bad being the souls who are at risk because of their choices not to follow Christ and submit to his Church.
I'm not one to look down upon a properly done novus ordo mass by a faithful priest. Those too draw people who are tired to their bones of clown masses and masses all about Father Funny.

We have to realize that following Vatican II the bureaucrats really messed with the liturgy. And we need to walk that back. In my parish we are, going back to a communion rail finally. As we walk things back we need to keep from fragmenting. And your point about Latin Mass communities, Ordinariate communities, and Eastern Rite communities is well taken. Please do not exclude those communities who do a good job even if they use the novus ordo. We exist too, and we should all be cross fertilizing each other rather than fracturing further. Now the crowd that favors clown masses and masses that are all about the priest and hippie masses and all of that, well, people are voting with their feet as they should.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Please do not exclude those communities who do a good job even if they use the novus ordo. We exist too, and we should all be cross fertilizing each other rather than fracturing further. Now the crowd that favors clown masses and masses that are all about the priest and hippie masses and all of that, well, people are voting with their feet as they should.

Point taken. Though I'm left wondering whether those sorts of Novus Ordos are becoming fewer are farther between. I used to think my parish's first Mass on Sundays was extremely reverent, and it was, but then a few things changed (pastor left, choir director left) and things are eroded ever since.

I know they're out there, but it also seems like it's not just laity who are "converting" to the Traditional Latin Mass, but there are priests as well—like Fr. Dave Nix—who may have begun in the Novus Ordo and then they seek training for the TLM and transition to offering that, sometimes exclusively.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Point taken. Though I'm left wondering whether those sorts of Novus Ordos are becoming fewer are farther between. I used to think my parish's first Mass on Sundays was extremely reverent, and it was, but then a few things changed (pastor left, choir director left) and things are eroded ever since.

I know they're out there, but it also seems like it's not just laity who are "converting" to the Traditional Latin Mass, but there are priests as well—like Fr. Dave Nix—who may have begun in the Novus Ordo and then they seek training for the TLM and transition to offering that, sometimes exclusively.
I think the Latin mass trend is a good thing. And one of the best parts of it to me is that it sort of pulls the novus ordo back to better practices. Back to communion on the tongue, back to altar rails, back to using some Latin in an otherwise English mass, back to reverence for the presence of Jesus in our midst, back to seeing that the mass is a bit of heaven in our midst where the barriers we impose against God get really thinned out to nothing.

And we all need better homilies. Many of the best homilies I have ever heard have been in the Ordinariate.
 
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Dave G.

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I don't know, I've been away from the Catholic church for a long time but things really changed for me personally after Vatican II, it just was never the same. Then in the 80's at least in this area we had the priests shall we say way to gentle ( to me first signs of some possible gay activity), the drunk that did 8 am service and one good pastor. I felt like the church was being demonized and changing to where I just didn't even want to be there. I missed the old church, I knew the Latin because I had to learn it to function as an altar boy in the late 50's and early 60's. So if there is a purging going on, in my view it's long over due. I mean no disrespect to you guys here in saying that. If I ever came back things would have to have rolled back or otherwise change a lot.

I did find out we have one church within reasonable driving distance that does at least some masses in Latin. Course I don't remember much of it by now. It was just so disappointing to me Vatican II, I had poured my heart into the old way, believed it, trusted it, practiced it. I felt like they just pulled the rug out from under my faith. Nuff said, I'm not hear to bash but I can only find a massive change to be a good thing, less of course it's for something even worse !! And "then" is so long ago and I was young and in a super good and strong parish. Today that building is sold off along with many others in that city. Bye for now.
 
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zippy2006

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I'm not one to look down upon a properly done novus ordo mass by a faithful priest. Those too draw people who are tired to their bones of clown masses and masses all about Father Funny.

We have to realize that following Vatican II the bureaucrats really messed with the liturgy. And we need to walk that back. In my parish we are, going back to a communion rail finally. As we walk things back we need to keep from fragmenting. And your point about Latin Mass communities, Ordinariate communities, and Eastern Rite communities is well taken. Please do not exclude those communities who do a good job even if they use the novus ordo. We exist too, and we should all be cross fertilizing each other rather than fracturing further. Now the crowd that favors clown masses and masses that are all about the priest and hippie masses and all of that, well, people are voting with their feet as they should.

I have reservations about the Latin Mass. It strikes me as somewhat faddish.

I haven't looked at this in any great detail, but one of the strongest and oldest arguments in favor of a departure from a Tridentine-style Mass is the argument in favor of the vernacular. The TLM is really an adapted animal, with vernacular readings being given or at least supplemented, with liturgical roles being adapted based on the availability of deacons and subdeacons, etc.

So you often have English readings in the TLM and you often have Latin responses in the Novus Ordo--and Catholics tend to understand the Latin for things like the Sanctus, Mysterium Fidei, Agnus Dei, etc. But liturgical theology really comes to bear in things like the Introit, Propers, and Collects, and I think it heavily favors the vernacular. When the congregation can't understand a word of the culminating prayer that is meant to gather (collect) all of the individual prayers into one there occurs a fairly serious infraction against the theology of communal prayer. Sacrosanctum Concilium didn't give precisely this sort of argument, but it did open the door to the vernacular in a significant way.

The TLM probably has a role, but certainly not as the majority Mass. It is a part of our tradition that should be honored and kept alive, and it can also help guide liturgical practice. Indeed it has had an influence on the Novus Ordo in recent years. It is more common to see priests use incense, substitute the introit for a hymn, celebrate ad orientem, use altar rails, etc. Of course you can argue whether the Council intended to abrogate any of this, including Latin, but the TLM provides the concrete bridge to older liturgical practice. And I think there are good arguments in favor of all of these things that are being incorporated into the Novus Ordo, but I don't think the arguments in favor of Latin hold up (excepting responses). Even 40 years ago the language was taught in many public high schools, but today it is particularly dead.

(There are some interesting and creative arguments that say unintelligible sounds can aid prayer, much like speaking in tongues. Even if there is something true about this, it isn't nearly enough to carry the day.)
 
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Gnarwhal

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I think the Latin mass trend is a good thing. And one of the best parts of it to me is that it sort of pulls the novus ordo back to better practices. Back to communion on the tongue, back to altar rails, back to using some Latin in an otherwise English mass, back to reverence for the presence of Jesus in our midst, back to seeing that the mass is a bit of heaven in our midst where the barriers we impose against God get really thinned out to nothing.

Very interesting, I hadn't thought of it in those terms but that's an encouraging thing. Especially if that started to gain momentum.

And we all need better homilies. Many of the best homilies I have ever heard have been in the Ordinariate.

I believe that, I need to listen to more homilies from the Ordinariate.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I don't know, I've been away from the Catholic church for a long time but things really changed for me personally after Vatican II, it just was never the same. Then in the 80's at least in this area we had the priests shall we say way to gentle ( to me first signs of some possible gay activity), the drunk that did 8 am service and one good pastor. I felt like the church was being demonized and changing to where I just didn't even want to be there. I missed the old church, I knew the Latin because I had to learn it to function as an altar boy in the late 50's and early 60's. So if there is a purging going on, in my view it's long over due. I mean no disrespect to you guys here in saying that. If I ever came back things would have to have rolled back or otherwise change a lot.

I did find out we have one church within reasonable driving distance that does at least some masses in Latin. Course I don't remember much of it by now. It was just so disappointing to me Vatican II, I had poured my heart into the old way, believed it, trusted it, practiced it. I felt like they just pulled the rug out from under my faith. Nuff said, I'm not hear to bash but I can only find a massive change to be a good thing, less of course it's for something even worse !! And "then" is so long ago and I was young and in a super good and strong parish. Today that building is sold off along with many others in that city. Bye for now.
Lots of people felt like they had their faith yanked out from underneath them in the typical liturgical changes following Vatican II. We are finally seeing that a lot of those changes after Vatican II were very unwise, pushed by people of questionable faith, and not all that in line with the documents of Vatican II either. Some of that is being walked back, unevenly, by people who have never ceased being faithful Catholics, or who have re-discovered faithful Catholicism, or the children of both of those groups. There are good, healthy, faithful Catholic parishes out there within a short drove of most people. Whether they be Latin Mass, Ordinariate (former Anglicans), Eastern Rite, or even faithfully done masses in the new rite. You can find them.

All you need to do to come back is go to confession to confess the sins since your last confession. You might want some questions resolved first though, and that might take some time. Keep your eyes open for a vibrant and faithful Catholic parish. Drop in. Eventually speak to the priest. Get your questions answered. Do that confession. And we're back in full communion again. It is not too late and should not be too awkward.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I have reservations about the Latin Mass. It strikes me as somewhat faddish.

I haven't looked at this in any great detail, but one of the strongest and oldest arguments in favor of a departure from a Tridentine-style Mass is the argument in favor of the vernacular. The TLM is really an adapted animal, with vernacular readings being given or at least supplemented, with liturgical roles being adapted based on the availability of deacons and subdeacons, etc.

So you often have English readings in the TLM and you often have Latin responses in the Novus Ordo--and Catholics tend to understand the Latin for things like the Sanctus, Mysterium Fidei, Agnus Dei, etc. But liturgical theology really comes to bear in things like the Introit, Propers, and Collects, and I think it heavily favors the vernacular. When the congregation can't understand a word of the culminating prayer that is meant to gather (collect) all of the individual prayers into one there occurs a fairly serious infraction against the theology of communal prayer.

The TLM probably has a role, but certainly not as the majority Mass. It is a part of our tradition that should be honored and kept alive, and it can also help guide liturgical practice. Indeed it has had an influence on the Novus Ordo in recent years. It is more common to see priests use incense, substitute the introit for a hymn, celebrate ad orientem, use altar rails, etc. Of course you can argue whether the Council intended to abrogate any of this, including Latin, but the TLM provides the concrete bridge to older liturgical practice. And I think there are good arguments in favor of all of these things that are being incorporated into the Novus Ordo, but I don't think the arguments in favor of Latin hold up (excepting responses). Even 40 years ago the language was taught in many public high schools, but today it is particularly dead.

(There are some interesting and creative arguments that say unintelligible sounds can aid prayer, much like speaking in tongues. Even if there is something true about this, it isn't nearly enough to carry the day.)
One must distinguish between TLM and a Latin novus ordo mass. We have a parish in our diocese that never stopped the Latin mass, but it was the Latin mass according to the novus ordo. And the traditionalists flocked to it.

The propers and collects need to be accessible because few of us are real masters of the Latin language. But those parts like the Agnus Dei can be in Latin even when almost everything else in in English, as is the case in my parish.
 
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Angeldove97

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I don't know, I've been away from the Catholic church for a long time but things really changed for me personally after Vatican II, it just was never the same. ...

It was just so disappointing to me Vatican II, I had poured my heart into the old way, believed it, trusted it, practiced it. I felt like they just pulled the rug out from under my faith. Nuff said, I'm not hear to bash but I can only find a massive change to be a good thing, less of course it's for something even worse !!

A lot of Catholics who are a part of the Church are dealing with this too. I only joined the Church in 2005 so I don't know anything different besides seeing huge differences between Roman Catholic liturgies and Russian Orthodox ones. I'm glad there has been more talk about more "traditional" liturgies and I hope that might bring more of the flock back too.
 
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Dave G.

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A lot of Catholics who are a part of the Church are dealing with this too. I only joined the Church in 2005 so I don't know anything different besides seeing huge differences between Roman Catholic liturgies and Russian Orthodox ones. I'm glad there has been more talk about more "traditional" liturgies and I hope that might bring more of the flock back too.
Well I'm hopeful for you guys that the changes are for the better and by that I mean towards truth and not further away. Time will tell.
 
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