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Last 12 Verses of Mark: Part II

justified

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Excuse me, but now it's starting to sound like you're grasping at ad hominem straws. Because you happen to deem something implausible is hardly evidence...and you've ignored a rather large amount of text from Metzger above.

As far as Tirschendorf's story -- what is so fantastic about it? Nothing in it is implausible. A synopsis of the story:

 
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Nazaroo

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Excuse me, but now it's starting to sound like you're grasping at ad hominem straws. Because you happen to deem something implausible is hardly evidence...and you've ignored a rather large amount of text from Metzger above.
Again you sidestep the evidence that doesn't suit you, and offer a red herring.

The Sinai manuscript is a national treasure of another country.
Why hasn't it been returned?
It is hardly the rightful property of the British museum, or Tischendorf.
When are you going to own up to the large scale international theft of other people's cultures and property?
Granted it began when I suppose you could say 'we didn't know any better' ( )
But that defense is bogus now.
Everybody knows Napoleon, the British Empire and most of Europe simply went in and raped all these other countries and cultures, and carried off everything of value or interest, from art to gold.

It wasn't in the name of 'science' or anything else but greed.
 
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Nazaroo

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And I am so glad you brought this up, because it exposes the rampant ongoing fraud surrounding access to these two ancient manuscripts (Sinaiticus and Vaticanus).

FAKE MANUSCRIPT FASCIMILES:

The ordinary student can be forgiven for not understanding the actual scale of the deceit here:
For after every major library in the world, and most museums, have purchased expensive (average $6,000 a pop) 'fascimiles' of these 'important' manuscripts with your tax dollars, the fact remains these extravagant productions are WORTHLESS for textual critical purposes, because as much as they LOOK like photographic reproductions of the pages, in fact they are NOT PHOTOS at all, but TYPESET 'fakes', made with a special typsetter's font that MIMICs the hand of professional scribe of the4th century.

That's right. Those $5,000 copies haven't a single real photo of the manuscript in them. In the case of Sinaiticus, the typical folio is a printing, lovingly hand typeset by Tschendorf himself, with marginal markings hand-added to the plates. There is no way of telling what hand made what reading, what color the ink was, or EVEN IF Tschendorf wrote down all the important variants! Likely not, since that would be an impossible feat to accomplish by one man in a lifetime via a typesetter's tools.

I have included a sample page of a typical copy of 'Codex Sinaiticus' showing that what is available to most scholars is not a real photograph, but a very nice looking, but 'cleaned up' copy of the manuscript. ANOTHER LAYER between the public and the truth about Codex Sinaiticus!

You can access the entire Fascimile here:

Codex Sinaiticus ('fascimile') Online

Again, use "any" "any" for username and password if necessary.

I am uploading a sample page here.

The 'photos' referred to above taken by Lake remain in the British Museum, and although someone might acquire access to them for periods of time for study, will not likely be reproduced freely. The cost of travel alone, if a researcher had to see and handle each manuscript himself would be astronomical, and is in fact the hobby of rich men. Others must rely upon the 'hopefully' accurate collations and observations of a priviledged few.

Among the scholars concerned in the exposure was Tischendorf; and the revenge taken by Simonides was distinctly humorous.
I confess I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this remark. Many scholars, and especially Christians concerned with the bible text, don't find it humorous at all that scholars are engaging in 'negotiations' with criminal antiquity dealers who steal and smuggle national treasures out of foreign countries.

Criminal Activities

This is obviously a most unethical practice completely incompatible with a Christian walk. The quality of the material is dubious, the source in the end can never be properly verified, and the archeaological 'Sitz em Leben' is inevitably ruined.

The continuing purchase of these objects just perpetuates the wholesale destruction of critical historical data, and encourages more fraud. This can be likened almost perfectly to the virtual extinction of the modern elephant and rhino for its tusks, by the continual provision of a black market.

The actual business arrangements can be likened to a hostage negotiation, in which the objects under view are given a ridiculously exaggerated importance, resulting in large quantities of money falling into the hands of criminals (again).

Worthless Manuscripts

But Christians should realise that no single manuscript is worth "$100,000" or even ten cents for the purposes of reconconstructing the New Testament. We already have overwhelming amounts of material from a multitude of independant sources from all ages, and the text of the bible as used by previous Christian brothers and sisters is well known and trivially available.

If as textual critics would like us to believe, that somehow Christians have been the victims of a 'hoax', and have martyred themselves throughout history for an inferior 'conflated' text conjured up by wicked scribes in the 3rd century, then we are to be pitied greatly.

But if in fact the fantasy that somehow there was no Providential protection of the scriptures were true: If Christians were deceived for a thousand years, only to be rescued from their corrupt bibles by some criminals and a handful of Cambridge scholars who long ago abandoned all the fundamental doctrines of Christianity...

If the God we believe in would 'raise up great textual critics' in the last days, who rather than sacrificing their lives as martyrs for Christ, devoted their lives to promoting their pet theories of 'secret rescensions' and conspiracies of the clergy, then the Christian owes these heretical criminals a great debt of gratitude.
 
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Nazaroo

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justified said:
Oh, right. so it has nothing to do with the textual history of Mark. Thank you for clearing that up.
That's a fair assessment. The sporadic mutilation of the text by wealthy patrons for themselves, and the shenanegans of a couple of Cambridge professors from the Oxford Movement era have very little to do with the widespread and normal reproduction of the text of Mark.
 
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Nazaroo

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justified said:
Naz, are we done discussing the short ending of Mark? Just answer the question. If you are attempting to tire me of this discussion, you are succeeding.
Its a labour of love, Justified.
Why else would I do this?
One of my personal goals in this thread is to provide other Christians with simple historical facts and technical information normally hidden from them, or presented in a very biased manner.

I believe Christian men and women can think for themselves, when presented with the actual evidence in a clear and open manner. There is no need to put textual critics and university professors on a pedestal. They are quite capable of mistakes, bias, and hidden political agendas that fellow Christians have a right to be aware of.
 
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Nazaroo

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Some Recently Published NT Papyri from Oxyrhynchus:
An Overview and Preliminary Assessment


Published in Tyndale Bulletin 51 (2000), pp. 1-16 (reprinted with minor alterations) from Peter M. Head:


Regarding my previous point in post #6 and the response in post #7,

I would like to note here that not only are the papyrii from a narrow geographical area and time, but it is actually more extreme than that!
Over half the papyrii are from a single garbage dump in Egypt. The 'rest' are of unknown origin and later or unknown date. And finally, you will notice that the number of papyrii useful to establishing actual readings and texts is less than the number of UNCIALs!
 
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justified

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I do as well. But you are not providing anywhere near unbiased evidence. Half of what I have read is misleading and false or relies on heavy inferences which can't be anywhere near substantiated. You are doing exactly what you think us critics do.
 
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Nazaroo

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justified said:
I do as well. But you are not providing anywhere near unbiased evidence. Half of what I have read is misleading and false or relies on heavy inferences which can't be anywhere near substantiated. You are doing exactly what you think us critics do.
I am amused that you have grouped me with 'others' rather than textual critics like yourself.
Perhaps I didn't renew my subscription to BAR.
But according to your own assessment here, I am indistinguishable from the most famous critics of the last hundred years or so. :o
I am pleased to be numerated among such greats by you.
 
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Nazaroo

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F.H.A. Scrivener, A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, fourth ed. (London: George Bell and Sons, 1894), volume 2, pp. 337-344.


Just to contrast with Metzger, here is Scrivener's analysis:

 
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Nazaroo

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And the Footnotes:
 
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PreacherMan4U

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Next we could perhaps look into the probability of not having Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church? In what we call first Corinthians, Paul states that he had written them before. Does that mean that there were origionally 3 Corinthian letters?
What do you think?
 
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Nazaroo

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Excellent topic for another thread.
Some feel that the first two letters were combined.
Others that an earlier letter was lost.
 
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Nazaroo

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Just to end this thread on a positive note,
I thought you might like to look at one of the most interesting mss,
Codex W (Washingtonus).
This manuscript has the full unbroken finished Ending of Mark 16:9-20,
by the hand of the original scribe. This codex was made from a lectionary,
and displays the usual peculiarities of manuscripts made from the Lectionary stream. For instance, it omits John 7:53-8:11.

Because the manuscript offers evidence against the Johannine pericope,
but at the same time offers evidence for the Mark Ending,
textual critics have had difficulty dating it...

But a simple visual inspection shows that this manuscript is of an Alexandrian style, simple vellium and unornamented. It has all the look and feel of a manuscript a generation or two earlier than either Vaticanus or Sinaiticus,
and reflects a text type they probably copied.

The point is, (W) witnesses for the inclusion of the verses, and its tentatively late (5th century?) date is suspicious because of this.

(EDIT: since you can go here for good quality images, I have deleted the one I posted here for space reasons)

By the way, this manuscript is now online here:

Codex Washingtonus
 
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