Language and discourse, and, while we're at it, reality

[wryan]

Hey again Brimshack,

I have some replies to your last post, but some of what you said I want to think about some more before I answer.

More or less, but I would consider such a prelinguistic phase pretty close to beyond understanding, and if it does exist at any stage, then it may be sufficiently unrelated to adult cognitive operations that any conclusions drawn about it may not help us understand adult cognition.

and

So, you see I am reluctant to draw any conclusions about a non-linguistic or prelinguistic form of consciousness, whether its in a baby OR an adult. I just see to many elements of language in all areas of human behavior.

These two quotes in paticular are somewhat in line with my thinking when I was writing the post you responded to. Right now our minds are so engrained with language structure in our cognition that we have to wonder what would be a way to look back at this pre-linguistic stage, if it does exist, and understand it when right now are minds are so engrained/intertwined with language? You said that you see many elements of language in all areas of human behavior, and I can understand and agree with much of what you said in your post, but is this because our thought processes are so engrained with language that it effects how we're looking at the issue?

A metaphor for where I'm at is that I'm viewing this possible pre-linguistic stage as raw material(concrete, wood, etc), language as the blueprint, and where we are now as the house. Is the blueprint so engrained in our minds that we'd look at a tree and simply see it as part of an eventual house? I need to think about it more and get back to you.
Bill

 

[sad astronaut]

Sad Astronaut,

I hate to steal your thunder, but I'm Christian and have read Ecclesiastes many times. You might note that according to Ecclesiates working your job, playing your xbox, and drinking your chocolate milk are all folly and vanity, so with the way you worded your post, your charges seem a bit out of place. I'm not saying these things are wrong, I do the same thing(although I don't like my job so much and I prefer a good pepsi over chocolate milk), it's just that if you would have pointed out that philosophy doesn't interest you, or that you think it's un-Godly(and shown just why you think so) your point might have been better recieved. Another thing is you didn't point out just what part of Ecclesiates you were referring to.

Take a look at this passage.

CCLES 12:9 And further, because the Preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he pondered, and sought out, `and' set in order many proverbs.
ECCLES 12:10 The Preacher sought to find out acceptable words, and that which was written uprightly, `even' words of truth.
ECCLES 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads; and as nails well fastened are `the words of' the masters of assemblies, `which' are given from one shepherd.
ECCLES 12:12 And furthermore, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
ECCLES 12:13 `This is' the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole `duty' of man.
ECCLES 12:14 For God will bring every work into judgment, with every hidden thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Remember that the entire book of Ecclesiates is about Solomon's quest for truth, which is precisely what we're all seeking here. My thoughts are that in the passage above Solomon is not saying it is wrong to seek after truth. He is saying that we must keep in mind that fearing/seeking God and keeping His commandments are important facets of finding truth, and without this comes "much weariness of flesh."

Here's the thing, both Brimshack and Ben are not Christian. Chances are you can quote the bible to both of them until your blue in the face, but I don't think that would change things. What you can do is meet them where their at and share why you believe what you do and let them make their own decisions on their own terms. Look up Paul's expierience at Antioche if you want a biblical refrence to what I'm saying. The truth is I'd be very happy if both Brimshack and Ben became Christians, but I'm not here to shove my beliefs and ideologies down their throat, and I'll respect and like them just the same no matter what road they choose.

Now I'm not posting all of this just to jab back at you Sad Astrounaut, I'm trying to hold the mirror you put on us back on yourself so you can see where I'm coming from and why I get so frustrated at things like this. I apologize if this post comes across as mean spiritied, I didn't mean it to be that way. The truth is that I get very frustrated because I see many of my fellow Christians treating non Christians as 1.evil heathens or 2.notches on their salvation post ,and I'm strongly opposses to both attitudes. Their is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the views you see here. All I ask is that you take the time to show just why you disagree and just what you think would be a better way to go about things. Ask yourself was the point of your post to condemn us, or to show what you feel God's view is? I hope it was the latter, and if so, all I ask is that you approach it a little differently, you might be suprised. Thanks for listening. Bill

My sincere apologies. After reading this and reflecting on my own post, I do feel badly for what I said and the way I said it. I apologize to you, wryan, brimshack, and ben.

Basically, the idea of my post was to convey the idea that there is more virtue in pursuing the simpler things in life, as opposed to pondering abstract philosophical ideas, and I mentioned the book of Ecclesiastes as an example. However, upon reading your post and your pm, and thinking more about what I wrote, I realize the lack of taste in my post.

About Ecclesiastes, my mentioning it was ill-advised and not appropriate to the topic. An idea that I had previously grasped from the book is that one should not worry too much about the pursuit of knowledge or riches, but enjoy work and the simple pleasures of life. However, Ecclesiastes states that even pursuing pleasure, simple or not, can be utter folly, like you said. The book does not state that pursuing knowledge, which I believe encompasses philosophy and abstract thought, is wrong. I think I was looking at the book from a wrong perspective, and after hearing you talk about the message of Ecclesiastes, I think you properly grasped what it was saying.

I tend to be a utilitarian person (if that's the right word). So, unfortunately, I sometimes have a tendency to look at philosophy as "useless" or "pretentious". However, I realize it is wrong for me to say or even think that, and I don't truly believe that philosophy is useless. People should do what they enjoy, whether it be playing video games or pondering deep questions. Since coming to this forum, I have gotten more into philosophical questions, I just haven't gotten into the "hard stuff" yet, like the nature of reality.

Once again, I apologize. Your post and message, wryan, made me see the bad attitude I had. Maybe after some time, I can chat with you guys. It's just a little over my head at the moment.

 

[Brimshack]

No problem here Sad Astronaut, and I would also suggest that much of life's value lies in the simple things. I would add, however, that this does not in any way mean we should avoid philosophical discussions. I would also add that I honestly think Christianity and other western religions needlessly complicate life with a barrage of metaphysical assertions, many of which actively distort reality and pervert natural desires. A great deal of my own philosophical efforts have gone into trying to disentangle these needless complications. Do you disagree with my position (or perhaps believe it is true of other false beliefs, but mnot your own)? Well, that's where these discussions get started. Much of philosophy is useless and pretentious, but if two or more people have a genuine disagreement about something like this, then taking the time to clarify each other's positions and explore some reasons for believing one way or another isn't such a bad idea. It's certainly better than physically asaulting each other.

Wryan, I must admit that the tree looks like a porch-in-the-making to me.

 

[sad astronaut]

No problem here Sad Astronaut, and I would also suggest that much of life's value lies in the simple things. I would add, however, that this does not in any way mean we should avoid philosophical discussions. I would also add that I honestly think Christianity and other western religions needlessly complicate life with a barrage of metaphysical assertions, many of which actively distort reality and pervert natural desires. A great deal of my own philosophical efforts have gone into trying to disentangle these needless complications. Do you disagree with my position (or perhaps believe it is true of other false beliefs, but mnot your own)? Well, that's where these discussions get started. Much of philosophy is useless and pretentious, but if two or more people have a genuine disagreement about something like this, then taking the time to clarify each other's positions and explore some reasons for believing one way or another isn't such a bad idea. It's certainly better than physically asaulting each other.

Wryan, I must admit that the tree looks like a porch-in-the-making to me.

Hmm, since I am a Christian, I, of course, would disagree that Christianity destorts reality and perverts natural desires. I can definitely see your point. I would say Christianity is definitely at odds with our natural desires. I would argue that by moderating these desires and avoiding some by following Biblical principles, a person can live a happier and more fulfilled life. For example, I have the desire to have premarital sex, but by not fulfilling this desire, I can have more meaningful and pure sex when I get married. The Bible states that we should not get drunk, and by following this principle alcohol is less likely to destroy my life. (which I realize alcohol moderation is not exclusive to Christianity, I just couldn't think of a better example at the moment). And I can't prove my assertions, this is just what I believe based on biblical principles.

Many Christians, however, complicate things even more by adding their own sets of rules and regulations, and the Bible even warns against this "legalism". Laws such as how to worship, how to dress and wear their hair, and avoiding pleasure for the sake of "pleasure being evil" are all false doctrines arising in branches of Christianity.

As far as distorting reality, concerning my faith, is all a matter of if the Bible is true or not. Does having faith complicate reality? I'm not sure. I think Christians and those with other beliefs just have an established foundation to base other thoughts on. For many Christians, as you know, spiritual beliefs affect other facets of thought, especially political. I think every one of faith and of no faith have questions concerning reality and higher things, it is just that people of faith have some questions answered (or believe they do). So I'm not sure faith complicates reality, it just provides a set of axioms to base other thoughts on. If their faith is false, of course it distorts reality, but in my case, I believe that I have a good beginning in understanding reality, but despite my faith, there are many things I still have questions about.

I feel like I could write volumes on this. I hope this enlightens you somewhat as to your question. I know the question contains many facets, and I can clarify anything you don't understand.

 

[wryan]

My sincere apologies. After reading this and reflecting on my own post, I do feel badly for what I said and the way I said it. I apologize to you, wryan, brimshack, and ben.

Basically, the idea of my post was to convey the idea that there is more virtue in pursuing the simpler things in life, as opposed to pondering abstract philosophical ideas, and I mentioned the book of Ecclesiastes as an example. However, upon reading your post and your pm, and thinking more about what I wrote, I realize the lack of taste in my post.

About Ecclesiastes, my mentioning it was ill-advised and not appropriate to the topic. An idea that I had previously grasped from the book is that one should not worry too much about the pursuit of knowledge or riches, but enjoy work and the simple pleasures of life. However, Ecclesiastes states that even pursuing pleasure, simple or not, can be utter folly, like you said. The book does not state that pursuing knowledge, which I believe encompasses philosophy and abstract thought, is wrong. I think I was looking at the book from a wrong perspective, and after hearing you talk about the message of Ecclesiastes, I think you properly grasped what it was saying.

I tend to be a utilitarian person (if that's the right word). So, unfortunately, I sometimes have a tendency to look at philosophy as "useless" or "pretentious". However, I realize it is wrong for me to say or even think that, and I don't truly believe that philosophy is useless. People should do what they enjoy, whether it be playing video games or pondering deep questions. Since coming to this forum, I have gotten more into philosophical questions, I just haven't gotten into the "hard stuff" yet, like the nature of reality.

Once again, I apologize. Your post and message, wryan, made me see the bad attitude I had. Maybe after some time, I can chat with you guys. It's just a little over my head at the moment.

Once again, I just want to say I have alot of respect for the way you apologized here SA. It's not an easy thing to do, and it's a refreshing thing to see.

As you said about Ecclesiastes, it's about priorities. It's the realization that the Lord should be first and foremost in all that we do. Other references to this are why I believe "treasures in heaven" is mentioned so much in the New Testament. I don't see this is as meaning we will have "bigger mansions", "bigger crowns", etc...it's more like if your focus is upon something eternal(God) than it will simply grow and blossom for eternity, but if your focus and love is totally upon something mortal(our jobs, riches, etc) then it shall whither and die as all mortal things whither and die eventually. Dante took this to a morbid extreme in The Inferno, but as in all art, sometimes you need to smack somebody in the face with an exageration just so they'll see your point.

Philosophy to me is a way of worshipping God if that makes any sense, but I suppose just about anything can be depending on how you approach it. It also forces me to ask questions that I might be afraid to ask, look deeper than I'd like to, and also see things from a new perspective. Brimshack ,for instance, will not hesitate to ask the hardest questions of my convictions, he'll ask the very same questions that I might be afraid to ask, point to inconsistencies in my views that I might not see. This is one of the reasons I enjoy talking to him. It forces me to grow and examine myself and my beliefs which is a very good thing, and one of the few ways we grow. As Hunter Thompson would say, "If you're going to do a thing, you might as well do it right!" So I bought the ticket, now I suppose I'll take the ride.lol

Before I go, if I had it to do over again the Christian thing to do would have been to PM you first and not write a public post and I apologize for laying it out there like that. I guess I let my frustration get the better of me and I'm sorry. Talk to you soon. Bill

 

[wryan]

Wryan, I must admit that the tree looks like a porch-in-the-making to me.