Lake of Fire

[Halbhh]

A verse that comes to mind, is that there will be "gnashing of teeth" for the unrepentant, in outer darkness. There's is no "gnashing" of teeth if one is annihilated or dead.

I believe it's in Revelation.

Would like me to find the verse?

The gnashing of teeth for the perishing is in several place in the gospels.

But gnashing of teeth isn't immortality.

The gnashing of teeth doesn't mean they are not dying. It would happen for a time, until they perish.

The Lake of Fire will be eternal punishment for either those that are already immortal, such as the fallen angels, or for those that would instead perish there in that fire which can "destroy" -- Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

In my earlier post to which you responded you could see more scriptures to look at to try to learn more about whether those that will perish have eternal life.

To maintain a doctrine you mentioned it is necessary to take a lot of very literal sounding verses and try to make them all metaphorical. We should be cautious about doing so. It's usually better to take the literal sounding verses as literal.

 

[timothyu]

Nonsense! Rubbish!

I was referring to those who focus on hell rather than the Kingdom. Many often prefer the hell route because they prefer to keep their will rather than surrender it and accept God's. They distract from the Kingdom and in turn it keeps attention away from their failure to reject the will of man.

Actually this served the church quite well that rebelled against the Gospel of the Kingdom and teamed up with the world of man to create a new governmental institution of man, not God, 1700 years ago. The blind have lead the blind in that tradition ever since..

 

[fwGod]

A cemetery?

That, I would think comes from (for whatever reason) a limited as well as purposely selective view concerning the topic rather than a more extensive research.

The world of the dead (Sheol, Hades, Hell..) is deep down, an abyss, a pit. Much farther than a 6 feet deep grave in a cemetery.

But don't take my word for it.

The Bible says that Jesus was interred in a tomb on the surface of the ground. Yet the Bible also says of Him.

Eph.4:8-10 "This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.” What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the very one who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill all things."
Rom.10:6-7 "But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or, ‘Who will descend into the Abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”​

Do research to Jewish Hebrew websites as well as Christian Bible websites.. addressing the words "sheol", "hades", "hell".

For instance, from Bible study tools. "By the time of Jesus, it was common for Jews to believe that the righteous dead go to a place of comfort while the wicked go to Hades ("Hades" normally translates "Sheol" in the LXX), a place of torment (Luke 16:22-23)."

From studylight. "Sheol. The abode of the dead in Hebrew thought. Sheol was thought to be deep within the earth (Psalm 88:6; Ezekiel 26:20; Ezekiel 31:14-15; Amos 9:2). For the dead Sheol is a place of pain and distress (Psalm 116:3), weakness (Isaiah 14:10), helplessness (Psalm 88:4); hopelessness (Isaiah 38:10), and destruction (Isaiah 38:17)."

The Hebrew/Jewish websites like The Jewish Encyclopedia, My Jewish learning, Abarim publications.. have much the same information.

 

[timothyu]

What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth?

Yes this world (in earth). The concept was that heaven was above and our universe below. They were joined for a time then separated. like two globes that meshed a bit with the 'Garden in between then pulled apart eliminating the joined section.

 

[fwGod]

Are not the dead in their beds hidden from suffering? Same thing

No, it's not the same thing. The verse in Psalms (my previous post) is speaking of the physical body in death, but the verse in Job is speaking specifically of trusting in God's mercy not to be suffering in the afterlife of the nether world.

A bed, as in lying down in a cave or tomb or ancient forms of interment of the dead.. or in the modern forms of putting the dead in a grave.. would only be referring to the physical body.
The suffering that Job speaks of would coincide with the torment where the rich man was in the lower region of Sheol or Abraham's Bosom as Jesus spoke of in Luke 16.

Not making the distinction, the tendency is to gloss over it which results in presuming that there is no difference.

 

[sdowney717]

How can “perish” refer to going away to a place where people keep on living forever? How can it suggest a Hell of eternal torment, where in order to be tormented, someone must have everlasting life?

Your belief of annihilation does make more sense than eternal torment (but that's still not what I see in Scripture).

Second death same as the first but with no chance of resurrection this time.

Scripturally all are resurrected, the wicked (unjust) and the just (justified) , come to life in a sense, some to the ressurection of life, some to the ressurection of judgement, condemnation, damnation.
Resurrection means to be given a new body of some sort and the soul or the spirit put back into a body different from the old body that rotted or is gone away one way or another has returned to the dust.

Paul says this, Jesus also said it.
Acts 24:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. 16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.

John 5:27-29 New King James Version (NKJV)
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[fwGod]

Yes this world (in earth). The concept was that heaven was above and our universe below. They were joined for a time then separated. like two globes that meshed a bit with the 'Garden in between then pulled apart eliminating the joined section.

That is an entirely different topic.. and therefore it completely ignores the distinctions of the Biblical passages I gave, that is talking about where Jesus went after His death.

Three post replies are my limit so this concludes my participation. Have a nice day.

 

[timothyu]

A bed, as in lying down in a cave or tomb or ancient forms of interment of the dead.. or in the modern forms of putting the dead in a grave.. would only be referring to the physical body.
The suffering that Job speaks of would coincide with the torment where the rich man was in the lower region of Sheol or Abraham's Bosom as Jesus spoke of in Luke 16.

Interpretation, no?

 

[sdowney717]

Adding about the resurrection of the wicked dead, they have a body and soul.

“And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mt. 10:28).

Mark 9:43-48 English Standard Version (ESV)
43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

 

[timothyu]

“And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Mt. 10:28).

 

[sdowney717]

Mark 9:43-48 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) uses the gehenna, which is the word for hell the unquenchable fire, can God make a fire that never goes out? Sure He can..

43 `And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

44 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.

45 `And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

46 where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.

47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --

48 where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;

 

[timothyu]

unquenchable

un·quench·a·ble

adjective
adjective: unquenchable
not able to be quenched.

No third chance.

 

[sdowney717]

un·quench·a·ble

adjective
adjective: unquenchable
not able to be quenched.

No third chance.

They never get out. If they are down in the pit, they cant climb out from the pit. If you were down in a pit in the earth neither could you get out. God can make a pit that you can get out from.

 

[timothyu]

They never get out. If they are down in the pit, they cant climb out from the pit. If you were down in a pit in the earth neither could you get out. God can make a pit that you can get out from.

Is that not adding to the definition?

 

[sdowney717]

The bottomless pit of hell fire, none get out unless released, it is as a prison of fire, yet these creatures come out from the smoke of the bottomless pit to terrorize mankind, per the will of God.

Revelation 9:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit
1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.

3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

 

[timothyu]

More fill with no mention of fallen man in the pit

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<MK>The Greek word mello is a word related to time and it means “even now, about to be, about to do” in terms of something happening. It is used in John 18:32 for instance (NASB), “to fulfill the word of Jesus which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death he was ABOUT TO die.” No one would say that this means we are still waiting 2000 years later for Jesus to die! So to, John the Baptist describes the wheat and chaff separation and fire metaphor as something about to happen in their day!,...<MK>

end

The definition of "mello" from BDAG one of, if not, the highest accredited Greek lexicons available.

μέλλω
(Hom.+) fut. μελλήσω; impf. ἔμελλον (all edd. J 6:6; Ac 21:27) and ἤμελλον (all edd. Lk 7:2; 19:4; J 4:47; 12:33; 18:32; Hb 11:8; s. B-D-F §66, 3; W.-S. §12, 3; Mlt-H. 188. In Att. ins the ἠ-appears after 300 B.C. [Meisterhans3-Schw. 169]. In IPriene ἐ-occurs only once: 11, 5 [c. 297 B.C.]).
① to take place at a future point of time and so to be subsequent to another event, be about to, used w. an inf. foll.
ⓐ only rarely w. the fut. inf., w. which it is regularly used in ancient Gk. (Hom. et al.), since in colloquial usage the fut. inf. and ptc. were gradually disappearing and being replaced by combinations with μέλλω (B-D-F §338, 3; 350; s. Rob. 882; 889). W. the fut. inf. μ. denotes certainty that an event will occur in the future μ. ἔσεσθαι (SIG 914, 10 μέλλει ἔσεσθαι; 247 I, 74 ἔμελλε … [δώσε]ιν; Jos., Ant. 13, 322; Mel., P. 57, 415) will certainly take place or be Ac 11:28; 24:15; 27:10; 1 Cl 43:6; cp. Dg 8:2.
ⓑ w. the aor. inf. (rarely in ancient Gk. [but as early as Hom., and e.g. X., Cyr. 1, 4, 16]; Herodas 3, 78 and 91; UPZ 70, 12 [152/1 B.C.]; PGiss 12, 5; POxy 1067, 17; 1488, 20; Ex 4:12; Job 3:8; 2 Macc 14:41; JosAs 29:3; ParJer 9:13; GrBar 4:15 [Christ.]; ApcMos13; s. Phryn. p. 336; 745ff Lob.; WRutherford, New Phryn. 1881, 420ff) be on the point of, be about to, μ. ἀποκαλυφθῆναι be about to be revealed Ro 8:18. τὸ δωδεκάφυλον τοῦ Ἰσραὴλ μέλλον ἀπολέσθαι the twelve tribes of Israel that were about to be destroyed 1 Cl 55:6. ἤμελλεν προαγαγεῖν Ac 12:6. ἀποθανεῖν Rv 3:2. ἐμέσαι vs. 16. τεκεῖν 12:4.
ⓒ w. the pres. inf. So mostly (ca. 80 times in the NT.; oft. in lit., ins, pap, LXX; TestAbr B 4 p. 108, 14 [Stone p. 64]; ApcEsdr 6:23f p. 32, 2f Tdf.; EpArist; Demetr.: 722 Fgm. 7 Jac.; Just., A I, 51, 8; D. 32, 4 al.; Tat. 14, 1; Mel., P. 38, 263; Ath. 32, 1).
α. be about to, be on the point of ἤμελλεν τελευτᾶν he was at the point of death (Aristot. Fgm. 277 [in Apollon. Paradox. 27] and Diod S 6, 4, 3 μέλλων τελευτᾶν; cp. Jos., Ant. 4, 83; 12, 357) Lk 7:2. Also ἤμελλεν ἀποθνῄσκειν (Artem. 4, 24 p. 217, 5 γραῦς μέλλουσα ἀποθνῄσκειν; Aesop, Fab. 131 P.=202 H.; 233 P.=216 H.; 2 Macc 7:18; 4 Macc 10:9) J 4:47. ἤμελλεν ἑαυτὸν ἀναιρεῖν he was about to kill himself Ac 16:27. Of God’s eschat. reign μέλλειν ἔρχεσθαι 1 Cl 42:3. Of heavenly glory ἡ μέλλουσα ἀποκαλύπτεσθαι 1 Pt 5:1. Cp. Lk 19:4; J 6:6; Ac 3:3; 5:35; 18:14; 21:27; 22:26; 23:27.—Occasionally almost = begin ἤμελλον γράφειν Rv 10:4. ὅταν μέλλῃ ταῦτα συντελεῖσθαι πάντα when all these things are (or begin) to be accomplished Mk 13:4; cp. Lk 21:7; Rv 10:7.
β. in a weakened sense it serves simply as a periphrasis for the fut. (PMich III, 202, 8ff; 13ff [105 A.D.].—Mayser II/1, 226) ὅσα λαλῶ ἢ καὶ μ. λαλεῖν (=ἢ καὶ λαλήσω) what I tell or shall tell Hm 4, 4, 3. So esp. oft. in Hermas: μ. λέγειν v 1, 1, 6; 3, 8, 11; m 11:7, 17; Hs 5, 2, 1. μ. ἐντέλλεσθαι v 5:5; m 5, 2, 8. μ. κατοικεῖν Hs 1:1; 4:2. μ. χωρεῖν (=χωρήσω) IMg 5:1. μ. βασιλεύειν GJs 23:2.—Substitute for the disappearing fut. forms (inf. and ptc. B-D-F §356); for the fut. inf.: προσεδόκων αὐτὸν μέλλειν πίμπρασθαι Ac 28:6; for the fut. ptc.: ὁ μέλλων ἔρχεσθαι Mt 11:14. ὁ τοῦτο μέλλων πράσσειν the one who was going to do this Lk 22:23; cp. 24:21; Ac 13:34. οἱ μέλλοντες πιστεύειν those who were to believe (in him) in the future 1 Ti 1:16; 1 Cl 42:4; Hm 4, 3, 3. μέλλοντες ἀσεβεῖν those who were to be ungodly in the future 2 Pt 2:6 v.l. (s. 3, end). Of Christ ὁ μέλλων κρίνειν 2 Ti 4:1; 7:2. οἱ μέλλοντες ἀρνεῖσθαι = οἱ ἀρνησόμενοι Hv 2, 2, 8. πυρὸς ζῆλος ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους raging fire that will devour the opponents Hb 10:27.
γ. denoting an intended action: intend, propose, have in mind μέλλει Ἡρῴδης ζητεῖν τὸ παιδίον Herod intends to search for the child Mt 2:13. οὗ ἤμελλεν αὐτὸς ἔρχεσθαι where he himself intended to come Lk 10:1. μέλλουσιν ἔρχεσθαι they intended to come J 6:15. Cp. vs. 71; 7:35; 12:4; 14:22; Ac 17:31; 20:3, 7, 13ab; 23:15; 26:2; 27:30; Hb 8:5; 2 Pt 1:12. τί μέλλεις ποιεῖν; what do you intend to do? Hs 1:5. οὐ μ. ποιεῖν I have no intention of doing MPol 8:2. μ. προσηλοῦν they wanted to nail him fast 13:3. μ. λαμβάνειν we wanted to take him out 17:2.
② to be inevitable, be destined, inevitable
ⓐ w. pres. inf. to denote an action that necessarily follows a divine decree is destined, must, will certainly … μ. πάσχειν he is destined to suffer Mt 17:12; B 7:10; 12:2; cp. 6:7. μ. σταυροῦσθαι must be crucified 12:1. μ. παραδίδοσθαι Mt 17:22; Lk 9:44; 16:5. ἔμελλεν ἀποθνῄσκειν J 11:51; 12:33; 18:32. ἐν σαρκὶ μ. φανεροῦσθαι B 6:7, 9, 14. Cp. Mt 16:27; 20:22; Ro 4:24; 8:13; Rv 12:5. οὐκέτι μέλλουσιν … θεωρεῖν they should no more see … Ac 20:38. τὰ μ. γίνεσθαι what must come to pass 26:22; cp. Rv 1:19. διὰ τοὺς μέλλοντας κληρονομεῖν σωτηρίαν those who are to inherit salvation Hb 1:14. μέλλομεν θλίβεσθαι that we were to be afflicted 1 Th 3:4.—Mk 10:32; Lk 9:31; J 7:39; Hb 11:8. ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ᾗ ἔμελλε θηριομαχεῖν on the day on which Paul was to fight the wild animals AcPl Ha 3, 9. ὡς μελλούσης τῆς πόλεως αἴρεσθαι in expectation of the city’s destruction 5, 16. ἄνωθεν μέλλω σταυροῦσθαι I (Jesus) am about to be crucified once more 7, 39.
ⓑ w. aor. inf. ἀποκαλυφθῆναι that is destined (acc. to God’s will) to be revealed Gal 3:23.
③ The ptc. is used abs. in the mng. (in the) future, to come (Pind., O. 10, 7 ὁ μέλλων χρόνος ‘the due date’) ὁ αἰὼν μέλλων the age to come (s. αἰών 2b), which brings the reign of God (opp. ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος or ὁ νῦν αἰών) Mt 12:32; Eph 1:21; 2 Cl 6:3; Pol 5:2; cp. Hb 6:5. Also ὁ μ. καιρός (opp. ὁ νῦν κ.) 4:1. ἡ μ. ζωή (opp. ἡ νῦν ζ.) 1 Ti 4:8. ὁ μ. βίος (opp. ὁ νῦν β.) 2 Cl 20:2. ἡ μ. βασιλεία 5:5; ἡ οἰκουμένη ἡ μ. the world to come Hb 2:5. ἡ μέλλουσα πόλις (as wordplay, opp. [οὐ … ] μένουσα π.) 13:14. ἡ μ. ἐπαγγελία the promise for the future 2 Cl 10:3f. τὰ μ. ἀγαθά Hb 9:11 v.l.; Hv 1, 1, 8. ἡ μ. ἀνάστασις 1 Cl 24:1; τὸ κρίμα τὸ μ. the judgment to come Ac 24:25; cp. 1 Cl 28:1; 2 Cl 18:2; MPol 11:2. ἡ μ. ὀργή Mt 3:7; IEph 11:1. ἡ μ. θλῖψις Hv 4, 2, 5. τὰ μ. σκάνδαλα 4:9.—ἡ μέλλουσά σου ἀδελφή your future sister=the one who in the future will be your sister, no longer your wife Hv 2, 2, 3. Several times the noun can be supplied fr. the context: τύπος τοῦ μέλλοντος, i.e. Ἀδάμ Ro 5:14.—Subst. τὸ μέλλον the future (Aeneas Tact. 422; 431 al.; Antiphanes Com. [IV B.C.] 227 K.; Menand., Monostich. 412 [608 Jaekel] Mei.; Anacreont. 36; Plut., Caes. 14, 4; Herodian 1, 14, 2; SIG 609, 5; ViEzk 13 [p. 75, 12 Sch.]; Philo, Mel.) 1 Cl 31:3. εἰς τὸ μ. for the future (Jos., Ant. 9, 162) 1 Ti 6:19; specif. (in the) next year (PLond III, 1231, 4 p. 108 [144 A.D.] τὴν εἰς τὸ μέλλον γεωργείαν; s. Field, Notes 65) Lk 13:9. τὰ μ. the things to come (X., Symp. 4, 47; Aeneas Tact. 1050; Artem. 1, 36; Wsd 19:1; TestJob 47:9; JosAs 23:8; Philo; Just., D. 7, 1; Ath. 27, 2) Col 2:17; PtK 3 p. 15, 21. (Opp. τὰ ἐνεστῶτα the present as PGM 5, 295) Ro 8:38; 1 Cor 3:22; B 1:7; 5:3; 17:2. Ox 1081 39f (SJCh 91, 2) (s. ἀρχή 2). Uncertain 2 Pt 2:6 (if ἀσεβέσιν is to be retained, the ref. is to impending judgment for the impious).
④ delay τί μέλλεις why are you delaying? (cp. Aeschyl., Prom. 36; Eur., Hec. 1094; Thu. 8, 78; Lucian, Dial. Mort. 10, 13; Jos., Bell. 3, 494 τί μέλλομεν; 4 Macc 6:23; 9:1) Ac 22:16. οὐ μελλήσας without delay AcPl Ha 8, 4. The connection in AcPt Ox 849, 1 is uncertain.—B. 974. DELG. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 627–628). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[sdowney717]

Is that not adding to the definition?

Hell is not one or two dimensional, hell has levels. It has a bottomless depth that only God knows.

If there is a lowest hell, then there is a level above the lowest hell.
Deuteronomy 32:22

For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

 

[sdowney717]

More fill with no mention of fallen man in the pit

Isaiah 38:18
For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.

Isaiah 14:14-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.

16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,

 

[sdowney717]

About the Abyss, what is the bottomless pit, is the GREAT DEEP, under the earth, the underworld.
Look up the DEEP in scripture if your curious, the deep is what the earth arose out from.
Abyss (religion) - Wikipedia

In the Bible, the abyss is an unfathomably deep or boundless space. The term comes from the Greek ἄβυσσος, meaning bottomless, unfathomable, boundless.[1] It is used as both an adjective and a substantive.[2] It appears in the Septuagint, the earliest Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, and in the New Testament. It translates the Hebrew words tehom (deep), tsulah (sea-deep, deep flood) and rachabh (spacious place).[2]

In the original sense of the Hebrew tehom, the abyss was the primordial waters or chaos out of which the ordered world was created (Genesis 1:2). The term could also refer literally to the depths of the sea, the deep source of a spring or the interior of the earth.[3]

In a later extended sense in intertestamental Jewish literature, the abyss was the underworld, either the abode of the dead (sheol) or eventually the realm of the rebellious spirits (Hell). In the latter sense, specifically, the abyss was often seen as a prison for demons. This usage was picked up in the New Testament.[3][4] Jesus send the Gadarene swine into the abyss (Luke 8:31) and the antichrist will rise out of the abyss (Revelation 11:7). Paul uses the term in Romans 10:7 when quoting Psalm 71:20, referring to the abode of the dead.[5]

In Psalm 42:7, "deep calls to deep" (referring to the waters), or in Latin abyssus abyssum invocat, developing the theme of the longing of the soul for God. Cassiodorus relates this passage to the mutual witness of the two Testaments, the Old Testament foretelling the New, and the New Testament fulfilling the Old.[6]

In Revelation 9:11, Abaddon is called "the angel of the abyss".