Kylie's Pool Challenge, Mark II

[Speedwell]

False accusation much?

How do you know? How do you know which SDAs have met and what they were like? On the whole I have found them to be generous and compassionate.

 

[Speedwell]

You have repeatedly argued that the the gospels were the part you are affirming.

Of course I affirm the Gospels--they are the heart of Christianity. But I will say one more time, that I affirm that the Bible in its entirety is the inspired and authoritative word of God. If you can't accept that then perhaps you had just better let it go.

 

[Speedwell]

Everything else is a lie?

Is the United States blessed by God today because of the Abrahamic Covenant?

Is Jerusalem currently in the "times of the Gentiles"?

I could tell you what I think the information in your Post 318 is, but then I'd get moderated.

If your opinions are unacceptable in a Christian forum perhaps you should reconsider them. But I am surprised to hear of such a thing from a Dispensationalist for whom, if I am not mistaken, the entire Bible represents the plan of our salvation. Even for those Christians who are not Dispensationalists, our salvation in Christ is the overriding theme of the work.

 

[AV1611VET]

... our salvation in Christ is the overriding theme of the work.

Are you backing off from this then, because your words are quite different:

The only truth of scripture is our salvation in Christ.

If so, I'm glad to hear it.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course I affirm the Gospels--they are the heart of Christianity. But I will say one more time, that I affirm that the Bible in its entirety is the inspired and authoritative word of God.

where the only truth of scripture is?

Speedwell said: ↑
The only truth of scripture is our salvation in Christ.

Which you bring up on a creation vs evolution thread because?

 

[BobRyan]

I also have never met an SDA as hostile to Christians of other traditions as you.

False accusation much?

How do you know? How do you know which SDAs have met

How do I know you have not seen me hostile to other Christian traditions ??

 

[Hammster]

Meh; if I read it right, that doesn't apply to men those who don't suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is not evident within them; for God has not made it evident to them.

Just sayin'.

Just readin’ wrong.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Just readin’ wrong.

Says you without explanation.

 

[BobRyan]

This is me having a discussion with Kylie (who describes herself as atheist) about the Bible as the inspired word of God - and evidence that shows it

People say that about lots of different religious texts. Without evidence to back up the Bible (such evidence being something other than the Bible itself), the claim doesn't carry any weight, except among believers.

1. That is circular reasoning because how did all those atheists and agnostics become "believers" in the Bible if the only way to get there was as you say "to already be a believer"?

2. The Bible does contain evidence that it is inspired, and can be accessed by one who is willing to measure objective reality as was shown earlier in the case of the devout atheist evolutionist, professor of biology -- that became a believer a creationist because of the reality of Bible predictions proven to be true.

Point taken. But I've found that the arguments that are used in those cases are mostly emotional arguments, they have very little actual evidence.
.

I have yet to meet an atheist or agnostic that said they decided to forget all that and just start believing the Bible is true because someone who believes the bible cried or was emotional. I have never seen any atheist give that as their reason for their switch to full-on faith in the Word of God.

Are you seeing them do that a lot ? From your response it would appear that this is all you see them doing in that regard.

2. The Bible does contain evidence that it is inspired, and can be accessed by one who is willing to measure objective reality as was shown earlier in the case of the devout atheist evolutionist, professor of biology -- that became a believer a creationist because of the reality of Bible predictions proven to be true.

Also bear in mind that I've seen Muslims claim that there is evidence that the Koran is divinely inspired as well, so the Bible is hardly unique in that regard.

1. One would assume that all major religions claim their holy book is inspired by some divine being. isn't that the whole point?

2. I don't know of any book other than the bible that predicted thousands of years of human history in advance.
==================================

Then comes this...

I'm not prepared to believe that very many people have come to Christ because "prophecy proves the Bible." To begin with, Christians who believe that kind of thing are a small minority of Christians as a whole. How does it work? You prove that the Bible is "true" by OT prophecies so then you have to believe the Gospels are true and if the Gospels are true then you have to believe in Jesus?

so then my response

Well hmmm lets see..

=================================
Christianity Today seems like a good place to start.

2015

Adventists: Can Ben Carson's Church Stay Separatist?

"In 2014, for the 10th year in a row, more than 1 million people became Adventists, hitting a record 18.1 million members. Adventism is now the fifth-largest Christian communion worldwide, after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and the Assemblies of God."

===============================
And then there is USA TODAY -

2011

Adventists' back-to-basics faith is fastest growing U.S. church - USATODAY.com
" Adventists' back-to-basics faith is fastest growing U.S. church"
"Newly released data show Seventh-day Adventism growing by 2.5% in North America, a rapid clip for this part of the world, where Southern Baptists and mainline denominations, as well as other church groups are declining. Adventists are even growing 75% faster than Mormons (1.4 percent), who prioritize numeric growth.

For observers outside the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the growth rate in North America is perplexing."
=============================

So how are they doing that?? well they do it using the very method you say in your post that you can't imagine being used.. to do that very thing. -- They start by showing that the proven predictions of the Bible - prove that the Bible is inspired by God.

and of course we have this --

But I will say one more time, that I affirm that the Bible in its entirety is the inspired and authoritative word of God.

So I point out that the conversation you joined is one where I was explaining to a member that claims to hold the atheist POV - how that conclusion that you stated above is reached -- i.e. a bridge from point a to point b.

 

[Hammster]

Says you without explanation.

Paul is explaining that men know God, and if they deny God it’s because they are suppressing that truth. And they do so because of unrighteousness.

 

[BobRyan]

interesting how this starts

People say that about lots of different religious texts. Without evidence to back up the Bible (such evidence being something other than the Bible itself), the claim doesn't carry any weight, except among believers.

1. That is circular reasoning because how did all those atheists and agnostics become "believers" in the Bible if the only way to get there was as you say "to already be a believer"?

2. The Bible does contain evidence that it is inspired, and can be accessed by one who is willing to measure objective reality as was shown earlier in the case of the devout atheist evolutionist, professor of biology -- that became a believer a creationist because of the reality of Bible predictions proven to be true.

There are some holes in that. It is possible to accept Christ without believing that the Genesis stories are an accurate historical account

I am responding to someone who has on their profile "atheist" and they speak in general of the idea that the Bible is not from God, not a text that God inspired and that only those who already believe it... believe it. (the very definition of a tautology or circular argument).

Your profile says that you are "other religion" so I don't know if you join Kylie in that claim that the Bible is not inspired by God or not. But suffice it to say that the "mere existence" of a T.E. that happens to also be a Christian does not change the point given that Atheists do not join them in saying "God inspired all of the Bible except for its claims about His work as Creator". The Atheist POV is consistent in that it denies all of the Bible as being a text inspired or authored by God rather than engaging in pick-and-choose. So you have to give them credit for that much.

I point to the problem in that "believers believe because they already are believers" argument by pointing to the irrefutable fact of large numbers of atheists and agnostics that have become Bible believing Christians.

 

[BobRyan]

If your opinions are unacceptable in a Christian forum perhaps you should reconsider them. But I am surprised to hear of such a thing from a Dispensationalist for whom, if I am not mistaken, the entire Bible represents the plan of our salvation. Even for those Christians who are not Dispensationalists, our salvation in Christ is the overriding theme of the work.

The Bible answers the question "salvation from what?"..
The Bible answers the question "how did mankind become lost in the first place?"
The Bible answers the question "how is it that God is just, loving and merciful in creating mankind - then condemning mankind for sin -- then offering the gospel solution?"
The Bible answers the question "why did God Himself choose to die for the sins of mankind?"
The bible answers the question "how long as this broken system of sin, disease and suffering been going on ?"
The Bible answers the question "why do animals try to kill humans if God is the Creator of both?"
The Bible answers the question "what is the definition of marriage"
The Bible answers the question "where did the devil come from"
The Bible answers the question "What defines right from wrong?"
The Bible answers the question "is God arbitrary or just, fair, righteous, loving and merciful"

 

[Allandavid]

I’m not disrespecting your beliefs. You willfully don’t believe in God, and your op is deliberately trying to suppress the truth. My belief is to share the gospel. I’m not trying to silence you.

Yes you are disrespecting another’s beliefs...

“Unless you repent and believe the gospel, you will be judged by this evidence.”

That’s a threat. It may not be one that you devised yourself, but you repeat it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes you are disrespecting another’s beliefs...

“Unless you repent and believe the gospel, you will be judged by this evidence.”

That’s a threat. It may not be one that you devised yourself, but you repeat it.

Doesn't it stand to reason that, in a forum where you have a Heinz-57 blend of beliefs, that some are going to clash?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes you are disrespecting another’s beliefs...

“Unless you repent and believe the gospel, you will be judged by this evidence.”

That’s a threat. It may not be one that you devised yourself, but you repeat it.

ok but - other than "I believe different " what are you proposing for the thread topic?

 

[BobRyan]

Of course I affirm the Gospels--they are the heart of Christianity. But I will say one more time, that I affirm that the Bible in its entirety is the inspired and authoritative word of God. If you can't accept that then perhaps you had just better let it go.

in reality - you proposed a scenario where I "preach against you" and I countered with "why would I do that? I believe everyone has free will".

 

[Speedwell]

Are you backing off from this then, because your words are quite different:
If so, I'm glad to hear it.

No, I am not backing off, I am doubling down. What do you think the truth of the Bible consists in?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Paul is explaining that men know God, and if they deny God it’s because they are suppressing that truth. And they do so because of unrighteousness.

Sounds like a bronze-age Freud... I suspect he had no idea what a simple lack of belief is like. Do you believe in Horus? Anubis? Zeus? You know about them - do you deny that any of them is God? are you suppressing that truth? Are you doing so because of unrighteousness?

 

[Speedwell]

in reality - you proposed a scenario where I "preach against you" and I countered with "why would I do that? I believe everyone has free will".

That was just a story, Bob, which happened to have two imaginary characters named Speedwell and BobRyan, intended to simplify a point in an amusing way which you seem to have difficulty grasping: that a prophet, as inspired by the Holy Spirit, originates the prophetic claim. The Bible reports it. The authors of the report may also be inspired--to get it right--but that is a separate question.

 

[Allandavid]

Doesn't it stand to reason that, in a forum where you have a Heinz-57 blend of beliefs, that some are going to clash?

And there are rules in place that supposedly deal with those clashes. To repeat, if I claim that your beliefs are false, that your Bible is fictitious, that your god was manufactured by man, I will almost certainly receive a penalty, as I have in the past.

The site rules claim that my religious stance will likewise be respected.