Kylie's Evidence Challenge

[Kylie]

From a discussion with Radrook in the Coney Challenge thread, we spoke for a bit about whether or not a person would be willing to change their mind about their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) given sufficient evidence.

So that's the question - Regardless of whatever your position is on the existence of God, would you be willing to change your viewpoint if you were given good enough evidence?

Obviously, for the purposes of this thread, the evidence in question is hypothetical. It does not actually need to exist. So if you would say, "Yes, I would change my viewpoint, although I couldn't imagine what evidence would be sufficient to do that," you'd choose yes.

I'd also like to hear discussions on what that evidence could be, even if just hypothetically.

For me, yes, I would change my viewpoint in a second, given evidence that withstands thorough testing.

 

[Skreeper]

From a discussion with Radrook in the Coney Challenge thread, we spoke for a bit about whether or not a person would be willing to change their mind about their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) given sufficient evidence.

So that's the question - Regardless of whatever your position is on the existence of God, would you be willing to change your viewpoint if you were given good enough evidence?

Obviously, for the purposes of this thread, the evidence in question is hypothetical. It does not actually need to exist. So if you would say, "Yes, I would change my viewpoint, although I couldn't imagine what evidence would be sufficient to do that," you'd choose yes.

I'd also like to hear discussions on what that evidence could be, even if just hypothetically.

For me, yes, I would change my viewpoint in a second, given evidence that withstands thorough testing.

Yes, I would definitely change my position and believe a god exists when sufficient evidence has been presented.
I'm not really sure what that evidence would be though when we're talking about a non-interactive god.

In the case of the Christian god I see it this way: According to the Bible this god wants me to know him and to have a relationship with him. Since he is all-knowing he knows exactly what would convince me but so far hasn't done any of it. So either that god doesn't exist or he doesn't care whether I believe in him or not.

 

[tyke]

Yes I would change my view on a god's existence, but only if it were really, really, really good evidence. Visions and dreams and voices and other peoples anecdotes wouldn't do it.

Dunno the type of evidence that would convince me though!

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I chose the "Yes I believe but depending on the evidence" option, though, as you've suggested, it's not so easy to work out what the evidence should be.

I follow Jesus because I believe his teachings really are different, and they really do work so I think the evidence would need to be based on something like that. For example, I'd need to be shown that neighbor loving is neither good nor has any real purpose.

 

[Freodin]

To answer the OP question: yes, I would change my views, and though I have some ideas about what kind of evidence I would accept, I am sure there might be other approaches to evidence that I do not have any ideas about.

 

[Skreeper]

I follow Jesus because I believe his teachings really are different, and they really do work so I think the evidence would need to be based on something like that. For example, I'd need to be shown that neighbor loving is neither good nor has any real purpose.

So you think before Jesus came along nobody loved their neighbor?
Why is it important that Jesus said this? There are other religions that also have very good moral lessons.
And Jesus also said a bunch of things I find highly immoral. And none of this really addresses the question whether a god exists.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Hi skreeper. It looks like this isn't your first time around on a discussion like this! You seem prepared for battle.

So you think before Jesus came along nobody loved their neighbor?

No.

Why is it important that Jesus said this?

Actually, the part which made Jesus' command new is the "...as I have loved you", part. You're right that love existed before Jesus came around, but Jesus expressed his love in a way which others had not yet expressed before and I'm not talking about just his death on the cross. I'm not sure how much you know about the specifics of what Jesus taught, but then again many Christians don't know either!

There are other religions that also have very good moral lessons.

I don't think Jesus himself limited sincerity to any one particular religion. Jesus said that the HS is like the wind; we can't always see where it comes from or where it goes; it blows where ever it wants to.

And Jesus also said a bunch of things I find highly immoral.

Like what?

And none of this really addresses the question whether a god exists.

If that's the case then you're shooting yourself in the foot, aren't you? Why write a post which doesn't address the issues and then brag about it?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It's called a hustle, sweetheart!

*gets goosebumps* XD

I look forward to some stimulating debate with you, Skreeper.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: - Acts 17:27

Which is why we Pentecostals recommend getting the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. With it comes a spiritual power that can be felt.

 

[dickyh995]

Of course yes I would change my belief if presented with appropriate evidence. The deeper question is what sort of evidence would be convincing enough.

 

[dickyh995]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: - Acts 17:27

Which is why we Pentecostals recommend getting the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. With it comes a spiritual power that can be felt.

Um...what? Why this insistence of taking well evidenced scientific theories and trying to shoehorn your god or some belief into that theory? What evidence do you have that there is such a thing as three varieties of E=MC2 whatever that might mean?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The deeper question is what sort of evidence would be convincing enough.

I'm quite keen to hear this from an atheist's point of view. What evidence would be enough for you?

 

[dickyh995]

I'm quite keen to hear this from an atheist's point of view. What evidence would be enough for you?

Measurable, Testable, Repeatable.

 

[rockytopva]

Um...what? Why this insistence of taking well evidenced scientific theories and trying to shoehorn your god or some belief into that theory? What evidence do you have that there is such a thing as three varieties of E=MC2 whatever that might mean?

What else can you call virtue? It is a spiritual element that proceeds from our mass! How do we pick up the spiritual E/c2? Plato's Meno is a dialogue in which Socrates and Meno discuss human virtue: whether or not it can be taught, whether it is shared by all human beings, and whether it is one quality or many. After discussion with Anytus, Socrates and Meno return to the subject of whether Virtue can be taught. "To sum up our enquiry," Socrates concludes, "the result seems to be that virtue is neither natural nor acquired, but an instinct given by God to the virtuous."

Meno's theme is also being dealt in the dialogue of Protagoras, where, Plato finally puts Socrates to conclude with the opposite conclusion 'That virtue can be taught.' It is important to conclude that virtue is in different departments than knowledge. One may have an understanding as vast as the great outdoors... And not a thing in the heart!

Along with Socrates I must say that virtue is neither natural nor acquired, but an instinct given by God to the virtuous.

 

[dickyh995]

What else can you call virtue? It is a spiritual element that proceeds from our mass! How do we pick up the spiritual E/c2? Plato's Meno is a dialogue in which Socrates and Meno discuss human virtue: whether or not it can be taught, whether it is shared by all human beings, and whether it is one quality or many. After discussion with Anytus, Socrates and Meno return to the subject of whether Virtue can be taught. "To sum up our enquiry," Socrates concludes, "the result seems to be that virtue is neither natural nor acquired, but an instinct given by God to the virtuous."

Meno's theme is also being dealt in the dialogue of Protagoras, where, Plato finally puts Socrates to conclude with the opposite conclusion 'That virtue can be taught.' It is important to conclude that virtue is in different departments than knowledge. One may have an understanding as vast as the great outdoors... And not a thing in the heart!

Along with Socrates I must say that virtue is neither natural nor acquired, but an instinct given by God to the virtuous.

To quote the late, great Hitch, "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Now please explain how you came to determine that virtue is a spiritual element that proceeds from our mass and how one can test that claim?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Measurable, Testable, Repeatable.

Not a particularly satisfying answer. Mind being more specific?

 

[Freodin]

I'm quite keen to hear this from an atheist's point of view. What evidence would be enough for you?

If you consider it carefully, this question is rather easy to answer.

The evidence would be either of two types.
First would be a piece of evidence that you did consider, would consider to be sufficient, but did not get.
I do have such an idea of evidence that I would consider... and every time I ask for it - reasonably, I think - I only get excuses for why I do not get it.

The second would be evidence that you did not yet consider, perhaps didn't even imagine... but will find sufficient when you encounter it. Which you haven't yet.

 

[rockytopva]

Behold the universal timeline...

300 - 285 Billion Years
285 - 270 Billion Years
270 - 255 Billion Years
255 - 240 Billion Years
240 - 225 Billion Years
225 - 210 Billion Years
210 - 195 Billion Years
195 - 180 Billion Years
180 - 165 Billion Years
165 - 150 Billion Years
150 - 135 Billion Years
135 - 120 Billion Years
120 - 105 Billion Years
105 - 90 Billion Years
90 - 75 Billion Years
75 - 60 Billion Years
60 - 45 Billion Years
45 - 30 Billion Years
30 - 15 Billion Years
15 - 0 Billion Years
0 - -15 Billion Years --- The earth age happened here - Our lifespan is in this slot
-15 - -30 Billion Years
-30 - -45 Billion Years
-45 - -60 Billion Years
-60 - -75 Billion Years
-75 - -90 Billion Years
-90 - -105 Billion Years
-105 - -120 Billion Years
-120 - -135 Billion Years
-135 - -150 Billion Years
-150 - -165 Billion Years
-165 - -180 Billion Years
-180 - -195 Billion Years
-195 - -210 Billion Years
-210 - -225 Billion Years
-225 - -240 Billion Years
-240 - -255 Billion Years
-255 - -270 Billion Years
-270 - -285 Billion Years
-285 - -300 Billion Years
-300 - -315 Billion Years


As eternity and mass endure forever, the mass of the earth was something else 300 billion years ago. The plasma could have cooled into mass and the mass heated back to plasma many times in this time frame.

Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. - James 4:14

In the grand scale of things our life is just a vapour, which appears just for a little time. On the eternal scale we cannot afford to be wrong!

 

[dickyh995]

Well, to be more clear. You make a claim about the existence of a god. You need evidence to back up that claim. That piece of evidence needs to be testable, i.e. what experiment can be performed to test your hypothesis with the evidence presented. That experiment needs to be measurable, i.e what measures will support or falsify your hypothesis. Then that experiment needs to repeatable by other labs to confirm/falsify the results.

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Behold! God longs for his plasma energy back!

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

The elements will soon turn back into the plasma from whence they were forged!